Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

Um, it certainly used to though those heady days when people actually voted for them are long gone and they have reinvented themselves as kind and gentle and only interested in shooting a few of the fattest cats.

As I said in my last post, some of their "declared" policies make sense. Casual Googling reveals synopses of the the full gamut.

Isn't that much like an analogy about capitalism and fascists?

I support re-nationalisation of railways. An integrated UK wide transport policy is what this country needs. Not private monopolies imho.

 

[mike.]

Ahh, we all remember the great success that was British Rail, trains on time, lines never closed due to leaves, wonder what ever happened to them....It must of been fantastic sitting back in your big leather office chair getting paid by the government when they hadn't a clue how the railways work but you do...

 

[timsk]

. . . Just need Timsk back on board now, he's having a bit of a wobble...

. . . Tim.....get a grip

Sorry chaps, I'm afraid my grip is slipping and I'm wobbling more than a Masterchef Panna Cotta. To give you some idea just how bad the situation is, I'm even starting to agree with some (but not all) of Atilla's posts! I know, I can't believe it either!

Tom - as someone who likes a flutter on elections - I think it might be prudent to hedge your position with a bet on Mr. Corbyn. We've had Brexit, then Trump, so JC becoming PM would complete the hat trick. Not that I want that personally - I don't - but the fact is this election isn't a rubber stamp coronation for Mrs. May that pretty well everyone thought is was going to be just a few weeks ago. Strange times folks, strange times!
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

Sorry chaps, I'm afraid my grip is slipping and I'm wobbling more than a Masterchef Panna Cotta. To give you some idea just how bad the situation is, I'm even starting to agree with some (but not all) of Atilla's posts! I know, I can't believe it either!

Tom - as someone who likes a flutter on elections - I think it might be prudent to hedge your position with a bet on Mr. Corbyn. We've had Brexit, then Trump, so JC becoming PM would complete the hat trick. Not that I want that personally - I don't - but the fact is this election isn't a rubber stamp coronation for Mrs. May that pretty well everyone thought is was going to be just a few weeks ago. Strange times folks, strange times!
Tim.

fwiw Tim I think Corbyn is the real dark horse re: EU. I don't trust him wholly my self as he hasn't been enthusiastic about it either.

However, core fundamentals for me are;

Helping NHS
Helping Schools
Taxing a little bit more the £80K + earners
Raising Corporation tax to our G7 equivalent partner countries
Renationalising railways
Making education free as that's where our future lies

All good policies along with LibDems.

There are enough MPs who'll keep him in check. So best of all worlds imo.


Voting Tory just gives me the creeps how they'll just cut and chop and BS their way decimating Finance and looking after their political interests and friends.

Key turn off re: Tory policy have been;

Cut public services
Give away tax cuts to the well off
Claim they are reducing deficit. Well they're not but the poor mass labourers are.
More people on zero hour contracts or earning min wage
Bigger bonuses and more fat cats on the other scale

These are so glaringly obvious.

To then say we're all in this together (Cameron) or that they want a fairer and more equitable society (May) is just utter total tosh. It really is.

The arguments are clearly emotional and very functional on the ground.

UKIP can brag on about migrants causing all this and Tories can say how well they manage the economy but it's pretty clear imo.

Tories are the party that'll wreck the UK GDP, social cohesion and they are not what they say they are.

 

[Oscar Reed]

Game over Counter

I’m serious about winning the election. I’m serious about going out there, I’ve been in Worcester and Leamington, I’ve been in Warrington, I’ve been in Croydon but I won’t go to Rochdale. I have a mandate and I’ll lead this party forever, even after I die.”

 

[barjon]

Ahh, we all remember the great success that was British Rail, trains on time, lines never closed due to leaves, wonder what ever happened to them....It must of been fantastic sitting back in your big leather office chair getting paid by the government when they hadn't a clue how the railways work but you do...

Nice one, mike. Trouble is there's plenty of voters out there who have never experienced how all those attractive socialism policies actually pan out in practice and the heavy burden they place on taxpayers of one sort or another.

Not that rampant capitalism is a shining star either, of course.

 

[mike.]

Atilla, just lets get a few facts here, when the torys took over in 2010 the piggy bank was empty, Labour had borrowed and borrowed to fund the public services like you mentioned above, they were borrowing because they were paying out lots and lots more than was coming in taxes ok . Conservatives understood (as in any business ) that this is not sustainable, it's a matter of time before you go bust , you must make cuts to survive, so streamline police, cut a bit here and there and keep corporation tax low to attract business, eventually the economy will bounce back...are you keeping up ? Now, a certain party wants to go on a massive spending spree again well before they have paid the last spending spree debt back....whipping up the uninformed into a frenzy about how their going to spend here and spend there...if it was a business proposal they would be laughed out the boardroom....how can any sane person not see that ....

