Brexit and the Consequences

[Splitlink]

I don't think that Brexit is the cause of division in the UK, I believe the divisions were already there to begin with.

The Brexit referendum caused a shock amongst the establishment, they completely missed the mood, it galvanised the UK left to momentumsize themselves into action, they have sought to increase the division, spurred on by the election of Trump and the rise in Antifa (an oxymoron). Threats, intimidation, control of the media, curtailing free speech and violence are now part of the left's agenda, where they have been relatively benign for 20-30 years. In relative terms, there is very little equivalence from the right other than a few protest marches.

Just before the referendum was the opening of the floodgates to mass migration into Europe by the EU, that just poured fuel more fuel on the fire. So the Brexit vote only highlighted divisions that were gently simmering in the UK, probably since the early 90's when Political Correctness was introduced. I would bet that PC provided the spark for a 50/50 split amongst the views of the UK public.

The rise in division has spread to Europe and the States, although I suspect that the same divisions have been simmering amongst those populations because of Globalism spreading PC and corruption amongst major corporations, it's all linked. Other Western countries such as Oz, Canada, NZ following the same path.

Then throw in the rise of the internet and social media and you have pretty much a perfect storm that came into being with the Brexit vote.

Very historically significant in this new Epoch of human existence

What you seem to be suggesting is that EU is being blamed for something for which it was not responsible, that the problem has only been brought to the surface by Brexit.

That would be similar to the case in Spain, where power has been shared by two parties since Franco's death. We, now, have four main ones.

 

[Atilla]

I don't think that Brexit is the cause of division in the UK, I believe the divisions were already there to begin with.

Which year are you talking about here?

Brexit referendum is a clear definition of division and rarely has UK government been soooo absorbed with such an important event in peace time. You say Brexit is not the cause of division. Do you think based on actual evidence of what we are seeing your thoguht or belief holds up to scrutiny?

The Brexit referendum caused a shock amongst the establishment, they completely missed the mood, it galvanised the UK left to momentumsize themselves into action, the left have sought to increase the division, spurred on by the election of Trump and the rise in Antifa (an oxymoron). Threats, intimidation, control of the media, curtailing free speech and violence are now part of the lefts' agenda, when they had been relatively benign for 20-30 years. In relative terms, there is very little equivalence from the organised right other than a few protest marches.

Just before the referendum was the opening of the floodgates to mass migration into Europe by the EU, that just poured more fuel on the fire. So the Brexit vote only highlighted divisions that were gently simmering in the UK, probably simmering since the early 90's when Political Correctness was introduced and before that during the Thatcher years. I would bet that PC provided the spark for a 50/50 split amongst the views of the UK public, PC also coincided with the political integration of the EU under the Maastricht treaty, that would have caused more disquiet amongst the UK populous.

The rise in division has spread to Europe and the US, although I suspect that the same divisions have been simmering amongst those populations because of Globalism spreading PC and corruption amongst major corporations, banks and government institutions, it's all linked. Other Western countries such as Oz, Canada, NZ have followed the same path.

Then throw in the rise of the internet and social media and you have pretty much a perfect storm that came into being with the Brexit vote.

Very historically significant in this new Epoch of human existence

Most things were hunky dory and UK doing well until self regulation and the big bang in finance turned out to be bottomless pit of too big to fail banks. Not just US but UK and EU as well. That was the shock.

Much like the oil price shock of the 70s and then it's a case of how various countries respond and react.


Have another think and then tell us what you believe and don't believe.

 

[Signalcalc]

What you seem to be suggesting is that EU is being blamed for something for which it was not responsible, that the problem has only been brought to the surface by Brexit.

That would be similar to the case in Spain, where power has been shared by two parties since Franco's death. We, now, have four main ones.

The responsibility does lie with the EU & the UK government, who else is there to blame? If the UK hadn't signed the Maastricht Treaty and the EU hadn't then gone on an over-zealous imposition of political integration then we quite possibly would not have had so much disquiet in the UK and on the continent, there would be no referendum and all would be harmony in the EU.

