Signalcalc
Veteren member
- Messages
- 4,670
- Likes
- 1,031
counter_violent
Legendary member
- Messages
- 12,636
- Likes
- 3,780
barjon
Legendary member
- Messages
- 10,752
- Likes
- 1,863
“A cabal of five Brexiteers - Micheal Gove, Andrea Leadsom, Liam Fox, Chris Gayling and Penny Mordaunt - will hold a “breakfast club” meeting to draw up a rival plan to May’s Brexit deal”
Blimey, after all this time they are finally going to have a go at coming up with something tangible. Wowee!!
Meanwhile the rest of the Brexit crew merely content themselves with cutting chunks out of TM for not standing up to the bully boys of the EU without offering anything that is likely to be in anyway acceptable to even the most gentlemanly EU negotiator.
Of course, May’s plan is weak which is only a reflection of the weakness of the hand she has had to play. Pretty good demonstration of where the real power resides methinks. Once upon a time that power was ours and something which we used to hold with pride even if the rest of the world saw us as the bully boys.
Blimey, after all this time they are finally going to have a go at coming up with something tangible. Wowee!!
Meanwhile the rest of the Brexit crew merely content themselves with cutting chunks out of TM for not standing up to the bully boys of the EU without offering anything that is likely to be in anyway acceptable to even the most gentlemanly EU negotiator.
Of course, May’s plan is weak which is only a reflection of the weakness of the hand she has had to play. Pretty good demonstration of where the real power resides methinks. Once upon a time that power was ours and something which we used to hold with pride even if the rest of the world saw us as the bully boys.
timsk
Legendary member
- Messages
- 8,594
- Likes
- 3,320
We'll make a brexiteer of you yet, Jon!
I confess that I'm a tad confused about what's happening within the cabinet. After 'the deal' was officially published, there were the resignations - but the rest of cabinet all said they'd back it. Well, clearly the famous 5 don't back it and want to make changes to it - yet they still want to keep their ministerial positions. That doesn't make sense to me. I can say this without fear of ridicule, knowing that precious little in U.K. politics makes much sense to anyone anymore - so I'm in good company!
Tim.
Last edited:
counter_violent
Legendary member
- Messages
- 12,636
- Likes
- 3,780
We'll make a brexiteer of you yet, Jon!
I confess that I'm a tad confused about what's happening within the cabinet. After 'the deal' was officially published, there were the resignations - but the rest of cabinet all said they'd back it. Well, clearly the famous don't back it and want to make changes to it - yet they still want to keep their ministerial positions. That doesn't make sense to me. I can say this without fear of ridicule, knowing that precious little in U.K. politics makes much sense to anyone anymore - so I'm in good company!
Tim.
Simple business practice. You can better influence the outcome if you are positioned within. So the gang of 5 are basically saying that they will have a go at changing the policy. If they meet resistance from May, then they will walk and if as a Govt they meet resistance from the EU, then they will walk. The idea is, at least they will have tried.
One thing for sure, there is zero chance that this proposed plan is supported by voters and equally it will not get through parliament.
Last edited:
counter_violent
Legendary member
- Messages
- 12,636
- Likes
- 3,780
No, Mays plan is weak because that is intentionally her position on Brexit. If we had a leader who's position was "screw the EU", then the EU would perhaps be more inclined to engage constructively. With May at the helm, they have no need to compromise because she is doing their work for them. She is hopeless, but i'm quite convinced that she believes she's doing a great job
counter_violent
Legendary member
- Messages
- 12,636
- Likes
- 3,780
ERG Publication
Rebuttal of May's proposal.
http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wpe...ontent/uploads/2018/11/ERGYourRightToKnow.pdf
Rebuttal of May's proposal.
http://2mbg6fgb1kl380gtk22pbxgw-wpe...ontent/uploads/2018/11/ERGYourRightToKnow.pdf
Atilla
Legendary member
- Messages
- 20,773
- Likes
- 3,973
I agree with you here as Brexiteers have no plan none what so ever.
To clarify, we need to distinguish what plans we are talking about:
1. Current plan 585 doc - is only a transition plan to kick start exit plan. It is the divorce bill.
2. Post transition plans - not started, will effectively be our new trading position in EU after we exit. Transition plan above is a precursor for new negotiations to start after divorce period of living apart for two years or other...
3. Brexit plan - not started but much talked about what I term the hope and glory plan. We can do this and that. Reduce taxation and abolish all regulation which will miraculously provide the UK with increased wages, jobs, cheaper housing, teachers, police numbers, NHS resource and any other wishes you may have.
This lay of the land begs the question why bother with 1 & 2?
Last edited:
Atilla
Legendary member
- Messages
- 20,773
- Likes
- 3,973
Listened to Raab on Andrew Marr show.
