Brexit and the Consequences

[Signalcalc]

Hi Tim,

If my next door neighbour suffers why should I count my blessings?

In fact if I'm a member of a team, if some of the team members are in turmoil why should I be counting my blessings!

Here is a quote from SC's article. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/...worse-Just-look-Europe-says-PETER-OBORNE.html

But we should also count our blessings. We are not the only country experiencing turmoil — and for many of our neighbours it is far worse.

I have a pain on my big toe, I go to the doctor and he says don't worry your neighbour has hemorrhoids up his arse????

I think you've misunderstood the article, he is saying that we should be counting our blessings as we will shortly no longer be a member of the failing EU or have any obligation towards it or its members, we are leaving the EU team and joining a different team, we are escaping and lucky to be doing so.

As we will be joining a different team our obligations will lie elsewhere, not with members of the EU, we could choose to have mutual obligations with members of the EU, but we will no longer be mandatory compelled to do so, we will shortly become a freelance country, free to conduct our business as we wish (or as its citizens wish).

To continue the team analogy, we are a star player leaving a bottom of the league team and have been signed up by a top of the league team, the new team will wish us to be cognisant of our new team players injuries and to forget our old team mates injuries, especially as some of our old team mates have ostracised us at the first opportunity once they heard we had signed a different contract, other old players will wish us farewell with a hint of envy that we are heading for the top of the league whilst they are still stuck languishing at the bottom

 

[timsk]

Hi Atilla,

. . . Yes there are issues, migration being one of them but that has already started to die down and EU I believe will address those issues.

Issues, lol!!!!!
Well, I look forward to hearing how the EU is going to address all of its 'issues'. You acknowledge that Jordon Peterson makes a valid point in his video, Peter Burke highlights loads in his video (the one I posted) and Peter Oborne raises a bunch more in his Mail Online article. Oh, and as you rightly point out, there's the not altogether inconsequential matter of migration! The EU will need more than a few juicy trade deals with Canada and Japan to remedy that little lot. From my perspective, anyone who thinks that the EU isn't up to its neck in a quagmire of brown sticky stuff right now either doesn't care and hasn't bothered to look at the situation - or they're the kind of people who'll happily look you in the eye and swear blind that two plus two equals five. You don't fit into either of those categories. Consequently, I feel for you as it must be very distressing to realise and to accept that the project you so desperately want to believe in and to succeed (and have done a fantastic job defending here on T2W over the past few years or so) appears to be up poo creek in a barbed wire boat without a paddle.
Tim.

 

[Pat494]

While great inequalities reign there cannot be much teamwork within Britain. The rich won't be much affected by Brexit. As always the poor will suffer. Huge pensions will be doled out to the rich and peanuts for the poor.

 

[barjon]

Tim

Of course there are real issues with migration, but that’s not down to free movement (EU migrants here are net contributors to the economy overall) but more to do with migrants trying to escape poverty, ethnic cleansing and war ravaged countries (and, for us, the rights of Commonwealth citizens).

Leaving the EU won’t necessarily solve those problems for us unless we are prepared to sink migrants mid channel or send them back (if we can establish where they came from). Modern communications have meant that even the poorest people know what it’s really like elsewhere and their desperation is such that they will never stop trying to get here.

 

[timsk]

. . . Leaving the EU won’t necessarily solve those problems for us unless we are prepared to sink migrants mid channel . . .

Hi Jon,
I accept your point, but, migration is just one issue among many. Take it out of the equation all together if you like, there are still truck loads of reasons to leave the EU and truck loads of reasons why it will collapse if it doesn't radically change course. And quickly! I'm not one of those that relish the EU's downfall, as it will bring mainland Europe to its knees and, in so doing, drag us down with it - even if we've left by then. What I'd like to see is for it to come to the realisation that its globalist agenda doesn't work for most of the people it represents and to focus on what it was originally set up to do (or so we were all lead to believe), i.e. to facilitate trade between member states. Sadly, it shows no signs of doing this or, indeed, paying any attention to anyone who isn't prepared to sign up to its federalist vision of a United States of Europe.
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

Hi Jon,
I accept your point, but, migration is just one issue among many. Take it out of the equation all together if you like, there are still truck loads of reasons to leave the EU and truck loads of reasons why it will collapse if it doesn't radically change course. And quickly! I'm not one of those that relish the EU's downfall, as it will bring mainland Europe to its knees and, in so doing, drag us down with it - even if we've left by then. What I'd like to see is for it to come to the realisation that its globalist agenda doesn't work for most of the people it represents and to focus on what it was originally set up to do (or so we were all lead to believe), i.e. to facilitate trade between member states. Sadly, it shows no signs of doing this or, indeed, paying any attention to anyone who isn't prepared to sign up to its federalist vision of a United States of Europe.
Tim.

