Brexit and the Consequences

Look here matey... :LOL::LOL::LOL:

1. Single currency you say. Nigel Lawson wanted in Gordon Brown thought no way. Get your facts straight. UK was never going to join and was waiting to see outcome. I studied this stuff. Mr Dyson was also a strong join Euro clubber. Falling over yourself in your delusion about what's right and what's skewed up.

2. UK and EU borders and mass influx do to with wars and refugees. The whole Syrian war is about getting oil and gas into the Mediterranean to supply European gas and oil needs for the next 20 years. I'm sure what with all the Arab spring rising and they don't like our freedoms and democracy crap which you so strongly supported along with your yankee master is the result of all this mess you find your self in. Absolutely nothing to do with free movement of labbour in EU.

Once again, nothing to stop UK employing custom border controls and keeping non-EU-ers out. Same goes for your Italians and Austrian and the French. Weren't they the ones cosy and paly with Gaddafi along with the UK.

Fact and Fiction you still got that UKIP poster in your head with war torn refugees trying to flood in from Syria, Libya and Afghanistan. You are seriously in denial.

3. I can see Trump building the wall yep. True to his word. Man does what he says. Great deal maker. I'm sure your politiicians will also stop the riff raff from flooding in with their border controls :LOL::LOL::LOL: Assuming riff raff don't leave of their own accord first as all the jobs leave for Europe.


Wages will not rise that's for sure as jobs will leave but prices will rise as pound plummets.


Seeing it occur already what proof do you need??? You dreamer you :LOL::LOL::LOL:


Your funny. I like you :)
 
Questions for Atilla:

Why do YOU think people voted in the majority to leave the EU? And why do you think so many people voted to remain? Why, in your opinion is similar happening in other EU states?
 
sminicooper said:
I think that we are seeing a significant change in politics. The EU has failed the younger generation and they've had enough.
Click to expand...

I think that the failure lies with current models of democracy. Dissatisfaction with traditional parties is rife throughout Europe. The UK is no exception but things have not yet got bad enough for there to be enough enthusiasm for a serious bid at changing things. The granma of parliaments is today that nice old dear who's a bit soft in the head but usually means well. Time for some euthanasia.
 
revolution ?

cantagril said:
I think that the failure lies with current models of democracy. Dissatisfaction with traditional parties is rife throughout Europe. The UK is no exception but things have not yet got bad enough for there to be enough enthusiasm for a serious bid at changing things. The granma of parliaments is today that nice old dear who's a bit soft in the head but usually means well. Time for some euthanasia.
Click to expand...


This might shed some light on "populism" which some say is evil whilst others say it is the mass of people pizzed off with the status quo whilst the gap between the have and have not is widening. Things like the young having difficulty buying houses, lack of training for jobs that are sourced cheaply from overseas, the list goes on.
trump is a case in point where people showed what they thought of the "elites" but not looking closely at what they elected. even so, he seems to have a big following.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-right-wing-populism-on-the-rise-across-the-world
 
neil said:
This might shed some light on "populism" which some say is evil whilst others say it is the mass of people pizzed off with the status quo whilst the gap between the have and have not is widening.
Click to expand...

Populism in itself is not bad - Popular government equally so. Any system or movement whether it be popular or no can be perceived as "good" or "bad" (take western style democracy against absolute monarchy, totalitarianism, fascism etc etc) and the people within it - be they running the system or being run by it. Looking at Fascism and Communism: they were both born of Popular movements started with the best of intentions and we all know how they turned out. Current discomfort with Populism is strongest with those who understand (or can remember) where it can lead in the hands of the wrong sort of leader.

I would argue that the strength of the EU is precisely its inability to get everybody singing off the same hymn sheet but still enables them to follow whichever particular thread of democracy. This is not to say that the europeans have not made/ don't make crap decisions - they did and they do and their name is Legion....but then again it's exactly the same on this side of the ditch.
 
man the barricades

cantagril said:
Populism in itself is not bad - Popular government equally so. Any system or movement whether it be popular or no can be perceived as "good" or "bad" (take western style democracy against absolute monarchy, totalitarianism, fascism etc etc) and the people within it - be they running the system or being run by it. Looking at Fascism and Communism: they were both born of Popular movements started with the best of intentions and we all know how they turned out. Current discomfort with Populism is strongest with those who understand (or can remember) where it can lead in the hands of the wrong sort of leader.