Remember though that there are other countries that have had referendums about the choice of staying in the EU, when the establishment didn't like the result, they forced another referendum. The same process has been going on with Brexit, so far the establishment has not managed to force another referendum. So Brexit is not unique, except that we British are usually good at sticking to our guns and sticking two fingers up at anyone that decides to trifle with us.

 

[Signalcalc]

Most things were hunky dory and UK doing well until self regulation and the big bang in finance turned out to be bottomless pit of too big to fail banks. Not just US but UK and EU as well. That was the shock.

Much like the oil price shock of the 70s and then it's a case of how various countries respond and react.


Have another think and then tell us what you believe and don't believe.

I think I've explaining my reasoning quite clearly, the divisions were around for a long time before Brexit. Brexit brought those divisions to the fore (but did not cause the divisions) and the left has sought to increase the divisions since the vote!

I agree that the financial crisis should certainly be thrown into the mix, that just highlights my point about corruption.

 

[Atilla]

I think I've explaining my reasoning quite clearly, the divisions were around for a long time before Brexit. Brexit brought those divisions to the fore (but did not cause the divisions) and the left has sought to increase the division since the vote!

I agree that the financial crisis should certainly be thrown into the mix, that just highlights my point about corruption.

Brexit is the response to the shock of the financial crash.

There is a bunch of peeps out there who feel EU despite growing UK share of EU is falling and that UK is better off turning her back to that competition. Effectively unable to compete as UK productivity is poor with non-existent manufacturing. No training. No effort to get up and work hard and simply blame migrant labour. UK walking away from the competition.

Because UK is losing competition and this has been the case since 1850s since the height of the empire, somehow giving up a three course meal sitting on the biggest trading block in the World and choosing to trade with small countries in the rest of the World you feel we will find glory???

It is indeed a vision one which has not been substantiated by any piece of work other than politicians vying for power.

Once again your verbals and gripes and rants have nothing to do with EU. Even with respect to culture and religion UK is part of Europe in terms of her people not just geography and yet you talk about the same subjects along with nigel motor mouth make Commonwealth top priority of UK government in same breath.

Along with CV you are one very confused puppy me amigo.

 

[Signalcalc]

Brexit is the response to the shock of the financial crash.

Your opinion and you are perfectly entitled to it :clap:

There is a bunch of peeps out there who feel EU despite growing UK share of EU is falling and that UK is better off turning her back to that competition. Effectively unable to compete as UK productivity is poor with non-existent manufacturing. No training. No effort to get up and work hard and simply blame migrant labour. UK walking away from the competition.

Because UK is losing competition and this has been the case since 1850s since the height of the empire, somehow giving up a three course meal sitting on the biggest trading block in the World and choosing to trade with small countries in the rest of the World you feel we will find glory???

It is indeed a vision one which has not been substantiated by any piece of work other than politicians vying for power.

Once again your verbals and gripes and rants have nothing to do with EU. Even with respect to culture and religion UK is part of Europe in terms of her people not just geography and yet you talk about the same subjects along with nigel motor mouth make Commonwealth top priority of UK government in same breath.

Along with CV you are one very confused puppy me amigo.

I'm not sure who you are quoting here, but I don't remember me typing anything about 'Empire' or 'Commonwealth' or 'Farage', you seem to be the only one fixated with those ideas. Not me.

The last time I sat out in a quaint market square, in the warmth and sunshine watching the pretty ladies passing by with a cup of French/Italian coffee, or a Sangria, or a Bratwurst mit Frites, or sunning myself on a ski slope warmed by a hot bowl of Gulaschsuppe was a few months ago, somewhere on the continent. In all my years of trying to find it in the UK I haven't experienced Cafe culture like that, so I would most certainly have to differ on your view that we share a common culture with the EU.

I normally grab a pint, pie & chips and sit in a beer garden when it stops raining in the UK.

 

[Atilla]

Your opinion and you are perfectly entitled to it :clap:



I'm not sure who you are quoting here, but I don't remember me typing anything about 'Empire' or 'Commonwealth' or 'Farage', you seem to be the only one fixated with those ideas. Not me.