The Fox Who Lost His Tail
22 November 2013 By DaBoss

A Fox lost his tail in a trap and tried to get fellow foxes to trim their tails. They saw through the ruse.
Distrust advice from someone who stands to gain.​

Aesop For Children (The Fox Without a Tail)

Milo Winter (1919)
A Fox that had been caught in a trap, succeeded at last, after much painful tugging, in getting away. But he had to leave his beautiful bushy tail behind him.
For a long time he kept away from the other Foxes, for he knew well enough that they would all make fun of him and crack jokes and laugh behind his back. But it was hard for him to live alone, and at last he thought of a plan that would perhaps help him out of his trouble.
He called a meeting of all the Foxes, saying that he had something of great importance to tell the tribe.
When they were all gathered together, the Fox Without a Tail got up and made a long speech about those Foxes who had come to harm because of their tails.
This one had been caught by hounds when his tail had become entangled in the hedge. That one had not been able to run fast enough because of the weight of his brush. Besides, it was well known, he said, that men hunt Foxes simply for their tails, which they cut off as prizes of the hunt. With such proof of the danger and uselessness of having a tail, said Master Fox, he would advise every Fox to cut it off, if he valued life and safety.
When he had finished talking, an old Fox arose, and said, smiling:
“Master Fox, kindly turn around for a moment, and you shall have your answer.”
When the poor Fox Without a Tail turned around, there arose such a storm of jeers and hooting, that he saw how useless it was to try any longer to persuade the Foxes to part with their tails.

Moral

Do not listen to the advice of him who seeks to lower you to his own level.​

Because England is leaving the EU, you think all other countries will follow??? As hard as TM tried to split the EU members can see for them selves the folly of the Brexiteers. Rest of the world is laughing at the UK right now. No rhyme or reason. Blinkered to facts and what the businesses, parliament or the people crying out for.

As reported before, EU was not even named as a top issue for the majority of the people. Instead of counting UK problems Brexiteers highlighting EU member states issues as justification for leaving. That has to be the craziest idea going. Brexiteers so desperate to validate self confirming bias they'll promote anything to support their agenda. It's like the ability to think and reason has left them. Parliament has no control. Fly crashing onto windscreen at 70mph has nothing but it's arse going through its brain.

Instead of EU splitting it's precisely the country that is split. Soon that may well lead to the union splitting as well.

Do you not see this occuring before your very own eyes now?

 

[counter_violent]

The Fox Who Lost His Tail
22 November 2013 By DaBoss

A Fox lost his tail in a trap and tried to get fellow foxes to trim their tails. They saw through the ruse.​

Distrust advice from someone who stands to gain.​

Aesop For Children (The Fox Without a Tail)

Milo Winter (1919)
A Fox that had been caught in a trap, succeeded at last, after much painful tugging, in getting away. But he had to leave his beautiful bushy tail behind him.
For a long time he kept away from the other Foxes, for he knew well enough that they would all make fun of him and crack jokes and laugh behind his back. But it was hard for him to live alone, and at last he thought of a plan that would perhaps help him out of his trouble.
He called a meeting of all the Foxes, saying that he had something of great importance to tell the tribe.
When they were all gathered together, the Fox Without a Tail got up and made a long speech about those Foxes who had come to harm because of their tails.
This one had been caught by hounds when his tail had become entangled in the hedge. That one had not been able to run fast enough because of the weight of his brush. Besides, it was well known, he said, that men hunt Foxes simply for their tails, which they cut off as prizes of the hunt. With such proof of the danger and uselessness of having a tail, said Master Fox, he would advise every Fox to cut it off, if he valued life and safety.
When he had finished talking, an old Fox arose, and said, smiling:
“Master Fox, kindly turn around for a moment, and you shall have your answer.”
When the poor Fox Without a Tail turned around, there arose such a storm of jeers and hooting, that he saw how useless it was to try any longer to persuade the Foxes to part with their tails.

Moral

Do not listen to the advice of him who seeks to lower you to his own level.​

Because England is leaving the EU, you think all other countries will follow??? As hard as TM tried to split the EU members can see for them selves the folly of the Brexiteers. Rest of the world is laughing at the UK right now. No rhyme or reason. Blinkered to facts and what the businesses, parliament or the people crying out for.

As reported before, EU was not even named as a top issue for the majority of the people. Instead of counting UK problems Brexiteers highlighting EU member states issues as justification for leaving. That has to be the craziest idea going. Brexiteers so desperate to validate self confirming bias they'll promote anything to support their agenda. It's like the ability to think and reason has left them. Parliament has no control. Fly crashing onto windscreen at 70mph has nothing but it's arse going through its brain.