 

[dbphoenix]

Atilla, just lets get a few facts here, when the torys took over in 2010 the piggy bank was empty, Labour had borrowed and borrowed to fund the public services like you mentioned above, they were borrowing because they were paying out lots and lots more than was coming in taxes ok . Conservatives understood (as in any business ) that this is not sustainable, it's a matter of time before you go bust , you must make cuts to survive

The one does not necessarily follow the other. If there's not enough money to cover services, then one can either cut services or increase revenue, e.g., raise taxes on the wealthy.

 

[mike.]

One can try to raise taxes on the wealthy Db, but we all know why most of them are wealthy, because they manage to avoid taxes, who wouldn't pay an accountant £1k to save you 20k ? It's a none starter ....

 

[Atilla]

Good questions I'll reply soon.

Here's some funtime

 

[Oscar Reed]

PM

http://www.nme.com/features/jeremy-corbyn-interview-2017-cover-feature-labour-2082433

 

[Atilla]

PM

http://www.nme.com/features/jeremy-corbyn-interview-2017-cover-feature-labour-2082433

That's pretty on the ball assessment imo.

The election wasn’t about Brexit any more but the kind of country we want to live in, the kind of values we want to hold, the way we want to treat our old people and the future we want to create for our youth.

This paragraph says it well.

 

[timm]

Tories are the party that'll wreck the UK GDP, social cohesion and they are not what they say they are.

You don't think Labour's plans to shut down trading on UK's financial markets with a huge financial transaction taxes might have some ill-effects? It would be catastrophic.

You think a union dominated government run railway system is a good idea? It has been tried before. It won't work with the rail unions we have in this country.

You think raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations will bring in more revenue? It has been tried before, many times. It just costs jobs and lowers tax revenue.

You think throwing more money at the NHS will improve it? It could do, but not with politicians running the show.

You think funding worthless degrees is a good use of tax payers money? It isn't. I prefer UKIP's position on this.

And who knows what other crazy schemes Labour would come out with, like the LVT stuff, reversing union legislation etc. The thought of a Corbyn government is truly frightening.

 

[Atilla]

I hear your points and they are valid and true but they fail to take into consideration quite a few factors into account.

I know about nationalised industries and Thatcher's privatisation having studied it in depth.

It is very difficult to privatise what are effectively natural monopolies. Books have been written on it. After 40 years I would not call it a roaring success.

Also the argument nationalising railways will take us back to the 1970s chooses to ignore development and advances in the industry and with management. Our auto industry is alive and well and was thriving until Brexit under good governance of Japanese. There is nothing to stop us hiring Dutch management to run the industry. Why not? We've had foreign managers running our national football team. Why not the railways? Systems need change. The number of railway services, cost, lack of investment and not to mention daft public/private investment it's all gone pear shaped. We need change and a good shake out.


As for 2010 well that's not fair laying the global crises at the feet of Labour. That baby was conceived by Tories under Thatcher's big bang and self regulation policies and Labour got left holding the hot potato. I'd agree with you Mike but for this business of cutting taxes to stimulate the economy and starving social services is just not on.

If objective is to pay off deficit quickly then don't reduce Corp/Inheritance tax.


If someone is earning £18K p/a then public transport, rent and utilities all account for a much greater %of income then someone earning £88K.

I just feel we need to redress some fundamental issues and Tories I find are blood suckers of the bottom end spoon feeding the top end.


Finally, there is the bail out of the banks. Why didn't government let banks go to shareholders for funding. I think Brown did good work giving loans in exchange for equity.


fwiw I am a freelance IT contractor and have my own Ltd Co., so yes I will be impacted by corp tax and happy to pay my dues. If not for free university education and maintenance grant I would not be where I am today. What goes around comes around.

 

[Atilla]

You don't think Labour's plans to shut down trading on UK's financial markets with a huge financial transaction taxes might have some ill-effects? It would be catastrophic.

UK gov bailed out banks to the tune of £120bn+. IR needs to claim some of that money back. That's only fair. Shareholders perhaps should seek compensation from execs taking silly bonuses for collapse in share prices back.


You think a union dominated government run railway system is a good idea? It has been tried before. It won't work with the rail unions we have in this country.

Privatisation isn't working. No investment in trains only hikes in fares. PPI is transfer of money from public to private sector.

Doesn't mean unions will manage the railways. Where does it say that? Times have moved on. Some of you have visions of Das Kapital floating around your heads. Get real. We are in the 21st century. Look at what the French, Dutch, Germans and Italians are doing and just copy them.

You need to read up on this and stop distributing old myths http://actionforrail.org/the-four-big-myths-of-uk-rail-privatisation/

Here is one small extract - Official figures show that all but one of the private train operators in the UK receive more in subsidies than they return in the form of franchise payments to the government. In 2013–14, the government contributed £3.8bn to the UK rail industry.



