Brexit and the Consequences

[tomorton]

I wouldn't abandon Parliament and would fight to keep it free yes indeed. I'm with you 100% on that.

The EU club is an agreement which we signed up to and I felt it worked really really well giving us prosperity.

As with the take back control club, I fear you are imagining a hypothetical scenario which is far removed from reality. The club has rules and agreements. There are different level of membership too.

So how has the UK improved since taking back control. What was so appalling that we are doing so much better now?

Listening to Radio-4, University projects of all sorts are really struggling to get funding from the EU. Government not stepping in to compensate either.

What deals have we made in the last 6 years that we were unable to do before?

Apparently, the vaccine go / no-go decision was made ultra fast but UK deaths not much difference but even worse than our European ones.

LBC started a show about benefits of Brexit and it basically whimpered out in less than an hour because no one called in. Those who did to complain got turned away because it was about benefits of Brexit.

I don't see how leaving the EU has improved our lives at all.

I didn't see how my freedom or democracy was curtailed being a member of the EU either.

I feel control has been taken away from by virtue of additional restrictions about what I can do and not do in Europe.

How has my right to vote either at LA or National level changed. What more control do I have that I didn't have before?

It's crazy. So many Brexiteer words with no meaning.

As said previously, a decision to leave the EU would eventually have been made by the British people. Unless their collective will was that they no longer wished to be British people.

Its not a conspiracy theory to believe that the objective of the EU is the dissolution of European nation states and their subsumption into one United Sates of Europe. This has been the stated founding philosophy of the European "project". It isn't concealed by the EU, they're actually proud of it.

As for the control of British government policies by British voters., all that is stopping this principle being achieved through new and independent UK policies is the useless Prime Minister currently and temporarily in charge.

 

[Atilla]

As said previously, a decision to leave the EU would eventually have been made by the British people. Unless their collective will was that they no longer wished to be British people.

Its not a conspiracy theory to believe that the objective of the EU is the dissolution of European nation states and their subsumption into one United Sates of Europe. This has been the stated founding philosophy of the European "project". It isn't concealed by the EU, they're actually proud of it.

As for the control of British government policies by British voters., all that is stopping this principle being achieved through new and independent UK policies is the useless Prime Minister currently and temporarily in charge.

Yes the EU is very transparent indeed, hence the different club membership and privileges.

Parliament is sovereign and has stepped out of the EU. All well and good.

Steady as she goes...

 

[CavaliereVerde]

 

[tomorton]

I just wish all party political broadcasts were as funny as this.

 

[tomorton]

Its too early to be able to measure the success or failure of Brexit in economic and trade terms. Short-term, we have damaged trade relations and increased trade friction with our major trading partner. But the UK is now at liberty to manage its own economy, so this objective is achieved. And it is in both parties' interests to minimise negative trade impacts so the long-term trading prospect is positive.

In jurisdictional terms Brexit has immediately secured its objective. Laws applying to UK citizens and businesses will be made in the UK by a democratically elected British government. Disputes between parties will be resolved in British courts by British judges.

In constitutional terms, again Brexit has immediately achieved the objective - which is to safeguard the independent existence of Britain as a sovereign state.

These are the main strategic headings and all are positive as a result of the Brexit referendum result.

On "tactical" matters, its our colossal bad luck to be led by a largely talentless administration headed by one of the worst British Prime Ministers in history, which has drifted us through a global pandemic and into a global inflation crisis.

As an example, its no surprise that this bunch have failed to develop a consistent, fair and sustainable immigration policy. Which doesn't suggest Brexit has been a failure but definitely suggests this government is failing. But hey, that's politicians for you - the EU doesn't have an immigration policy either.

 

[timsk]

Rwanda asylum flight cancelled after legal action​

I can't speak for all Brexiteers because the reasons why people voted leave in the 2016 referendum were many and varied. That said, I'd wager that high on the list was the ability for the U.K. to be autonomous and make it's own decisions about how best to govern itself without being vetoed by some supposed higher authority in another country. With this in mind, I suspect that last night many items were hurled at TV and radio sets and many swear boxes were full to bursting point at the news that a judge in Strasbourg ruled that we can't send illegal migrants to Rwanda. I was one of them. Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the policy, the intervention by the ECHR will surely strengthen the resolve of anyone who wonders if they made the right decision to vote leave and embolden BoJo to fight this ruling with tooth and nail.
Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

EU officials are specialized in trade deals and technical regulations and the EU has 50 years of homework and fine tuning.
UK now has to start from square 1.
This "jurisdicion" and "sovereignty" have 0 impact on the citizen.
In the meantime the citizen is getting: worse goods, worse prices, worse money allocation.

 

[tomorton]

EU officials are specialized in trade deals and technical regulations and the EU has 50 years of homework and fine tuning.
UK now has to start from square 1.
This "jurisdicion" and "sovereignty" have 0 impact on the citizen.
In the meantime the citizen is getting: worse goods, worse prices, worse money allocation.

Jurisdiction and sovereignty have no impact on the citizen?

I wonder what the Scots have to say about that. Or the Catalans. Or the Basques.

Take a look at the separatist movements active across Europe -

List of active separatist movements in Europe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Jurisdiction and sovereignty have no impact on the citizen?

Not on the subjects outsourced to EU.
99.99 of citicens never have to deal with EU officials.
Not a coincidence that Scots and Catalans wanted to remain in EU.
With EU you are trading a negligible amount of autonomy for a pretty significant amount of competence.

 

[tomorton]

Not on the subjects outsourced to EU.
99.99 of citicens never have to deal with EU officials.
Not a coincidence that Scots and Catalans wanted to remain in EU.
With EU you are trading a negligible amount of autonomy for a pretty significant amount of competence.

None of which contradicts my assertion that in reality jurisdiction and sovereignty have great importance for ordinary citizens.

 

[timsk]

With EU you are trading a negligible amount of autonomy for a pretty significant amount of competence.

In the immortal words of John McEnroe - you can not be serious! The only thing the EU are competent at is creating a birds nest of red tape wrapped up in even more red tape. Otherwise, they're a waste of space. Ditto for the WHO, UN, NATO, IMF, WEF and all the rest of these globalist organisations - none of which have the best interests at heart of ordinary people they are supposed to be helping.
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

None of which contradicts my assertion that in reality jurisdiction and sovereignty have great importance for ordinary citizens.

Is that why 2.5m Brits and retirees chose to live in Europe or others elsewhere all over the world, for that matter.

It has no significance at all imo.

I would say what is of paramount importance is that whatever system it is - it is applied equally to all participants without favour or prejudice.

Half the battle is correcting inequities and corruption.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Those organizations seem useless, until you remove them and things get worse.
BTW EU is the perfect scapegoat for national politicians, no more EU no more scapegoat.
Brits are so happy about their politicians that want them to do everything.

 

[tomorton]

Those organizations seem useless, until you remove them and things get worse.
BTW EU is the perfect scapegoat for national politicians, no more EU no more scapegoat.
Brits are so happy about their politicians that want them to do everything.

The question is not really whether EU politicians are more competent than British ones. None of them are that great as their personal and party drivers are not directly aligned with the interests of most of their constituents. That's universally the case.

The question is whether the British should be governed by British politicians elected by the British or by foreign politicians.

 

[tomorton]

Is that why 2.5m Brits and retirees chose to live in Europe or others elsewhere all over the world, for that matter.

It has no significance at all imo.

I would say what is of paramount importance is that whatever system it is - it is applied equally to all participants without favour or prejudice.

Half the battle is correcting inequities and corruption.

There are lots of reasons why Brits go abroad. I'm pretty sure that a desire to be governed by e.g. Spanish politicians is not high on the list. I'm guessing that is something they just accept when they get there because it will be the same case wherever they settle.

Nor are Brits migrating abroad in the same position as e.g. the millions who sailed to the US in order to escape intolerant social and cultural structures of their countries of origin. They wished to become Americans and so to gain the full benefits of democratic citizenship previously denied to many of them.

 

[Atilla]

The question is not really whether EU politicians are more competent than British ones. None of them are that great as their personal and party drivers are not directly aligned with the interests of most of their constituents. That's universally the case.

The question is whether the British should be governed by British politicians elected by the British or by foreign politicians.

I always thought national teams in international football should only be managed by National manager.

How many international managers has our national team had?

Prince Albert rocked the British Empire. Incredibly hard working and super vision. He took a lot of knocks back then from pesky Parliamentarians too, who did not much but gas a lot.

Same goes for FTSE100 companies. Why do we have foreign Execs managing our treasures?

Why should politicians or managing aspects of government and decision making be any different?

Why don't people just buy British goods?

Why do people invest in foreign companies?

Much ado about nothing. As long as there is good management, the race colour or creed of the person is irrelevant imo.

 

[Atilla]

I'm pretty sure that a desire to be governed by e.g. Spanish politicians is not high on the list. I'm guessing that is something they just accept when they get there because it will be the same case wherever they settle.

I don't think the elected government of any EU country is on any one's mind. It's more about the rules and laws. People just intrinsically know they are the same.

Transfer your pension, settle down and even get free reciprocal health care as well.

Lovely jubly.

 

[Atilla]

Sorry just thinking out loud, I recall our old Pat and I, we used to get worked up about our British government selling British industries and successful companies to foreigners.

They would then asset strip the company and move production to other cheaper countries and tear apart what took decades to build.

Other countries like Germany have much tighter restrictions on the sale of National and strategic corporations.

However, when it comes to useless politicians and Brexit, peeps suddenly become all so patriotic and proud to be governed by privileged twits.

Think about the principle of it all. It really is a fallacy concocted by politicians to save their own bacon and fill their pockets imo.

 

[tomorton]

I always thought national teams in international football should only be managed by National manager.

How many international managers has our national team had?

Prince Albert rocked the British Empire. Incredibly hard working and super vision. He took a lot of knocks back then from pesky Parliamentarians too, who did not much but gas a lot.

Same goes for FTSE100 companies. Why do we have foreign Execs managing our treasures?

Why should politicians or managing aspects of government and decision making be any different?

Why don't people just buy British goods?

Why do people invest in foreign companies?

Much ado about nothing. As long as there is good management, the race colour or creed of the person is irrelevant imo.

There is no natural justice if a nation is governed by people they did not elect and cannot replace. Wars have been fought and won and nations created on this point. Without this element of natural justice, efficient governance counts for nothing more than benign dictatorship.

Football managers and CEO's are appointed by the owners for their effectiveness, its purely transactional. Nothing to do with nationality etc.. People are free to buy whosever goods they wish and invest in whichever companies they wish.

As said, the question is not whether British politicians are any good at the job, it is whether the British people have the right to select their own government.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

is governed

This is the point.
Every day I am using boxes standardized by UN, barrels bottles...
Much about safety and transportation is regulated by UN.
I dont' feel governed by UN neither by EU but I feel the positive impact of both in my life.
If you commit a crime you are arrested and judged by UK officials not by EU.
Controversial political matters like health, education, taxes are decided on national level.
The EU gives me a more efficient currency, a more efficient market, a more efficient passport and id card.
It makes the difference every time you travel/buy/sell/send.
A pretty significant benefit.