Brexit and the Consequences

[barjon]

I'd certainly concede that Blair meant well (as so many people with God on their side do) – and if he'd finished off all state sponsored terrorism for good, the world would be much better place now and he would probably be a hero. But I've always detected a certain desire for greatness and admiration by Blair – after all, don't all "great" politicians have successful wars? – And I suspect this is what he was after.

I think the sad thing about Blair (forget his politics – that's all just a matter of opinion isn't it?) is that he was a very clever man who could carry a nation with him but it didn't in the long run achieve all that much. But that's just my view. How about this counterfactual: if Blair had been Prime Minister during the 1930s and put a stop to Adolf, he actually would have been a great man but without World War II to prove it, we wouldn't have known .............

As always Barjon, a pleasure to hear your views.

He had a terrific strategic vision. For example, he wanted single point of contact between citizens and government instead of people having to deal with individual departments,agencies,quangos etc. This would have involved each department etc being prepared for others to stray into their bailiwicks. Didn't go down well with a lot of them who set about thwarting his plans - I'm somewhat ashamed to have been one of them. Blair thought floating the strategy would be enough. It died because he wasn't much good at forcing things through.

 

[Atilla]

Had the best strategic vision of all those I heard, but a useless “completer/finisher”. The war was all about stopping state sponsored terrorism by hitting one of the worst offenders - not a justifiable reason so WMD had to be invented to facilitate. It worked, too, but Blair can never brag about it so has to suffer all the WMD brickbats.

Do you really believe this?

UK and US are key perpetrators of regime change to install puppets in the name of national interest.

Look at all the deaths as a consequence not to mention millions in refugee status.

Look at Latin America.

As for Gadaffi he had a grand vision for Africa simply that he too was a puppet until he outgrew his glove and then had to be reigned back in much like Saddam and CIA.



When I hear state sponsored terrorism labels attributed by US or UK I have to laugh out loud. Been sowing the seeds of divide and rule for yonks.



War was all about the dollar standard as oil was being traded in Euros and US wanted to lay claims to the biggest oil fields in Kirkuk and Mosul.

That was after Saddam realised US and UK played a clever trick about creating war between Iraq and Iran whilst supplying both sides with WMD including gas. Let's not forget Oliver North's Iran-Contra affairs next to Raegan either.


State sponsored terrorism you say? Tough to beat the yanks in that league of nations. I thought everybody knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and it was all manufactured by the Saudie family and the neo-cons. They are even making hollywood movies about it.

 

[myattitude]

Blair might be being a little magnanimous by saying there would be no ISIS without the 2003 war, they're too far apart. A.Q in Iraq sure. But ISIS? They came to the fore when Obama pulled the troops out. By 2008, the Iraq insurgency was all but quelled.

Power vaccum in 2003 - Lead to 5 years insurgency.
Power vaccum in 2011 - Lead to rise of ISIS.

It was the power vacuum in both cases that allowed these groups to take over whole cities and regions. Blair accepting the flak for ISIS would be like Clinton taking the flak for 9/11.

Sorry for chiming in, it has nout to do with Brexit anyway, I just read the last page of this thread and stuck my nose in.

 

[Atilla]

Blair might be being a little magnanimous by saying there would be no ISIS without the 2003 war, they're too far apart. A.Q in Iraq sure. But ISIS? They came to the fore when Obama pulled the troops out. By 2008, the Iraq insurgency was all but quelled.

Power vaccum in 2003 - Lead to 5 years insurgency.
Power vaccum in 2011 - Lead to rise of ISIS.

It was the power vacuum in both cases that allowed these groups to take over whole cities and regions. Blair accepting the flak for ISIS would be like Clinton taking the flak for 9/11.

Sorry for chiming in, it has nout to do with Brexit anyway, I just read the last page of this thread and stuck my nose in.

Agreed my bad.

Best to stick to Brexit. Making sure we don't pick the sticky bit of the stick...

 

[barjon]

Do you really believe this?

UK and US are key perpetrators of regime change to install puppets in the name of national interest.

Look at all the deaths as a consequence not to mention millions in refugee status.

Look at Latin America.

As for Gadaffi he had a grand vision for Africa simply that he too was a puppet until he outgrew his glove and then had to be reigned back in much like Saddam and CIA.



When I hear state sponsored terrorism labels attributed by US or UK I have to laugh out loud. Been sowing the seeds of divide and rule for yonks.



War was all about the dollar standard as oil was being traded in Euros and US wanted to lay claims to the biggest oil fields in Kirkuk and Mosul.

That was after Saddam realised US and UK played a clever trick about creating war between Iraq and Iran whilst supplying both sides with WMD including gas. Let's not forget Oliver North's Iran-Contra affairs next to Raegan either.