Instead of EU splitting it's precisely the country that is split. Soon that may well lead to the union splitting as well.

Do you not see this occuring before your very own eyes now?

Errr, who's desperate? Seems to me it's remoaners and the EU that are desperate for it all to go away, but if it won't go away, then keep us aligned and contributing, which is their second best option.

Either way, it's not going to happen as there are sufficient numbers of voters and MP's to ensure we end up with a proper leave Brexit.

 

[Atilla]

Errr, who's desperate? Seems to me it's remoaners and the EU that are desperate for it all to go away, but if it won't go away, then keep us aligned and contributing, which is their second best option.

Either way, it's not going to happen as there are sufficient numbers of voters and MP's to ensure we end up with a proper leave Brexit.

Nonsense.

What is a sufficient number?

Not a trick question either as I know how you are with numbers

 

[Signalcalc]

Because England is leaving the EU, you think all other countries will follow??? As hard as TM tried to split the EU members can see for them selves the folly of the Brexiteers. Rest of the world is laughing at the UK right now. No rhyme or reason. Blinkered to facts and what the businesses, parliament or the people crying out for.

As reported before, EU was not even named as a top issue for the majority of the people. Instead of counting UK problems Brexiteers highlighting EU member states issues as justification for leaving. That has to be the craziest idea going. Brexiteers so desperate to validate self confirming bias they'll promote anything to support their agenda. It's like the ability to think and reason has left them. Parliament has no control. Fly crashing onto windscreen at 70mph has nothing but it's arse going through its brain.

Instead of EU splitting it's precisely the country that is split. Soon that may well lead to the union splitting as well.

Do you not see this occuring before your very own eyes now?

Have you got any arguments or are we just going to continue scraping the barrel?

 

[Signalcalc]

Tim

Of course there are real issues with migration, but that’s not down to free movement (EU migrants here are net contributors to the economy overall) but more to do with migrants trying to escape poverty, ethnic cleansing and war ravaged countries (and, for us, the rights of Commonwealth citizens).

Leaving the EU won’t necessarily solve those problems for us unless we are prepared to sink migrants mid channel or send them back (if we can establish where they came from). Modern communications have meant that even the poorest people know what it’s really like elsewhere and their desperation is such that they will never stop trying to get here.

The problem with not leaving the EU is that we would be subject to ECJ, migrant quotas, adoption of UN policies (is there any real difference between the UN and EU policies?), so leaving the EU is going to help us remove those particular legal issues from our plate.

Dealing with UN migrant policies is a separate issue, as long as our elected representatives feel obliged to engage in the hypocracy of UN policies then we still have battles ahead.

 

[counter_violent]

Nonsense.

What is a sufficient number?

Not a trick question either as I know how you are with numbers

Well these few who can be bothered signing a petition. The silent majority who never act before the 11th hr. Worth reminding you that the default Brexit position is leave with No Deal.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

So anyway, we aren't the desperate ones because No Deal suits us just fine.

 

[barjon]

Hi Jon,
I accept your point, but, migration is just one issue among many. Take it out of the equation all together if you like, there are still truck loads of reasons to leave the EU and truck loads of reasons why it will collapse if it doesn't radically change course. And quickly! I'm not one of those that relish the EU's downfall, as it will bring mainland Europe to its knees and, in so doing, drag us down with it - even if we've left by then. What I'd like to see is for it to come to the realisation that its globalist agenda doesn't work for most of the people it represents and to focus on what it was originally set up to do (or so we were all lead to believe), i.e. to facilitate trade between member states. Sadly, it shows no signs of doing this or, indeed, paying any attention to anyone who isn't prepared to sign up to its federalist vision of a United States of Europe.
Tim.

Yes, there are truck loads of reasons to leave and (from my perspective) many more truckloads of reasons to stay. As for it collapsing Brexiteers would like to think so, but I think that’s hogwash. Apart from some moaning and groaning from a relatively small minority overall the commitment is still strong from individual governments, the outside world increasing talks of and respects “the EU” , the outside world still clamour to deal with the EU and the economic growth that it engenders remains good.

Maybe the hardish line pursued by EU negotiators without even a murmur of discontent from member state governments demonstrates an overall strength and a hand full of honour cards. Not particularly nice for us to feel a bit second-rate but that what it looks like to the outside observers.

 

[counter_violent]

Tim

Of course there are real issues with migration, but that’s not down to free movement (EU migrants here are net contributors to the economy overall) but more to do with migrants trying to escape poverty, ethnic cleansing and war ravaged countries (and, for us, the rights of Commonwealth citizens).

