Brexit and the Consequences

[timsk]

Hi Jon,

What a load of old codswallop, Tim .

Well Jon, I expect you're used to it by now!

. . . Just because your side won the vote (fairly marginally) it doesn't mean that I have to change my view that remain was the best option.

I'm not saying you do (see my last post to Split').

. . . Also, because I believe in democracy I, in common with the vast majority of remainers, go along with the result even though I continue to believe it's a mistake.

This makes no sense to me at all. You can't claim to believe in democracy on the one hand and then vote for something fundamentally undemocratic on the other. Talk about having one's cake and eating it, lol!

. . . So far as democracy is concerned I suggest you take a further look at the constitution and working of the EU. Sounds as though you've been suckered into the falsity of EU power being in the hands of "unelected bureaucrats".

I looked into it extensively prior to the vote. I started out with a natural bias in favour to remain. As the debate wore on, and the more I looked into it, the sad reality of the situation hit home. I wasn't suckered into voting to leave: I researched the facts and drew my own conclusions. IMO, it's the remainers who are the ones who've been suckered into the belief that the EU is a wonderful democratic place where everyone is equal and can have their say. If that truly was the case, then I too would have voted to remain and I expect they would have won a landslide victory.
Tim.

 

[barjon]

Hi Jon,

Well Jon, I expect you're used to it by now!


I'm not saying you do (see my last post to Split').


This makes no sense to me at all. You can't claim to believe in democracy on the one hand and then vote for something fundamentally undemocratic on the other. Talk about having one's cake and eating it, lol!


I looked into it extensively prior to the vote. I started out with a natural bias in favour to remain. As the debate wore on, and the more I looked into it, the sad reality of the situation hit home. I wasn't suckered into voting to leave: I researched the facts and drew my own conclusions. IMO, it's the remainers who are the ones who've been suckered into the belief that the EU is a wonderful democratic place where everyone is equal and can have their say. If that truly was the case, then I too would have voted to remain and I expect they would have won a landslide victory.
Tim.

So who, in your view, holds the power in the EU to make the undemocratic decisions you so deplore?

 

[timsk]

So who, in your view, holds the power in the EU to make the undemocratic decisions you so deplore?

The elite, the privileged few. Certainly not you or me!

Jon, the bottom line is that here in the U.K. - if the incumbent party is making a pig's ear of things, then we at least have the opportunity every five years to get shot of 'em and get in someone else who'll do any equally bad job. That's not an option with the EU.

Let's take a specific example. As you know, I live in the south west and I'm a recreational angler and, in the past, have had close ties with the local fishing community. I hate the fact that our fisherman can't fish our waters in the way they want and are forced under EU law to discard tonnes of perfectly good fish each year. That's criminal, IMO and there's bu88er all that they - or anyone else - can do about it. When we leave the EU, I firmly hope and expect that life for our fishermen will get a whole lot better. At the very least, they'll be allowed to fish their own waters and to land their catch.

Hopefully, outside of the EU, our fish stocks and the fishing industry will thrive much like it does in Iceland: Iceland's fishing industry 'better off outside' EU
Tim.

 

[Splitlink]

I'm not clear what you mean by "democracy is a luxury that only a few can afford",

Perhaps, I'm getting a bit off topic, here.

An American said, to Congress, that the world must be made safe for democracy.

Can you tell me of any other country, other than the US and UK, that have helped themselves more to the wealth of other nations than they have? Those that have
become nations by immigration, eg, US, Australia and Canada have, practically wiped out the natives.

They have pillaged and stolen from the word "go" and they are, still, doing it where they can. The problem that they have is that they have competition. Everywhere they have been has been in the name of democracy.

I am British and proud of it. But I am, also, realistic. In the UK, when wars have been declared, young men have gone out, fought and died in the name of deocracy, while the fat cat democrats have got richer at home.

Frankly, I'd just as soon live in a country where I am told what to do and, as long as I live by the rules, keep my nose clean, I live the same as those in the UK.

I'm ranting a bit, Tim! It will all be the same in a hundred years!

 

[forker]

What a load of old codswallop, Tim . Just because your side won the vote (fairly marginally) it doesn't mean that I have to change my view that remain was the best option. Also, because I believe in democracy I, in common with the vast majority of remainers, go along with the result even though I continue to believe it's a mistake.

So far as democracy is concerned I suggest you take a further look at the constitution and working of the EU. Sounds as though you've been suckered into the falsity of EU power being in the hands of "unelected bureaucrats".