People argue that the strength of the EU is precisely its inability to get everybody singing off the same hymn sheet but still enables them to follow whichever particular thread of democracy. This is not to say that the europeans have not made/ don't make crap decisions - they did and they do and their name is Legion....but then again it's exactly the same on this side of the ditch.
Click to expand...

Or those with their noses in the biggest pig troughs, MEP's etc. Those that rather employ you on zero hour contracts or making those that work for one employer ( a certain London plumbing firm among others) register as self employed thus losing holiday and sickness entitlements etc. Lack of affordable housing, pensions rights that are inferior to the older generations - the list goes on. At least the EU had certain workers rights albeit the UK opted out of a couple. It seems it is the younger generation that are looking at Corbyn as an alternative to being trapped in a system that feeds off the backs of the working youngster who finds life increasingly unfair under the control of those who prefer the status quo.
 
neil said:
Or those with their noses in the biggest pig troughs, MEP's etc. Those that rather employ you on zero hour contracts or making those that work for one employer ( a certain London plumbing firm among others) register as self employed thus losing holiday and sickness entitlements etc. Lack of affordable housing, pensions rights that are inferior to the older generations - the list goes on. At least the EU had certain workers rights albeit the UK opted out of a couple. It seems it is the younger generation that are looking at Corbyn as an alternative to being trapped in a system that feeds off the backs of the working youngster who finds life increasingly unfair under the control of those who prefer the status quo.
Click to expand...

I grant you that those on the gravy train are somewhat loath to alight; however, the scale of the upheaval necessary bring about a systemic change and derail the train is not something that any of us would consciously and deliberately try to bring about. The odd spot of recreational rioting and some opportunistic looting is a long way from the kind of societal collapse required.

In the meantime, the winter of our Brexit discontent will turn to spring and eventually, inglorious summer as other issues come to the fore once more. The sacred cows (or are they elephants - it's all so confusing these days) of the NHS, the Education System, the Armed Forces, the Railways and so on need to be addressed no matter which clique of incompetents are attempting to govern and whether we're pals with the EU or not.
 
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Signalcalc said:
Questions for Atilla:

Why do YOU think people voted in the majority to leave the EU? And why do you think so many people voted to remain? Why, in your opinion is similar happening in other EU states?
Click to expand...

There is no single answer to this but some key reasons quoted are;

1. Protest against mass influx of refugees as a consequence of Iraq/Syria wars and Arab spring uprising including Libya. Whilst the Calais fiasco stands out in peoples mind the number of peeps coming from there pales into insignificance from the number of university students who graduate and subsequently choose to live and work in the UK. Students represented one third of migrant numbers.

I keep telling ya folks but you just don't get the numbers game.

Based on google, 8% of UK population is non-British and just over half is European so that's approx 4-5%. 2.9m European live here and 1.2m Brits live over there in Europe. Net effect is 1.7m Europeans live over here over a UK pop of 63m approx.


However, based on media coverage of Calais one is led into thinking they are all chancers with no skills or money trying to catch a free ride. Moreover, the French were helpless because UK benefits more generous than EU. Cameron could have easily brought UK to be in line with rest of EU. Of course it was deliberate Tory policy to supress wage inflationary pressures and grow GDP. Same bloggers who think Brexit is going to raise wages are deluding them selves but time will tell.

Also, since 1991 more British Citizen leave the UK and not return. Trend continues. I fear that number will also increase with Brexit as UK becomes a cold wet and damp Island with many arthritic geriatrics who continue to talk about the wars they survived for so long.

2. There is then the Northern chappies o have nothing to lose and like a good moan. North South divide is plain to see. Nothing to do with EU who provides loads of regional grants (long discontinued by Thatcher but I've lost count how many times repeated - Northerners and now the Welsh simply don't get it). Geographically, the North will always lag and be behind South. Simple maths and good business about proximity to ones market place.