You think raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations will bring in more revenue? It has been tried before, many times. It just costs jobs and lowers tax revenue.

Not raising taxes, keep'm where they were before Tories brought them down. Seems perfectly reasonable to be on par with G7 countries.

You think throwing more money at the NHS will improve it? It could do, but not with politicians running the show.

Ofcourse it will improve it. Right now nurses and doctors are leaving and there are not enough beds for operations or taking care of the elderly who have grown over the age of 75 by 1m. UKIP throws around the blame on migrants as if they are the cause of all the queues.

Fact is as been proven, you are more likely to be looked after by a migrant in the NHS then queue behind one.

Beds don't grow on trees either.

You think funding worthless degrees is a good use of tax payers money? It isn't. I prefer UKIP's position on this. I know what you mean here and sadly my two children have also gone for what I may term soft subjects but seeing their enjoyment creativity I'm changing my mind. Partially I agree with you we need more science and math subjects. Such is life we can have it all our way. I see it as providing a platform and the environment to allow individuals to pursue the dreams adn flourish in their own way.

And who knows what other crazy schemes Labour would come out with, like the LVT stuff, reversing union legislation etc. The thought of a Corbyn government is truly frightening.

We need to boot the Tories out that's for sure. They are making the UK more like the US with a very skewed income distribution and national interest is better served by sticking with our neighbours the Europeans.

You really should read this article as it provides an alternative view. If you are a UKIP voter somehow I doubt you'll give it the attention it deserves.

http://www.cer.org.uk/insights/britain-held-back-its-business-culture-not-eu

I can assure you British ‘short-termism’ has much to do with explaining the decline of the British ship building, textiles and auto industries. More to do with lack of investment adn vision then the trade unions.

Anyhow, nuff said for now.

 

[dbphoenix]

One can try to raise taxes on the wealthy Db, but we all know why most of them are wealthy, because they manage to avoid taxes, who wouldn't pay an accountant £1k to save you 20k ? It's a none starter ....

As economies continue to weaken and eventually collapse, the "non" part will come under more serious examination.

Anyone familiar with history knows that we cannot continue on this course.

 

[Atilla]

As economies continue to weaken and eventually collapse, the "non" part will come under more serious examination.

Anyone familiar with history knows that we cannot continue on this course.

I don't think people remember history either. Not even the last 100 years or so during the industrial Victorian era of great wealth.

Fat businessmen used to send 4 years olds down little coal mines as only their small bodies could squeeze through little tiny holes.

They used to work 18 hour days, were malnourished and were kicked for being lazy and feeble not working hard.

Some probably think Nicholas Nickleby was just fiction along with Yorkshire workhouses.:whistling

 

[dbphoenix]

Doesn't have to be a hundred years. As regards the US, compare the tax rates in the 60s with the tax rates now, top rates having fallen about 65% because conservatives have lobbied for and enacted tax cuts for the wealthy. Then look at current conditions in the so-called "first world" countries, much less conditions in lower-order countries. It's all about funneling wealth to the wealthy, none of whom could care less about local economies.

As for climate change, conservatives don't snort at it because they think it's a hoax; they are opposed to anything that will ameliorate it because efforts to do so would cost money.

 

[Atilla]

Doesn't have to be a hundred years. As regards the US, compare the tax rates in the 60s with the tax rates now, top rates having fallen about 65% because conservatives have lobbied for and enacted tax cuts for the wealthy. Then look at current conditions in the so-called "first world" countries, much less conditions in lower-order countries. It's all about funneling wealth to the wealthy, none of whom could care less about local economies.

As for climate change, conservatives don't snort at it because they think it's a hoax; they are opposed to anything that will ameliorate it because efforts to do so would cost money.

Well they are all private costs past on as externalities - social costs.

Someone has to clean up all this pooh but it ain't going to be me or come out of my pocket so say all of us.

Some more than others

 

[mike.]

Nice one, mike. Trouble is there's plenty of voters out there who have never experienced how all those attractive socialism policies actually pan out in practice and the heavy burden they place on taxpayers of one sort or another.

Not that rampant capitalism is a shining star either, of course.

I remember growing up in the 70s, watching telly at night, The news headlines about the latest IRA bomb that's gone off, Trouble at Longbridge Rover plant and problems with British Rail used to fill the screens on a nightly basis...Maggie had a hardline approach when it came to negotiations, She would never entertain talking to the IRA...I think Blair, Mo Mowlem, John Hulme etc did a fantastic job in bringing peace to Northern Ireland, granted there is still a way to go yet. It's a changing world and that age group when I was young in the 70s are now the ones running the country...whatever will be will be next Thursday, we head down one path or another, follow the masses. Like it or lump it as the saying goes .....