The last time I sat out in a quaint market square, in the warmth and sunshine watching the pretty ladies passing by with a cup of French/Italian coffee, or a Sangria, or a Bratwurst mit Frites, or sunning myself on a ski slope warmed by a hot bowl of Gulaschsuppe was a few months ago, somewhere on the continent. In all my years of trying to find it in the UK I haven't experienced Cafe culture like that, so I would most certainly have to differ on your view that we share a common culture with the EU.

I normally grab a pint, pie & chips and sit in a beer garden when it stops raining in the UK.

Yes matey they are your opinions and 1.2m Brits working abroad would disagree with you to the point of taking Tories Brexit vision and their rights to EU court of Justice.

You need to go and read up on your history.


Farage deserts UKIP vision.

Now you deserting your leader.


Rats leaving sinking ship with all sorts of crazy ideas that only seem to make sense in your own heads and has once again nothing to do with Brexit.


How does Brexit stop your culture of enjoying your fish n chips or for that matter add to it? Do you stop being English if you drink Sangria or eat paella or ratatouille???

I think I was wrong about you. You are far more gone to the far side than I might have envisaged. :cheesy:

 

[sminicooper]

In all my years of trying to find it in the UK I haven't experienced Cafe culture like that, so I would most certainly have to differ on your [Atilla's] view that we share a common culture with the EU.

Agree. Our different culture, in so many respects, is what has always historically differentiated us.

 

[cantagril]

The last time I sat out in a quaint market square, in the warmth and sunshine watching the pretty ladies passing by with a cup of French/Italian coffee, or a Sangria, or a Bratwurst mit Frites, or sunning myself on a ski slope warmed by a hot bowl of Gulaschsuppe was a few months ago, somewhere on the continent. In all my years of trying to find it in the UK I haven't experienced Cafe culture like that, so I would most certainly have to differ on your view that we share a common culture with the EU.

I normally grab a pint, pie & chips and sit in a beer garden when it stops raining in the UK.

I can't furnish any pretty ladies but I'm with you all the way on"the sun shines brighter bit". The attached pic is not the only reason for my own Exit vote but a fairly important one, having been the view from my veranda for the best part of 4 decades. Grimy, cold and wet south London lost its charms after about the first week of my first autumn back here. I'm afraid an indifferent pie and some ersatz lager doesn't entice me any further.....

 

[Signalcalc]

Yes matey they are your opinions and 1.2m Brits working abroad would disagree with you to the point of taking Tories Brexit vision and their rights to EU court of Justice.

You need to go and read up on your history.


Farage deserts UKIP vision.

Now you deserting your leader.


Rats leaving sinking ship with all sorts of crazy ideas that only seem to make sense in your own heads and has once again nothing to do with Brexit.


How does Brexit stop your culture of enjoying your fish n chips or for that matter add to it? Do you stop being English if you drink Sangria or eat paella or ratatouille???

I think I was wrong about you. You are far more gone to the far side than I might have envisaged. :cheesy:

You assume I have a leader? Who would that be exactly? I look forward to a facetious reply

 

[cantagril]

You assume I have a leader? Who would that be exactly? I look forward to a facetious reply

Take us to your leader - resistance is futile!

(Is that facetious enough?)

 

[Signalcalc]

I can't furnish any pretty ladies but I'm with you all the way on"the sun shines brighter bit". The attached pic is not the only reason for my own Exit vote but a fairly important one, having been the view from my veranda for the best part of 4 decades. Grimy, cold and wet south London lost its charms after about the first week of my first autumn back here. I'm afraid an indifferent pie and some ersatz lager doesn't entice me any further.....

Beautiful, one day soon I will find my own spot, probably in France or Spain. Surprisingly touring around Scotland last year was an eye opener, in previous years I always had headed to the high mountains in Autumn, Winter and Spring, last year was much more sedate in Summer, we (my wife included) were blown away by its beauty, so much to see in the UK and Europe, not enough lifetime to do it in.

Brexit does not mean giving up the delights of the heritage, landscapes and cultures that exist, nothing changes there.