3. Cowboy builders who don't like better skilled competition from EU builders who are indeed far superior in skill at better rates based on my personal experience.

4. Simple caveman campaigning message that if Johnny foreigner wasn't in the country sitting on a public transport seat or in the queue for the GP surgery or whatever, than you'd have less time to wait and there'd be more homes and seats vacant for you. Blah blah blah you know the rest. Simple caveman logic. Works. Bet you are all thinking yeah Brexit makes sense less send them all back home and there'll be more of what's left for the rest of us. Until of course you realise the GP doctor is Asian, the train or bus drivers are foreign, or ticket guy is non-British or your supermarket till operator is not white etc etc etc... You go to use the toilet on the train and Johnny foreigner hasn't cleaned it and white man can't handle brown stuff. You get the picture? But all that takes an extra brain cell to think not one but two steps into the reasoning process and that's where the super white aryan race fails. Much like daleks who can't handle steps and they think they'll conquer the world. Muhahahahahahahah what a joke.

5. Then there are Grumpy ol Gits and sweet Lil ol Ladies GOGs and LOLs (haha) who'd wish the place would be as they remember in the 60s when we were right and mighty everyone knew whether they were for communism or capitalism and life was simple.

6. Finally, there was a touch of resentment so why not stick two fingers up at the establishment because nobody likes experts and our proud Brit politicians told us so and we prefer to believe what we like in alignment with our pov than something that seems disagreeable with our interests.

Won't mention about the lies and deceits as selling hope is better than selling fear. No brainer right?

See how this logic works for you??? :)



PS 7. Forgot to mention it was the UK who established the EU to keep Germany in check and the union has worked so fantastically well Germany has no interest in starting wars all over the place but UK still playing Empire games selling WMD to the Saudies whilst they kill innocent civilians in Yemen. UK then has the audacity to lecture China on their human rights record about containing some student half brain uprising. You gotta laf.

PS 8. UK also insisted on pushing through 40 years of good animal husbandry standards and NFU wanted 80% of all regulations and directives surrounding food products and standards but this was sold to the British public as a negative. THE SAME FOUR EYED TWIT CALLED govey IS NOW GOING ROUND TALKING ABOUT RAISING BRITISH STANDARDS AGAIN whilst farming community scratching head and ar5e WTF is going on here? :).


Absolutely hilarious stuff.


Enjoy :)
 
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Another brexiteers’ dream bites the dust.

I see the US have offered a substantially worse airline rights deal than we have now as part of the EU. “You can’t just scratch out EU and put in UK.” they say.

‘Course it was supposed to be softball, not hardball, between us and US wasn’t it? So another Brexit dream falls at the hurdle of reality.
 
On the nail article.

Finding it very hard to believe UK pop can be sooo easilly misled.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/give-voters-three-clears-choices-over-brexit-9tjfhxkgm

Power was at the heart of the argument about Brexit. That was what Brexiteers promised. Voters would take back control. Freed from the tiresome restrictions imposed by an interfering continent, a buccaneering Britain would be independent, rich and free.

There were three pillars to this promise. The first was that the EU would give us a uniquely advantageous deal, since it needed to trade with us more than we needed the EU. The second was that the rest of the world would be eager to sign great new deals with us. The third was that we would be a stronger presence on the world stage; as Boris Johnson put it in the hours after the vote, Britain now had a huge opportunity to find its voice in the world again.

There was always a curious, naive sentimentality about these beliefs. They coupled a demonisation of the EU with a simultaneous faith that in the future both it and other countries would obligingly offer us just what we wanted.

Now those Brexiteer fantasies about our glorious future are dissolving in the harsh light of economics and realpolitik. The cold truth of Britain’s weakness is being exposed as the power players we depend on, from the EU to the US to the foreign companies investing here, are making it brutally clear that they will always act in their own interests and that we no longer have sufficient weight to stand up for ours.

The EU has flatly rejected Theresa May’s and Philip Hammond’s latest tortuously crafted demands for a comprehensive trade deal. Britain cannot retain most of the advantages of membership without the obligations. As long as it sticks to its red lines, the new relationship will be limited, with “frictions” and “negative economic consequences”.