Being democratic is to believe in equality between people. To drive this home; imagine the following 2 scenarios and let us know which one you think will result in a more equality:

scenario 1

28 people enter a room to discuss issues. Each person needs 28 translators so they can understand what everyone is saying so now the room has 784 people (refer to the image to get an idea of the scale of it). Each of the 28 comes from a different culture, has different beliefs, lives in a country with different dynamics (some are landlocked, some have ocean ports, all have different domestic issues).


scenario 2

UK members of parliament enter the house of commons. Everyone speaks the same language and everyone shares more or less the same culture, shares the same domestic issues and has a lot in common.


---------------------------
now who do you think will have a better chance of discussing issues and finding agreement? Democracy, in the context of the EU is not the same as it would be domestically.

 

[barjon]

The elite, the privileged few. Certainly not you or me!

Jon, the bottom line is that here in the U.K. - if the incumbent party is making a pig's ear of things, then we at least have the opportunity every five years to get shot of 'em and get in someone else who'll do any equally bad job. That's not an option with the EU.

Let's take a specific example. As you know, I live in the south west and I'm a recreational angler and, in the past, have had close ties with the local fishing community. I hate the fact that our fisherman can't fish our waters in the way they want and are forced under EU law to discard tonnes of perfectly good fish each year. That's criminal, IMO and there's bu88er all that they - or anyone else - can do about it. When we leave the EU, I firmly hope and expect that life for our fishermen will get a whole lot better. At the very least, they'll be allowed to fish their own waters and to land their catch.
Tim.

Yes, undoubtedly the accountability is much sharper here because a single government is responsible and can be voted out (to some extent that's an argument for a European Government along the lines of USA. Not that it appeals, though!)

So far as law is concerned the unelected commission can only propose. The Council of Ministers and EU Parliament must agree and if either one doesn't it is dead.

The Parliament is democratically elected and the Council composed of member states leaders of their democratically elected governments. Each has the right of veto which, again, kills any proposed legislation. Ours didn't choose to do that so far as the fishing was/is concerned.

I don't pretend everything in the EU garden is rosy, far from it. Just that our future lies together rather than apart.

 

[barjon]

Being democratic is to believe in equality between people. To drive this home; imagine the following 2 scenarios and let us know which one you think will result in a more equality:

scenario 1

28 people enter a room to discuss issues. Each person needs 28 translators so they can understand what everyone is saying so now the room has 784 people (refer to the image to get an idea of the scale of it). Each of the 28 comes from a different culture, has different beliefs, lives in a country with different dynamics (some are landlocked, some have ocean ports, all have different domestic issues).



scenario 2

UK members of parliament enter the house of commons. Everyone speaks the same language and everyone shares more or less the same culture, shares the same domestic issues and has a lot in common.

---------------------------
now who do you think will have a better chance of discussing issues and finding agreement? Democracy, in the context of the EU is not the same as it would be domestically.

Yes, agree absolutely. That's why you have to allow national governments a huge say in their own business.

 

[Atilla]

Being democratic is to believe in equality between people. To drive this home; imagine the following 2 scenarios and let us know which one you think will result in a more equality:

scenario 1

28 people enter a room to discuss issues. Each person needs 28 translators so they can understand what everyone is saying so now the room has 784 people (refer to the image to get an idea of the scale of it). Each of the 28 comes from a different culture, has different beliefs, lives in a country with different dynamics (some are landlocked, some have ocean ports, all have different domestic issues).

This scenario is incorrect. When interpreting the main language translated to is English. Then each of the other countries interpreter would relay this back. There are special cubicals for conference interpreting. In each cubical there may be two or three bodies. That's it. So maximum interpreters required is likely to be 100 or less.

scenario 2

UK members of parliament enter the house of commons. Everyone speaks the same language and everyone shares more or less the same culture, shares the same domestic issues and has a lot in common.


---------------------------
now who do you think will have a better chance of discussing issues and finding agreement? Democracy, in the context of the EU is not the same as it would be domestically.

So if Europe adopts English as its main language what happens to your argument then?

 

[forker]

So if Europe adopts English as its main language what happens to your argument then?

so lets assume the language barrier is removed. You still have the culture differences, the different geographic dynamics (landlocked, sea port) , you still have different domestic issues, and the list can go on. The fact is it will be harder to get 28 people in this context to agree than it would a domestic government. so whats your point?

 

[Splitlink]

Being democratic is to believe in equality between people. To drive this home; imagine the following 2 scenarios and let us know which one you think will result in a more equality:

scenario 1

28 people enter a room to discuss issues. Each person needs 28 translators so they can understand what everyone is saying so now the room has 784 people (refer to the image to get an idea of the scale of it). Each of the 28 comes from a different culture, has different beliefs, lives in a country with different dynamics (some are landlocked, some have ocean ports, all have different domestic issues).


scenario 2

UK members of parliament enter the house of commons. Everyone speaks the same language and everyone shares more or less the same culture, shares the same domestic issues and has a lot in common.