I'm not sure how to feel about expats, I've spent many years abroad working, I'm not really aware of how they will be affected, I don't think anyone knows for sure just yet.

 

[Signalcalc]

Take us to your leader - resistance is futile!

(Is that facetious enough?)

I am Borg, part of the collective.

 

[Atilla]

You assume I have a leader? Who would that be exactly? I look forward to a facetious reply

I dunno but you and your companion have some fantastic ideas about where UK will go after Brexit but if now you suggesting you have the ideas but no such leader it makes me want to laugh out even more.



You just want to get into your little boat and drift out into the sunset to live happily ever after in some culturally utopic world of isolation.

Ok you got me on the not being serious part but all I was trying to do and I'm still bewildered by Brexiteers is that end vision and what it means for you.

Stuff you and CV come out with has nothing to do with Brexit.

The Brexit on offer doesn't rally tally up with your bloggs.

Rants have no bearing on Brexit.



All the best - was going to offer you Heineken but it may not be your cup of tea so to speak :cheesy:

 

[sminicooper]

You just want to get into your little boat and drift out into the sunset to live happily ever after in some culturally utopic world of isolation.

Like this ? .........

 

[cantagril]

Beautiful, one day soon I will find my own spot, probably in France or Spain. ..... I've spent many years abroad working, I'm not really aware of how they will be affected, I don't think anyone knows for sure just yet.

The sunset was the Gard (30) in France. Am moving back to the Gers (32) at the beginning of next year. As you seem to like mountains: You can buy a farmhouse (+ some land) there with views of the Pyrénees for £100k. My house here is worth a few times that - I have a garden the size of a parking space and can just about see the railway embankment through the rain.

As to how it will affect anybody. Before the EU we used to have a relationship with most of the countries of Europe that worked quite well. We needed a Resident's permit (essentially a formality from the local council office) and had to fill in reams of pointless forms usually dealing with different aspects of the same thing. Non-EU people still do this today and in the absence of an agreement that is what we'll go back to.

 

[Signalcalc]

I dunno but you and your companion have some fantastic ideas about where UK will go after Brexit but if now you suggesting you have the ideas but no such leader it makes me want to laugh out even more.



You just want to get into your little boat and drift out into the sunset to live happily ever after in some culturally utopic world of isolation.

Ok you got me on the not being serious part but all I was trying to do and I'm still bewildered by Brexiteers is that end vision and what it means for you.

Stuff you and CV come out with has nothing to do with Brexit.

The Brexit on offer doesn't rally tally up with your bloggs.

Rants have no bearing on Brexit.



All the best - was going to offer you Heineken but you may it may not be your cup of tea so to speak :cheesy:

I'm more partial to a Wheat beer, although I do brew a good one myself, in fact, if anything my beer brewing reflects just how 'European' I am whilst still retaining my Britishness (I brew all styles, not American though, too hoppy for me).

See, there is another factor at play here. There is this overwhelming feeling that the Remainers are actually anti-British, they hate anything Commonwealth, anything Empire, anything Churchill, anything Medieval (Castles, Stately homes, vast tracts of wilderness owned by rich landlords etc), anything Royal, anything to do with the Flag of St.George, St Georges day and anything else that could be construed to be British or English especially.

They would rather we all be homogenised European, that we don't celebrate our differences in culture and language and food....and drink :cheers:

Why? I have no idea, I'm not even sure what the Remainers vision is either, seems we are both as bemused as each other when it comes to understanding what the other 'team' wants or needs.

I don't see it as just based on trade and regulation, there is far far more to it than that, we have survived many catastrophes throughout the centuries, Brexit may or may not be a blip, so far it's not turned out that way despite the political wranglings.

I am a Brexiteer optimist, no doubt about it, it would be soul destroying to be a down and out remainer.

Now if the shoe was on the other foot, I would just be carrying on with life as normal, but then I suspect the climate may be completely different anyway, the world would still be turning with a Eurosceptic campaign to get us out of the EU.

I don't have any words of comfort for you Att, I'm not sure how to quell your anger and frustration. If anything this thread shows how angry and frustrated we all are with this process.