State sponsored terrorism you say? Tough to beat the yanks in that league of nations.

Yes, I do.

US may be responsible for many things but sponsoring terrorism, arming and training terrorists as well as publicising their “victories” is not among them

You don’t see a lot good in the world, Atilla, do you

 

[Atilla]

Yes, I do.

US may be responsible for many things but sponsoring terrorism, arming and training terrorists as well as publicising their “victories” is not among them

You don’t see a lot good in the world, Atilla, do you

You mean like arming groups and calling them freedom fighters sure... Who armed the Mujahadin in Afghanistan when Russians were trying to sort the Taliban out? Only for the same group to turn on their masters.

Same as Saddam, Gadaffi and Noriega. Allies and friendly nations end up being declared terrorist sponsoring states and conveniently deposed in the name of freedom. Good one.

fwiw Saddams coffers in the treasury grew and grew as the Euro appreciated. Made a mint he did selling his oil only in exchange for Euros. Whilst the dollar was falling. He had to be stopped.

As for the case for war what with nuclear weapons from Africa and WMD technology sold by UK to kill off Iranian invasion doesn't count. Slam dunk case who'd believe it.


I used to see a lot of good in US yes but that all changed when I discovered the truth. Honesty, integrity and ones principals hard to maintain in face of big money and adversity wouldn't you say?


Bringing thread back on track, I'm afraid EU already moving East whilst UK lurches towards US. Better get strategy and direction right. Backing the wrong horse will lead to poor outcomes imho.

I'd say it was US in decline and increasingly desperate for perceived greatness. Hollow vessel with no wind in her sails.


All the best

 

[mike.]

Agreed my bad.

Best to stick to Brexit. Making sure we don't pick the sticky bit of the stick...

Well, 634 pages of argument and counter argument, I think we're nearly done here....Closing statements anyone ?

 

[Signalcalc]

If you take a 10,000 foot view of things (I hate that saying), then all you really see are proxy wars keeping the superpowers from going back into Nuclear standoff’s, and a place to test new weapon technology - none of which have much effect on Brexit other than producing the likes of Blair et al.

Oh, and keeping many people employed in well paid jobs.

 

[cantagril]

Well, 634 pages of argument and counter argument, I think we're nearly done here....Closing statements anyone ?

Stamina problems, eh?

Atilla and CV are just getting started after the warm-up.

Surely you're not going to wimp out now?

 

[Atilla]

 

[mike.]

Stamina problems, eh?

Atilla and CV are just getting started after the warm-up.

Surely you're not going to wimp out now?

I don't think David Davis and Michelle Barnier however often they visit this thread are going to take our advice with all honesty, Though I do recon Atilla would make a mighty fine MEP..

 

[Signalcalc]

More Spitting Image:

 

[Atilla]

I don't think David Davis and Michelle Barnier however often they visit this thread are going to take our advice with all honesty, Though I do recon Atilla would make a mighty fine MEP..

Thank you kindly Mike although personally I'd prefer to be Industry Minister in cabinet.

I have some fantastic ideas, always deliver and would certainly champion the Northern Powerhouse Project with great delight.

 

[mpups]

I see Donald is going to enjoy these Brexit " discussions" :cheesy:

We're in for a good deal :clap:

 

[counter_violent]

I don't think David Davis and Michelle Barnier however often they visit this thread are going to take our advice with all honesty, Though I do recon Atilla would make a mighty fine MEP..

Who would he represent?

 

[mike.]

Who would he represent?

Anywhere but the UK I here the weather is nice in Dublin this time of year...:cheesy:

 

[cantagril]

Thank you kindly Mike although personally I'd prefer to be Industry Minister in cabinet.

I have some fantastic ideas, always deliver and would certainly champion the Northern Powerhouse Project with great delight.

I'm sure you could turn it into a nice little earner by renting out the Brighton yurt whilst claiming expenses for both a pad in central London and somewhere up there in the northern wastes...Watford maybe?

 

[Arashimuro]

The perfect brexit example is strong instability of the British national currency. The British pound often loses value in these days.

 

[sminicooper]

I'm sure you could turn it into a nice little earner by renting out the Brighton yurt whilst claiming expenses for both a pad in central London and somewhere up there in the northern wastes...Watford maybe?

..... Not while Reichsmarschall Von Rees-Mogg sends him to the Gulag for re-education.

 

[Splitlink]

..... Not while Reichsmarschall Von Rees-Mogg sends him to the Gulag for re-education.

All living north, east, south or west of Hampstead are a funny lot. Access to the sea is a problem, though.