Brexit and the Consequences

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counter_violent said:
I don't think a second referendum is at all likely as it would resolve nothing. In fact, if anyone in power dared even entertain the idea, then they risk the wrath of the leavers, who rightly would be extremely angry, civil unrest being only a short hop away. . .
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Hi c_v,
Just to be clear, I'm not in favour of having a second referendum. However, it would be foolish in my view to discount the possibility of one being held given that the People's Vote campaign has - and still is - gaining traction. Additionally, if - as expected - Mrs. May's lousy deal is voted down in Parliament - it could prove to be the only way out of the current impasse. In the news today:
Brexit: Majority of Britons back Final Say vote on deal, according to largest poll since referendum
In light of the above, it would be wise to take the possibility of a second referendum seriously IMO and to know how to deal with the various options tabled in the event that one is called.

As for it resolving nothing - that very much depends on what the question(s) are and, obviously, what the result is. For example, if there was a straight forward 'in' or 'out' re-run of the 2016 referendum and the result was the same and/or leave won with an increased majority - then it would pretty much solve everything. It really would shut up all but the most hard core of remainers and be the end of the matter.

The other point to make is that Brexiteers say that the only people wanting a second referendum are remainers who lost in 2016 - hence they've dubbed it the 'Losers Vote'. That's clearly true. For their part, remainers say that the only reason leavers don't want another referendum is because they fear they'd lose. I suspect there's a lot of truth in that too. However, depending on the questions asked and how the results are interpreted, Brexiteers need not fear another vote, IMO. I believe that leave would win again. And the reason for this is down to a point made by Dominic Cummings in the vid' you posted. Most voters aren't on the hard left or right - they're a bit of both and occupy the middle ground of people who are bored by the whole thing and want it brought to a close. All the leave campaign has to do is to appeal to this huge majority of people to vote according to their democratic principles instead of their political beliefs. Leave would get most of the people who voted that way in 2016 - plus a large chunk of remainers who think that the result of the 2016 referendum should be honoured and understand that our whole democratic system could be in jeopardy if that result is overturned by a small majority. You'll recall that I was bangin' on about national identity earlier in the thread and part of the reason for that is that us Brits are famous for our sense of fair play, queuing and playing with a straight bat etc. Millions of people subscribe to - and believe in - the merit of these values and, consequently, will be persuaded to vote leave even though they voted remain two years ago.
Tim.
 
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timsk said:
Hi c_v,
Just to be clear, I'm not in favour of having a second referendum. However, it would be foolish in my view to discount the possibility of one being held given that the People's Vote campaign has - and still is - gaining traction. Additionally, if - as expected - Mrs. May's lousy deal is voted down in Parliament - it could prove to be the only way out of the current impasse. In the news today:
Brexit: Majority of Britons back Final Say vote on deal, according to largest poll since referendum
In light of the above, it would be wise to take the possibility of a second referendum seriously IMO and to know how to deal with the various options tabled in the event that one is called.

As for it resolving nothing - that very much depends on what the question(s) are and, obviously, what the result is. For example, if there was a straight forward 'in' or 'out' re-run of the 2016 referendum and the result was the same and/or leave won with an increased majority - then it would pretty much solve everything. It really would shut up all but the most hard core of remainers and be the end of the matter.