Just as the fiction that our trade with the EU would be largely undamaged was being demolished, so too was the fantasy that a new relationship with other powerful economies might replace and surpass the trade we are going to lose. Here it is the US that has been the great hope of Brexiteers. May’s government has been cravenly sticking close to President Trump and his casual claim last year that he’d give us a great deal, because, as cabinet ministers have privately confessed, “he’s all we’ve got left”.

Just why any intelligent politician would have taken a passing Trump assertion seriously is a mystery, and this week that hope too has blown up. It’s not only Trump’s gleeful plans to ignite a trade war that have exposed this president’s lack of concern for any other country’s needs, it’s the opening negotiations between Britain and America over airline rights after Brexit that should chill us.

Britain had hoped to replicate the rights its airlines have now as an EU member. Instead the US has offered a substantially worse deal, one that would hit both BA and Virgin, with one negotiator saying: “You can’t just scratch out ‘EU’ and put in ‘UK’.” This hardball treatment from a close ally is ominous. Britain will have to renegotiate more than 700 trading agreements with other countries post Brexit, and it wants these to continue as before. That is sheer naivety.

Far from gaining power from Brexit we are losing it, fast. Huge investors in Britain, including Vauxhall, Airbus and Unilever, warn that they plan to cut jobs here if they are going to lose easy access to the huge markets of the EU. The government’s own predictions see the economic hit from different Brexits as cutting growth by between 2 and 8 per cent. Sir John Major, Tony Blair, former ambassadors and a former head of MI6 are all warning that our international influence will shrink fast if we continue down this path of diminishing our economic and political power. As Brexit becomes reality, this can only get worse.

This spiral of weakness is not what voters chose. It is so far from what they were promised that it would be a deception to take us out of Europe on this agenda. But if parliament were to reject such a damaging outcome, many Brexiteers would feel betrayed.

There is a better solution. There is now a powerful case for holding a second referendum once the EU deal is agreed and before we leave next March, not as a rerun but to allow voters to decide whether the Brexit on offer is what they want.

The fatal flaw of the first referendum was that the simplicity of the binary question, in or out, offered no clarity on what Brexit should mean in practice. A second vote would instead offer three clear, practical options, with the implications of each spelt out. It would be impeccably democratic because these three would span the political waterfront: the government’s deal, no deal, or remaining in the EU. It would do so by holding votes in two rounds, a week apart, in the style of the French presidential election. In the first week one option would be knocked out. In the second the electorate would decide between the remaining two.

The great advantage of this double vote is that it would concentrate the mind on real alternatives, not lies or dreams. If Remain lost in week one, Europhiles would have to stop grumbling and decide their own preference for May’s deal or the WTO. If “no deal” were knocked out, the hardest Brexiteers would equally have to accept that the country didn’t want this degree of economic shock. Whatever the result, nobody would be able to argue any longer that the nation didn’t know what it was doing over Brexit.

The world is bleaker and more menacing than it looked 21 months ago. With a decision as momentous as this, its voters should be allowed the final choice.


The whole objective of the EU is it negotiates on our behalf with far greater bargaining power with a big market of 500m with high disposable incomes.

Never easy negotiating any deal or agreement? I mean just look at Trump the great deal maker and he can't even make deals even in his own party let alone the world. UK not much different. Bickering fools...
 
If only the blockchain was being used, there would be none of this bluff and double-bluff, poker face nonesense. We could all have a vote on each individual issue and matters would be settled by irrefutable democracy rather than the hotch potch of political interference and media agendas that we currently have.
 
Signalcalc said:
If only the blockchain was being used, there would be none of this bluff and double-bluff, poker face nonesense. We could all have a vote on each individual issue and matters would be settled by irrefutable democracy rather than the hotch potch of political interference and media agendas that we currently have.
Click to expand...

IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

Rudyard Kipling.
 
sminicooper said:
IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs ..............Then maybe you just don't understand the situation(y)
Click to expand...


Eheeemmm - what you suggest really is not clever at all. You get to keep your head and others lose theirs.


Think about it... Unless I've missed something... Who is the loser? :LOL:
 
This thread should have been titled: I'm a remainer please argue with me, PS I wont change my mind
 
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