---------------------------
now who do you think will have a better chance of discussing issues and finding agreement? Democracy, in the context of the EU is not the same as it would be domestically.

Hi Forker,
Living in Europe, where everyone goes to Brussels and has his own translator is a serious problem, I agree. But it is anything, but undemocratic. There are many more undemocratic things going on here, than that!

That is not the point, though. The UK has voted to leave and you have left, as far as the Europeans are concerned. You seem to have some problem with that.
If we had sent the troops in, I would have agreed, that would have been undemocratic.

As it is, EU would like you to get on with it and they are anxious as to what it is you want to take with you in return for what?

Your Scenario 2 is what you want to believe and you have a right to do it. What is stopping you? Partly, I suspect, Summer Holidays.

Tim suggests that "cocking a snoot" at Brussels is part of it. That is only possible because we have a rule of law--just like you do, oddly enough--that allows you to do it.

I said this in a previous post. Procrastination is the thief of time and you have done a lot of that with the EU.

 

[Signalcalc]

Interesting to see the paradox that labour voters are now in. I expect the majority would have voted in and most would respect that democracy is the will of the people, yet Owen states that another vote is needed presumably in an attempt to overturn that vote. Corbin supporters won't know wether they are coming or going.

Was Corbin an inner or an outer?

 

[Splitlink]

Interesting to see the paradox that labour voters are now in. I expect the majority would have voted in and most would respect that democracy is the will of the people, yet Owen states that another vote is needed presumably in an attempt to overturn that vote. Corbin supporters won't know wether they are coming or going.

Was Corbin an inner or an outer?

Don't you believe that socialists, in general, have a a tendency to keep pegging away at "democratic" principles until they get what they want? Referendums are ideal for this. That way, they don't have to wait four years or get chucked out of government.

SNP is socialist and they, too, want another refendum.

Corbyn was, and is, a stayer. He, also, wants to stay in his job, now that he has it!

 

[Atilla]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...aces-hard-work-to-recover-from-brexit-setback

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the European Union needs to work hard to overcome the shock of Britain’s vote to leave, calling it a watershed moment as EU leaders ponder the way forward.

“We have begun a so-called process of reflection to explore in which areas we should develop further as a priority,” Merkel told reporters in the Estonian capital of Tallinn on Thursday. “All families occasionally need phases in which they think about where they go from here.”

Merkel is touring eastern Europe to canvass opinion among EU governments in preparation for a summit of all 28 leaders except U.K. Prime Minister Theresa May in Bratislava on Sept. 16. With stops in Prague later Thursday and Warsaw on Friday before returning to Berlin, Merkel plans to hold talks with 12 EU fellow leaders over the next 48 hours.

 

[forker]

Summit of all 28 leaders except the UK! Wouldn't that be 27 states? They really need check their work before its published.

 

[Atilla]

Summit of all 28 leaders except the UK! Wouldn't that be 27 states? They really need check their work before its published.

Yes and if you do read the article further they say so...

Merkel said Wednesday she “can allow the time” for the U.K. to decide what it wants from the EU in Brexit talks. The other 27 member countries will press ahead with “the European project” in the meantime, she said after arriving in Tallinn.

“As we have said, as long as Britain hasn’t submitted its application, we can’t answer the question of what kind of a relationship we envision,” Merkel said. The remaining EU countries have enough topics to discuss among themselves to “allow the time that Britain wants to take to figure out what relationship it wants with the EU.”

Two sides to every story. EU will press ahead and Mrs Merkel doing her round of good prep - project Brexit initiation sounding out feelings and ideas as Theresa May.

Where do the other states stand, what kind of outcome id desired and where the red lines are?

I love the way Germans work.

 

[Atilla]

Former head of the civil service Lord O'Donnell - now this person knows what's involved so we should sit up and listen to his approach.

I wouldn't 'rush' to invoke Article 50 - Lord O'Donnell
27 August 2016 Last updated at 09:06 BST
Former head of the civil service Lord O'Donnell says he would not be in a rush to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty - the step required to officially begin a EU exit.

"The probability of us not leaving is very very low and we need to get on and implement the people's decision to leave," he said.
"But it's not easy, it will take a lot of time."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37203678

 

[Oscar Reed]

Theresa May will not hold a parliamentary vote on Brexit before formally triggering Britain's withdrawal from the European Union

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-may-idUSKCN1120AK

 

[Splitlink]

I believe that Theresa May will be a good PM for the UK. She's been selected to do the job, is a realist and has her mind fixed on what needs to be done.

Time will tell and the least time she wastes will prove me right or wrong.

 

[counter_violent]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37210138

 

[forker]

This angers me so much. BBC news

'Migrants in Calais seeking asylum in the UK should be allowed to lodge their claim in France'

France can go find the biggest carrot growing in its farmlands and shove it right up its @rse