Leaving the EU won’t necessarily solve those problems for us unless we are prepared to sink migrants mid channel or send them back (if we can establish where they came from). Modern communications have meant that even the poorest people know what it’s really like elsewhere and their desperation is such that they will never stop trying to get here.

There's no proof whatsoever that migrants to the UK are net contributors.
Have a chat to my mrs (school liason officer family support) as to who gets all the resources and who causes all the strains in the system.

 

[counter_violent]

Yes, there are truck loads of reasons to leave and (from my perspective) many more truckloads of reasons to stay. As for it collapsing Brexiteers would like to think so, but I think that’s hogwash. Apart from some moaning and groaning from a relatively small minority overall the commitment is still strong from individual governments, the outside world increasing talks of and respects “the EU” , the outside world still clamour to deal with the EU and the economic growth that it engenders remains good.

Maybe the hardish line pursued by EU negotiators without even a murmur of discontent from member state governments demonstrates an overall strength and a hand full of honour cards. Not particularly nice for us to feel a bit second-rate but that what it looks like to the outside observers.

The reality of the situation is of course quite different.

Brexiters know it is falling apart.

Individual Governments don't have the support of their voters which is why traditional parties are falling by the wayside. So these Governments can commit to whatever they like, but if the people don't go along with it, then they are history.

Economic growth has slowed to a trickle across Europe despite still being pumped full of funny money. There is no growth whatsoever.

 

[barjon]

The reality of the situation is of course quite different.

Brexiters know it is falling apart.

Individual Governments don't have the support of their voters which is why traditional parties are falling by the wayside. So these Governments can commit to whatever they like, but if the people don't go along with it, then they are history.

Economic growth has slowed to a trickle across Europe despite still being pumped full of funny money. There is no growth whatsoever.

You don’t “know”, just wish it to be so.

Individual governments do have the support of their voters - that’s why they are there. It’s called democracy.

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-economic-growth-higher-europe/

 

[barjon]

There's no proof whatsoever that migrants to the UK are net contributors.
Have a chat to my mrs (school liason officer family support) as to who gets all the resources and who causes all the strains in the system.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rexit-migrants-british-citizens-a8542506.html false news I dare say. Just one of many articles about it. Haven’t tried to get hold of the actual report.

 

[counter_violent]

You don’t “know”, just wish it to be so.

Individual governments do have the support of their voters - that’s why they are there. It’s called democracy.

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-economic-growth-higher-europe/

Oh well that's alright then. Us Brexiters must be dreaming it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36130006

 

[barjon]

Oh well that's alright then. Us Brexiters must be dreaming it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36130006

No, you’re not dreaming, but there’s a vast difference between fringe parties and the main players. If they form governments (yes, Italy I know) and then try to break free from the EU as opposed to forcing action on the migrant front you might start having a case. In the meantime the main players hold sway and carry the majority support.

 

[Signalcalc]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...rexit-migrants-british-citizens-a8542506.html false news I dare say. Just one of many articles about it. Haven’t tried to get hold of the actual report.

Given that the Independent's report is based on Oxford Economics assessment, then there is at the very least a UK Gov and EU bias.

 

[timsk]

Hi Jon,

Yes, there are truck loads of reasons to leave and (from my perspective) many more truckloads of reasons to stay.

Fair enough, I accept that.

As for it collapsing Brexiteers would like to think so, but I think that’s hogwash.

As I said in my previous post, I don't want to see it collapse as I believe it would be bad for us. A rising tide . . .

Apart from some moaning and groaning from a relatively small minority overall the commitment is still strong from individual governments, the outside world increasing talks of and respects “the EU” , the outside world still clamour to deal with the EU and the economic growth that it engenders remains good.

What is conspicuous by its absence from yours and Atilla's posts is any attempt to address the numerous issues raised in the video I posted and the Mail Online article that Sig' posted. If you're going to convince me that all's hunky dory in EU land, then I'm afraid that's what you need to do! How about starting with Le President Macron - whose approval ratings are fast heading towards single digits and who is less popular than Marine Le Pen. He's the poster boy for the EU, its very embodiment in human form. Please don't tell me that you subscribe to the Atilla's view that his (and France's) problems have nothing to do with the EU!

Maybe the hardish line pursued by EU negotiators without even a murmur of discontent from member state governments demonstrates an overall strength and a hand full of honour cards. Not particularly nice for us to feel a bit second-rate but that what it looks like to the outside observers.

Jon - please read the article and watch the videos as it will then become abundantly clear that other EU member state governments have got serious poop on their own respective doorsteps to sort out before turning their attention to the UK and Brexit.
Tim.