The other point to make is that Brexiteers say that the only people wanting a second referendum are remainers who lost in 2016 - hence they've dubbed it the 'Losers Vote'. That's clearly true. For their part, remainers say that the only reason leavers don't want another referendum is because they fear they'd lose. I suspect there's a lot of truth in that too. However, depending on the questions asked and how the results are interpreted, Brexiteers need not fear another vote, IMO. I believe that leave would win again. And the reason for this is down to a point made by Dominic Cummings in the vid' you posted. Most voters aren't on the hard left or right - they're a bit of both and occupy the middle ground of people who are bored by the whole thing and want it brought to a close. All the leave campaign has to do is to appeal to this huge majority of people to vote according to their democratic principles instead of their political beliefs. Leave would get most of the people who voted that way in 2016 - plus a large chunk of remainers who think that the result of the 2016 referendum should be honoured and understand that our whole democratic system could be in jeopardy if that result is overturned by a small majority. You'll recall that I was bangin' on about national identity earlier in the thread and part of the reason for that is that us Brits are famous for our sense of fair play, queuing and playing with a straight bat etc. Millions of people subscribe to - and believe in - the merit of these values and, consequently, will be persuaded to vote leave even though they voted remain two years ago.
Tim.
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TM gave an implicit answer this morning on the Andrew Marr show, if the vote doesn't pass parliament around the 15th then we go to no-deal. She won't stand down and she wont call for a second referendum. Of course this could all be deceit, it took 3 attempts by Marr to get her to answer the question and then she did so indirectly.

Note her use of language at the beginning of the interview, slight skew towards what the EU wants out of the deal rather than the UK.

A weak prime minister with lots of power, of course this is notwithstanding what parliament might be able to legally achieve/change, if they have the will or the legal right to make changes in time. Still looking like a no-deal scenario to me.
 
Signalcalc said:
The remainstream media - which predicted economic apocalypse - is silent about the outperformance of the UK economy versus the Eurozone economy. Given UK was supposed to be on its knees by now - according to the experts - it is quite extraordinary.

https://order-order.com/2019/01/04/pmi-data-uk-eurozone/
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Nah, that can't be right. Att said the EU economy was the best thing since sliced bread......pretty sure I told him otherwise.
 
Has anyone noticed the resemblance of the UK to US?

Popularism is much hyped up.

So on one hand we have P Trump who was brought in to clean out the swamp has the government on lockdown unable to function because $5bn to build some wall is deemed to be gross wastage of public money.

On the other hand we have Brexiteers trumpeting take back control, and yet Parliament is rudderless unable to make any decision, as UK faces crashing out of the EU.

Similarly Trump thinks he is the best ever President along with Brexiteers making the US and UK, GREAT again. Really? I mean are these clowns taking them selves so seriously to believe in the actual tom foolery? Hate to say this but I think they do and that's whats so scary about these extreme elements of our society.

Anyhow, another similarity is that Trump has lost 40 seats in the mid-term and elections and TM lost Tory majority in her sort of mid-term elections.

I find it incredible that despite the last two years shenanigans and contrary to all expert opinion, the same minority crowd are peddling their total rubbish about EU being in decline, UK growth outshining the rest and TM is the only Prime Minister who can deliver Brexit to the people.


:unsure: Some people surely must be very confused :unsure:
 
Atilla said:
Has anyone noticed the resemblance of the UK to US?

Popularism is much hyped up.

So on one hand we have P Trump who was brought in to clean out the swamp has the government on lockdown unable to function because $5bn to build some wall is deemed to be gross wastage of public money.

On the other hand we have Brexiteers trumpeting take back control, and yet Parliament is rudderless unable to make any decision, as UK faces crashing out of the EU.

Similarly Trump thinks he is the best ever President along with Brexiteers making the US and UK, GREAT again. Really? I mean are these clowns taking them selves so seriously to believe in the actual tom foolery? Hate to say this but I think they do and that's whats so scary about these extreme elements of our society.

Anyhow, another similarity is that Trump has lost 40 seats in the mid-term and elections and TM lost Tory majority in her sort of mid-term elections.

I find it incredible that despite the last two years shenanigans and contrary to all expert opinion, the same minority crowd are peddling their total rubbish about EU being in decline, UK growth outshining the rest and TM is the only Prime Minister who can deliver Brexit to the people.


:unsure: Some people surely must be very confused :unsure:
Click to expand...

Rumours are that parliament will stop UK govt from functioning when TM’s deal is voted down. That will put us on equal footing with the US govt.

Anarchy ahead?
 
barjon said:
No, anything that doesn’t suit you is fake news, of course. I do like to see an open mind at work :)
Click to expand...

And anything that's posted which doesn't suit the remoaner narrative is ignored. Tims vid for example which clearly states that FDI to the UK is greater than Germany, France and Sweden combined. So, the smart money is still backing the UK because they know that the EU is a worse bet going forward.
 
Atilla said:
Has anyone noticed the resemblance of the UK to US?

Popularism is much hyped up.

So on one hand we have P Trump who was brought in to clean out the swamp has the government on lockdown unable to function because $5bn to build some wall is deemed to be gross wastage of public money.

On the other hand we have Brexiteers trumpeting take back control, and yet Parliament is rudderless unable to make any decision, as UK faces crashing out of the EU.

Similarly Trump thinks he is the best ever President along with Brexiteers making the US and UK, GREAT again. Really? I mean are these clowns taking them selves so seriously to believe in the actual tom foolery? Hate to say this but I think they do and that's whats so scary about these extreme elements of our society.

Anyhow, another similarity is that Trump has lost 40 seats in the mid-term and elections and TM lost Tory majority in her sort of mid-term elections.

I find it incredible that despite the last two years shenanigans and contrary to all expert opinion, the same minority crowd are peddling their total rubbish about EU being in decline, UK growth outshining the rest and TM is the only Prime Minister who can deliver Brexit to the people.


:unsure: Some people surely must be very confused :unsure:
Click to expand...

EU is done for me ol china. Every forward prediction on this thread is coming true. Economic, political, policy, you name it, it's all going pear shaped.
 
barjon said:
No, anything that doesn’t suit you is fake news, of course. I do like to see an open mind at work :)
Click to expand...

It’s symptomatic of the propaganda wars we find ourselves in. There is truth in raw data only, vids on YouTube are difficult to fake unless the presenter is presenting fake news. Govt stats are worthless if they have passed through the analytical hands of academics, economists, fake and real charities, fake and real NGOs, the media and even official govt websites.

The only way to have independently verifiable facts would be if the raw data collected by the govt department was made available to all of us with say 3 truly independent bodies verifying the source of the data.

It’s easy to dismiss fakery, not so when it is the actual truth because there will always be a question mark about its source.

We are all old enough and wise enough to think for ourselves, present what you wish, but be prepared for its source to be revealed so that we can understand what flavour of propaganda it is.
 
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Signalcalc said:
It’s symptomatic of the propaganda wars we find ourselves in. There is truth in raw data only, vids on YouTube are difficult to fake unless the presenter is presenting fake news. Govt stats are worthless if they have passed through the analytical hands of academics, economists, fake and real charities, fake and real NGOs, the media and even official govt websites.

The only way to have independently verifiable facts would be if the raw data collected by the govt department was made available to all of us with say 3 truly independent bodies verifying the source of the data.

It’s easy to dismiss fakery, not so when it is the actual truth because there will always be a question mark about its source.

We are all old enough and wise enough to think for ourselves, present what you wish, but be prepared for its source to be revealed so that we can understand what flavour of propaganda it is.
Click to expand...

It was ever thus. I had a book around 50 years ago called How to Lie with Statistics. Little gem it was. Same set of stats can be presented so many different ways and used to support various arguments and even those on totally opposing sides.

Nonetheless you can’t argue with the basic facts, only be wary of the presentation. I don’t see you applying the same rigour with the tripe put out by the Brexit camp, but I do see you pour scorn on anything contrary to your Brexit stance. Even facts are just dismissed as propaganda.

I presume you are confident of your position, but by just dismissing anything to the contrary it certainly doesn’t seem so.
 
counter_violent said:
It will be interesting to see what the Govt line is with regard to these so called amendments.
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She used to say "that no deal was better than a bad deal" – seems to have gone a bit quiet on that of late! I suspect she will go to any lengths (to include shafting her own school) to remain as Head Girl.
 
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