Stand down all you Brexiteers coz he fully supports TM who is doing a difficult job but just didn't want to put his name down as the man who signed the transition deal, which he was responsible for and delivered. He reminded us it was started by Davis and not him so he wasn't really responsible for all of it. AND well you know being the first to jump sort of might put him in a good position in the queue to be next Tory leader.
Now wondering about a potential leadership contest. Can you imagine... Leadsom, Govey, Raab and Boris. Wow that'll be good. Moggy ruled him self out I think. But so did Govey and only two days later stabbed Boris to put himself in front.
Greatest show on earth with great minds falling over them selves over the greatest c0ckup in history. Somebody said Raab may have been premature with the charge of the cavalry at TM who he supports, not looking behind him to see how many other horses were following
Stand down all you Brexiteers coz he fully supports TM who is doing a difficult job but just didn't want to put his name down as the man who signed the transition deal, which he was responsible for and delivered. He reminded us it was started by Davis and not him so he wasn't really responsible for all of it. AND well you know being the first to jump sort of might put him in a good position in the queue to be next Tory leader.
Now wondering about a potential leadership contest. Can you imagine... Leadsom, Govey, Raab and Boris. Wow that'll be good. Moggy ruled him self out I think. But so did Govey and only two days later stabbed Boris to put himself in front.
Greatest show on earth with great minds falling over them selves over the greatest c0ckup in history. Somebody said Raab may have been premature with the charge of the cavalry at TM who he supports, not looking behind him to see how many other horses were following
NVP
Guest Author
- Messages
- 37,936
- Likes
- 2,142
in the words of Blackadder.......
this thing has more turns at the moment than a twisty turning thing .............
ok lets summarise what we know
1) no way the current deal will get through parliament .....i'm assuming that Europe will agree the deal though....
2) with the deal opposed (at whatever stage) May resigns at some point or another ...thats it
then its about how strongly the country feels about going for it
demand a re-negociation or we crash out ...no retreat no surrender
or we crawl back and remain..........
even as a staunch remainer I feel crashing out will be better than accepting the crap deal we have.....
of course if we were allowed to remain with full privaledges but on slightly better terms here and there ......that might be interesting
N
this thing has more turns at the moment than a twisty turning thing .............
ok lets summarise what we know
1) no way the current deal will get through parliament .....i'm assuming that Europe will agree the deal though....
2) with the deal opposed (at whatever stage) May resigns at some point or another ...thats it
then its about how strongly the country feels about going for it
demand a re-negociation or we crash out ...no retreat no surrender
or we crawl back and remain..........
even as a staunch remainer I feel crashing out will be better than accepting the crap deal we have.....
of course if we were allowed to remain with full privaledges but on slightly better terms here and there ......that might be interesting
N
sminicooper
Experienced member
- Messages
- 1,148
- Likes
- 329
Atilla
Legendary member
- Messages
- 20,773
- Likes
- 3,973
Atilla
Legendary member
- Messages
- 20,773
- Likes
- 3,973
Hi CV, do you read these links before you put them up?
Personally, I don't see anything devastating but on the contrary positives for membership of the EU.
1. We would hand over £39 billion of taxpayer’s money with nothing guaranteed in return.
I did some of my own calculations while back on these blogs and arrived at the same figure. This is fair for our continued membership for another two years plus approx 20bn on existing commitments on joint projects.
2. The UK will remain a ‘rule taker’ over large areas of EU law.
Well yes because this is what UK wants. UK wants to make the rules but not be bound by EU rules or be party to their implementation. I'm sorry but I'm lost here. Let's be fair. If UK wants to export to EU, she will still have to abide by rules, regulations and EU standards.
As before it was UK that wanted and hoisted many of the food and farming standards on to the EU. Check with the NFU.
Moreover, large part of EU good standards have helped UK citizens. Clean air and beaches come to mind. Brexiteers want to follow trumps approach of degregulation and ultra capitalism which will externalise all social costs. Beware of what you wishs for here comes ot mind. It was EU that prtoected us from the US TTIP as well. TTIP would have meant handing over sovereignty to US corporates (talk about globalisation) and reduced standards.
3. No exit from a ‘backstop’ Customs Union
Well this is a very complex affair as UK wish to pursue future trade relationships with other non-EU countries whilst being a member of EU is simply not possible. Won't bother explaining but SC should have some idea now and he may try to educate the public if he has any integrity on what his proposing and their consequence.
The question is why should it allow for UK to pick and choose and how would those rules which are in contradiction be managed. It really is farcical. It's a bit like marriage. UK wants to remain wedded to the EU, whilst it goes around sleeping with any other partner as well as the EU it desires. Not happening!
4. The Agreement creates internal borders within the UK.
Well yes, as there is a bit of a logistic problem here. Controlling borders is one thing but this opens a back door for EU to be screwed by NI/UK otherwise.
Personally, I don't see WTF Ireland or NI are bitching about but I don't obviously share their history or values. Cesspit of numpties if you ask me.
5. . The European Court of Justice (ECJ) will remain in control of the agreement and large areas of EU law directly effective in the UK.
Well yes if you wish to be part of the EU common market. Said this before as some body needs to exist between parties. Is the UK going to set some body up to resolve what ever disputes she may encounter with every other 27 member?
Really Brexiteers and Europsceptics shout a lot but what are they really saying and what do they want?
In summary, the combination of these measures means the United Kingdom will have not left the European Union but will instead be ‘half in and half out’. This will mean that we will become a ‘vassal state’ many of whose laws will have been created abroad and over which we have no influence. This is completely against the spirit of the 2017 referendum in which 17.4 million UK citizens voted to leave the European Union.
Well ofcourse, this is a transition period agreement, divorce settlement where we are still in for another two years.
Confused bunch of freaks. Wish someone would explain the spirit of the 2017 referendum to me. Anyone notice the typo? it's supposed to be 2016 right?
Attention to detail is just great.
Think about it. Have a ponder. Light a cigar. All the best
sminicooper
Experienced member
- Messages
- 1,148
- Likes
- 329
It wouldn't have shut them up but a clear referendum result to remain would have dulled their effectiveness. And of course, being democrats they would have accepted the result (of course, I don't expect you to agree with that!) – probably on a temporary basis only. But even after we "leave" the Remainers will be back won't they?
............. And you thought that Magna Carta, Henry's divorce and the Gunpowder plot were the last interesting & influential events in English politics
sminicooper
Experienced member
- Messages
- 1,148
- Likes
- 329
Hi CV, do you read these links before you put them up?
Personally, I don't see anything devastating but on the contrary positives for membership of the EU.
1. We would hand over £39 billion of taxpayer’s money with nothing guaranteed in return.
I did some of my own calculations while back on these blogs and arrived at the same figure. This is fair for our continued membership for another two years plus approx 20bn on existing commitments on joint projects.
2. The UK will remain a ‘rule taker’ over large areas of EU law.
Well yes because this is what UK wants. UK wants to make the rules but not be bound by EU rules or be party to their implementation. I'm sorry but I'm lost here. Let's be fair. If UK wants to export to EU, she will still have to abide by rules, regulations and EU standards.
As before it was UK that wanted and hoisted many of the food and farming standards on to the EU. Check with the NFU.
Moreover, large part of EU good standards have helped UK citizens. Clean air and beaches come to mind. Brexiteers want to follow trumps approach of degregulation and ultra capitalism which will externalise all social costs. Beware of what you wishs for here comes ot mind. It was EU that prtoected us from the US TTIP as well. TTIP would have meant handing over sovereignty to US corporates (talk about globalisation) and reduced standards.
3. No exit from a ‘backstop’ Customs Union
Well this is a very complex affair as UK wish to pursue future trade relationships with other non-EU countries whilst being a member of EU is simply not possible. Won't bother explaining but SC should have some idea now and he may try to educate the public if he has any integrity on what his proposing and their consequence.
The question is why should it allow for UK to pick and choose and how would those rules which are in contradiction be managed. It really is farcical. It's a bit like marriage. UK wants to remain wedded to the EU, whilst it goes around sleeping with any other partner as well as the EU it desires. Not happening!
4. The Agreement creates internal borders within the UK.
Well yes, as there is a bit of a logistic problem here. Controlling borders is one thing but this opens a back door for EU to be screwed by NI/UK otherwise.
Personally, I don't see WTF Ireland or NI are bitching about but I don't obviously share their history or values. Cesspit of numpties if you ask me.
5. . The European Court of Justice (ECJ) will remain in control of the agreement and large areas of EU law directly effective in the UK.
Well yes if you wish to be part of the EU common market. Said this before as some body needs to exist between parties. Is the UK going to set some body up to resolve what ever disputes she may encounter with every other 27 member?
Really Brexiteers and Europsceptics shout a lot but what are they really saying and what do they want?
In summary, the combination of these measures means the United Kingdom will have not left the European Union but will instead be ‘half in and half out’. This will mean that we will become a ‘vassal state’ many of whose laws will have been created abroad and over which we have no influence. This is completely against the spirit of the 2017 referendum in which 17.4 million UK citizens voted to leave the European Union.
Well ofcourse, this is a transition period agreement, divorce settlement where we are still in for another two years.
Confused bunch of freaks. Wish someone would explain the spirit of the 2017 referendum to me. Anyone notice the typo? it's supposed to be 2016 right?
Attention to detail is just great.
Think about it. Have a ponder. Light a cigar. All the best
I think that document shows (as you succinctly summarise above) what a rotten deal is being proposed.
The 585 page document is dense EU-speak legalese designed to ensure that any ordinary person can't understand it and would lose the will after a couple of dozen pages as I did. The ERG have done us a great favour with their "translation" – and it only needed 7 pages. Sir Humphrey and his mates really do know how to make things difficult when they get the go-ahead from their political "masters".