If it wasn't for those pesky EU kids.........

 

[Atilla]

I'm more partial to a Wheat beer, although I do brew a good one myself, in fact, if anything my beer brewing reflects just how 'European' I am whilst still retaining my Britishness (I brew all styles, not American though, too hoppy for me).

See, there is another factor at play here. There is this overwhelming feeling that the Remainers are actually anti-British, they hate anything Commonwealth, anything Empire, anything Churchill, anything Medieval (Castles, Stately homes, vast tracts of wilderness owned by rich landlords etc), anything Royal, anything to do with the Flag of St.George, St Georges day and anything else that could be construed to be British or English especially.

They would rather we all be homogenised European, that we don't celebrate our differences in culture and language and food....and drink :cheers:

Why? I have no idea, I'm not even sure what the Remainers vision is either, seems we are both as bemused as each other when it comes to understanding what the other 'team' wants or needs.

I don't see it as just based on trade and regulation, there is far far more to it than that, we have survived many catastrophes throughout the centuries, Brexit may or may not be a blip, so far it's not turned out that way despite the political wranglings.

I am a Brexiteer optimist, no doubt about it, it would be soul destroying to be a down and out remainer.

Now if the shoe was on the other foot, I would just be carrying on with life as normal, but then I suspect the climate may be completely different anyway, the world would still be turning with a Eurosceptic campaign to get us out of the EU.

I don't have any words of comfort for you Att, I'm not sure how to quell your anger and frustration. If anything this thread shows how angry and frustrated we all are with this process.

If it wasn't for those pesky EU kids.........

I can see you are indeed a jolly chap SC but all this talk imho with all sincerity has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

Once again it just boils down to EU common market with tiers of membership and weather the British national interest is best served in or out of the market.

Much of what we have talked about including CV is just life as we know it - as someone once said.


Your vision is that UK can do better outside and remainers feel we are better off in.


Really our different World Views can be substantiated by good impact analsyts without the hype and do da di's we've thus far exchanged. Slowly but surely that's where the debate is going.

Best people and the best of the best is our Civil Servants to do that job.



All the best

 

[Signalcalc]

The sunset was the Gard (30) in France. Am moving back to the Gers (32) at the beginning of next year. As you seem to like mountains: You can buy a farmhouse (+ some land) there with views of the Pyrénees for £100k. My house here is worth a few times that - I have a garden the size of a parking space and can just about see the railway embankment through the rain.

As to how it will affect anybody. Before the EU we used to have a relationship with most of the countries of Europe that worked quite well. We needed a Resident's permit (essentially a formality from the local council office) and had to fill in reams of pointless forms usually dealing with different aspects of the same thing. Non-EU people still do this today and in the absence of an agreement that is what we'll go back to.

Interesting, thanks. We have been keeping an eye on prices for some time now, plenty of choice still. Off for a tour of the Vendee and areas later in the year

 

[Signalcalc]

I can see you are indeed a jolly chap SC but all this talk imho with all sincerity has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

Once again it just boils down to EU common market with tiers of membership and weather the British national interest is best served in or out of the market.

Much of what we have talked about including CV is just life as we know it - as someone once said.


Your vision is that UK can do better outside and remainers feel we are better off in.


Really our different World Views can be substantiated by good impact analsyts without the hype and do da di's we've thus far exchanged. Slowly but surely that's where the debate is going.

Best people and the best of the best is our Civil Servants to do that job.



All the best

It's fair enough to have one view of Brexit which is related to trade, regulation and law, but there is more to it than that, I'll wager most of the leave voters were thinking of a wide variety of reasons for leaving and had no clue about the politics, legal systems, trade arrangements, EU structure.

If you like to talk Civil Service, then do so, this thread would be ultimately the most boring single minded thread of all time related to Brexit if it was restricted to just that.....unless you are/were a civil servant

Nope, I'll inject some spice when needed, thanking you very much, 9-5, Monday to Friday are for the grey faces in life, get on the train, get off the train or is it get on the bus, get off the bus as my old Sergeant Major used to say :cheesy: