Brexit and the Consequences

[barjon]

Hi Jon,
If it's any consolation, I distinguish between remainers and remoaners. A remainer is someone who voted remain but accepts the 2016 result and is resigned to leaving. A remoaner is someone who voted remain but does not accept the 2016 result and is intent on reversing it. I have no issues with the former. Indeed, they are the reason why leave will win with an increased majority if there's a second referendum, as this large group understands and accepts that preserving our parliamentary democracy is waaay more important than any Brexit outcome. Millions of them will vote leave next time for this reason alone. Which group are you in? I put you in the remain camp for the most part, with your toe occasionally dipping into the remoan camp - usually when one of us pesky Brexiteers presses your buttons!

Tim.

No, as I said in an earlier post I’ll be in a proper quandary if (god forbid) there’s a second referendum which has remain as an option. Whilst I don’t actually think referendums have any place in our sort of democracy I would be really reluctant to overturn the first one, but I also feel so very strongly that leaving is an absurdity which my grandchildren will curse.

I think Parliament is in disarray at the moment - mainly due to May’s non-existent leadership - and is likely to abrogate it’s responsibility (again) by tossing it to “the people”. I know you think May is actively against brexit but I don’t share that view and I think she has had a weak hand to play and, of course, she has played it badly. I also think brino is actually more than brino and would go a long way to cutting free from the EU. After all, to be fully free but still in a relationship is an impossibility .

 

[timsk]

Hi Jon,

No, as I said in an earlier post I’ll be in a proper quandary if (god forbid) there’s a second referendum which has remain as an option. Whilst I don’t actually think referendums have any place in our sort of democracy I would be really reluctant to overturn the first one, but I also feel so very strongly that leaving is an absurdity which my grandchildren will curse.

It's interesting to hear you say that you'll be in a proper quandary in the event of another referendum. I say that because you are a firm remainer, with strong beliefs and convictions about the merits of the EU. I know it's a yin/yang thing and that you accept that it has 'issues', but the bottom line for you is that "leaving is an absurdity which my grandchildren will curse". How many millions (and I mean millions) of remain voters in 2016 didn't have nearly such strong convictions as you and only voted the way they did based on little more than 'better the devil you know than the devil you don't' (aka Project Fear)? These people will vote leave next time. For what it's worth - I hope you do too! ;-)

I think Parliament is in disarray at the moment - mainly due to May’s non-existent leadership - and is likely to abrogate it’s responsibility (again) by tossing it to “the people”. I know you think May is actively against brexit but I don’t share that view and I think she has had a weak hand to play and, of course, she has played it badly. I also think brino is actually more than brino and would go a long way to cutting free from the EU. After all, to be fully free but still in a relationship is an impossibility.

You're a generous bloke that thinks the best of people which, broadly speaking, is a positive trait and one I hope I have. However, for me, Mrs. May crossed the Rubicon a while ago by repeatedly saying one thing, then doing the opposite and worst of all, undermining the efforts of her own DExEU department. Unacceptable and unforgivable IMO. You say that "to be fully free but still in a relationship is an impossibility." Well, yes, in as much as we're all on this planet at the same time so we're all bound together by our common existence. But politically, we can be free and in a variety of relationships - just as every other country is that's not in the EU.
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

Maybe some of that 350m a week on the red bus can be given to fund schools.

 

[Signalcalc]

How to stop May's deal, watch from around 21 mins:

 

[Signalcalc]

Theresa 'blackmail' May has changed her tune again hasn't she? Alluding to 'we may never leave at all'

 

[0007]

Theresa 'blackmail' May has changed her tune again hasn't she? Alluding to 'we may never leave at all'

She's just trying to get us to sign up to the most favourable circumstances that will facilitate an easy re-entry. She never has been a Leaver.

 

[0007]

Theresa May at Grimsby today:
"Well, I have negotiated very hard with the EU and got a great deal for UK. They have kindly agreed to take all UK assets: state, corporate and personal - the lot. That stuff behind me is what's left for us - it's the crap they don't want."

 

[hhiusa]

Bloomberg Interview with Iain Duncan Smith 2018-03-06
If Jeffrey Cox actually changes his legal advice on the backstop, will that be enough to get this deal through parliament?
Iain Duncan Smith: There are a number of things wrong this deal being done. The Backstop is the single most important one because if you have a backstop from which you cannot leave, then the negotiators on the other side don’t have to do anything because they you will be petrified about falling into it and you’ll give everything at the end. So, what he’s doing at the moment is trying to find a way in which he can legally—and it has to be legally—ensure that the UK can leave any backstop should we not reach an agreement at the end of the next year and a half. I wish him the best of luck on that if he does come back with such a legally binding arrangement, then there’s a very good chance that they’ll get this deal through, but otherwise I think there’s not a lot of chance at all.

How many do you believe in the ERG (the European Research Group) will vote against the deal no matter what the changes to the backstop are?
Iain Duncan Smith: I can’t speak for others. All I can say is that there’s not just little groups like this. You know when you think last time the PM lost the vote by over 220 votes so there’s a lot more people than just a group of people. It’s a general sense that something’s fundamentally wrong with this agreement.
Now the EU has got to make its mind up really, if it wants the deal to go ahead, then it has to be prepared to make those changes, but if it doesn’t want the deal to go ahead then if it sits tight that will happen [NO DEAL BREXIT].I believe ultimately we will leave with no withdrawal agreement; that’s not the same as saying we won’t leave with a deal. There’s always an arrangement because of all things that will be sorted out. But what they want is they want £39 billion+ from the UK, but they won’t be getting that if they don’t make a move while Jeffrey Cox is there.

Duncan Smith what are you hearing from the people—I’m gonna go back to 2005 of Chingford and Woodford Green—what are the people actually telling you as an arch-conservative?
Iain Duncan Smith: Well if you look at the polling it’s quite clear that the vast majority want to get out now, even if they voted ‘remain’, just get on with it.The majority and my constituency are happy just to go out without a withdrawal agreement. That gets the highest scoring of the lot. That’s because what we’ve been seeing with the EU in the last few months is really not a very nice sight. It’s a group of people who you would think would want an arrangement with us and actually get-stay out as friends, but they spend their whole time slagging the UK off and deliberately making threats. That doesn’t seem to me to be a very good way to behave. Because of that, people in the UK have hardened up.

 

[hhiusa]

All I see/hear are the Bremainers harping on about how people 'pandered' to an 'anti-EU mood' with half truths and xenophobia. They're just making counterarguments to Brexit arguments. Why not instead try making a pro Bremain argument for staying in the EU. Don't just throw spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. (Mostly, I think they can't because there are none that are not superceded by an argument to the contrary).

From an American perspective, we can't understand why Britain/British people (Bremain) don't want sovereignty—real sovereignty! Make all the trade deal/immigration deals you want with those EU nations, but there's no need to be beholden to them.
But the main thing we find funny is the difference between the British in the 1700s that were tired of the snobbery, the monarchy, the useless titles, and the absolutely abysmally small private enterprise in that country that exists even now—the complete lack of upward mobility, and the British people that are still resident on that island.

But then ... Why strike out of your own when Big Brother will take care of you; give you council housing, free healthcare, etc. but keep you locked in your station with inordinately high and strange taxation. Financial transaction tax on stocks WTF. Sweden's economy soared when they abolished that. what is it now 25% for VAT. Just because folks. How is that with all those taxes, the GDP per capita of the UK is 60% of that of the US with considerably lower taxes. Maybe that's the cost of the socialist wonderland that is the UK.

I can see now what makes people fundamentally different across the pond. The percentage of people in EU countries that work for government or public servitude is much higher. If you have always worked for somebody else, you don't know what it's like to have the financial freedom of working for yourself; making those decisions. And if you have never tasted that freedom, you won't care about losing those freedoms to the EU.

 

[barjon]

All I see/hear are the Bremainers harping on about how people 'pandered' to an 'anti-EU mood' with half truths and xenophobia. They're just making counterarguments to Brexit arguments. Why not instead try making a pro Bremain argument for staying in the EU. Don't just throw spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. (Mostly, I think they can't because there are none that are not superceded by an argument to the contrary).

From an American perspective, we can't understand why Britain/British people (Bremain) don't want sovereignty—real sovereignty! Make all the trade deal/immigration deals you want with those EU nations, but there's no need to be beholden to them.
But the main thing we find funny is the difference between the British in the 1700s that were tired of the snobbery, the monarchy, the useless titles, and the absolutely abysmally small private enterprise in that country that exists even now—the complete lack of upward mobility, and the British people that are still resident on that island.

But then ... Why strike out of your own when Big Brother will take care of you; give you council housing, free healthcare, etc. but keep you locked in your station with inordinately high and strange taxation. Financial transaction tax on stocks WTF. Sweden's economy soared when they abolished that. what is it now 25% for VAT. Just because folks. How is that with all those taxes, the GDP per capita of the UK is 60% of that of the US with considerably lower taxes. Maybe that's the cost of the socialist wonderland that is the UK.

I can see now what makes people fundamentally different across the pond. The percentage of people in EU countries that work for government or public servitude is much higher. If you have always worked for somebody else, you don't know what it's like to have the financial freedom of working for yourself; making those decisions. And if you have never tasted that freedom, you won't care about losing those freedoms to the EU.

Gor blimey, guvnor. Just goes to show how little you understand us

 

[hhiusa]

Gor blimey, guvnor. Just goes to show how little you understand us

Did you forget how to read or just didn't care to read. "how little you understand us". That is hilarious because if you bothered to read I stated exactly that, "FROM AN AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE, WE CAN"T UNDERSTAND WHY ...." See second paragraph.

Try reading before you try to sound smart. Notice the operative word "understand". That is precisely the point. We can't understand you because we can't understand why you don't want complete sovereignty.

Earth to Barjon, you and many other call Americans loud, stubborn, bull-headed bullies who spent tons on the military industrial complex. That may be true. We do what we want when we want, and sometimes tell others what we want and we enjoy it. We can't understand why Britain doesn't grow a pair.

 

[barjon]

Did you forget how to read or just didn't care to read. "how little you understand us". That is hilarious because if you bothered to read I stated exactly that, "FROM AN AMERICAN PERSPECTIVE, WE CAN"T UNDERSTAND WHY ...." See second paragraph.

Try reading before you try to sound smart. Notice the operative word "understand". That is precisely the point. We can't understand you because we can't understand why you don't want complete sovereignty.

Earth to Barjon, you and many other call Americans loud, stubborn, bull-headed bullies who spent tons on the military industrial complex. That may be true. We do what we want when we want, and sometimes tell others what we want and we enjoy it. We can't understand why Britain doesn't grow a pair.

Yes, you did - regarding sovereignty. Then you go on to describe all that is wrong with us and therein lies your ignorance. We are quite happy with the size of our balls, thank you. It does enable us to walk without difficulty - I suppose that’s why you lot drive around in cars all the time

 

[Signalcalc]

Well of course the deal is going to be rejected......then oh look......we need more time to negotiate something better.... Barnier has a plan..... no May has a deal.... the Brexit secretary resigns.....Corbyn calls for a people’s vote.....the DUP reject it all.....Barnier gives us even more time....no let’s reject the second attempt.....yawn, who do these idiots think they are fooling!

Brexit secretary accuses EU of trying to 'rerun old arguments' http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47506139

 

[Atilla]

That response about American perspective says more about the lack of comprehension and intellectual capacity of the writer than just about anything else.

Moreover, to extend that perspective as if it applies to the rest of the American people is another gross misrepresentation.


I don't see whey Remainers need to make the case for staying in either. It is Brexiteers who must make the case for leaving. Words are cheap. We've seen how that's progressing. No worries we can think about our plans once we live let's just leave for now. TM good at talking but she has an awful walk (pun intended). No worries she can dance. Sort of.

Having said that UK is 5th in the GDP league tables and has 2nd largest voting block and as some would argue being served well by her membership of the union.

The union is still strong with other countries like Canada and Japan joining. There is also the great prospect of expansion to the East with the silk railroad along with numerous other big paradigm shifting projects ie Galileo satellite program, electric and driverless cars amongst good many others.

Brexiteers promises on making deal with other countries including EU ones hasn't materialised. We will still be bound by rules and regulations cut and pasted into UK books. Prices haven't come down. New houses not built. Local Councils, Police and NHS and Prisons starved of cash. Even minor issues like changing bin collections to fortnightly runs will lead to growth in vermin on run down places. Youth clubs and libraries closed. Railways charging exorbitant prices, Universities going into debt and some facing bankruptcy. Motor industries winding down production in the UK as we are no longer place to do business. Finance industries facing uncertainty. Medical Agency wanted to relocate but told they must pay up on 30 year lease. This is a big red light to any other investor making long term plans to commit to UK.

All the UK can think about is the promised land after Brexit, when we will have sovereignty to do what ever we want. Like you know all the stuff we can't do now.

So some of you out there still think remainers have to make the case for staying in Europe. It's like writing a Business Case for not doing something. Horse before cart springs to mind. Good one.

 

[cantagril]

All I see/hear are the Bremainers harping on about how people 'pandered' to an 'anti-EU mood' with half truths and xenophobia. They're just making counterarguments to Brexit arguments. Why not instead try making a pro Bremain argument for staying in the EU. Don't just throw spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. (Mostly, I think they can't because there are none that are not superceded by an argument to the contrary).

From an American perspective, we can't understand why Britain/British people (Bremain) don't want sovereignty—real sovereignty! Make all the trade deal/immigration deals you want with those EU nations, but there's no need to be beholden to them.

Fair points, especially about sovereignty, though I don't think Britain is quite ready to secede from the Union in quite the way things happened on your side of the pond. I recall that it didn't end too well for the secessionists.

As for the rest of what you say about the British and it being the view from over there - exactly the same thing is happening here where people who don't understand the cultural context across the water are attributing all sorts of reasons and motives without having an awareness of how those societies function nor of the history that engendered them.

 

[cantagril]

That response about American perspective says more about the lack of comprehension and intellectual capacity of the writer than just about anything else.

AFAIC the lack of comprehension is entirely justified and your jibe smacks of 'pot calling the kettle black" and calling into question someone's intelligence in this particular context is dealt with by an another proverb "why beholdest thou the mote in thy brother's eye, but perceivst not the beam in thine own? " Maybe not you personally but certainly thousands, if not millions of others.

 

[Atilla]

AFAIC the lack of comprehension is entirely justified and your jibe smacks of 'pot calling the kettle black" and calling into question someone's intelligence in this particular context is dealt with by an another proverb "why beholdest thou the mote in thy brother's eye, but perceivst not the beam in thine own? " Maybe not you personally but certainly thousands, if not millions of others.

LOL Nope that's me alright I acknowledge point you make .

I simply speak my mind rightly or wrongly. It's for others to judge.

As for sovereignty, I thought you were domiciled in France. Doesn't that mean you have relinquished your British values and embraced those onion smelling ones. (Am I allowed to say that? ) . Nigel Lawson your neighbour, also talks about sovereignty too. So confusing to say one thing and lead another life.

I think you are a closet remainer.

 

[cantagril]

LOL Nope that's me alright I acknowledge point you make .


As for sovereignty, I thought you were domiciled in France. Doesn't that mean you have relinquished your British values and embraced those onion smelling ones. (Am I allowed to say that? ) . Nigel Lawson your neighbour, also talks about sovereignty too. So confusing to say one thing and lead another life.

I think you are a closet remainer.

I'm currently in the UK but yes, for me, home is in Gaul - the old ways are the best. As for values; I'm inclined to follow CV's lead and to paraphrase "Those are my values and if you don't like them, well..... I have others." It may surprise you to learn that those frightful europeans share one or two of our own ideas....of course, we thought of them first, but nonetheless.....

As for "onions", AFAIK we have not added an O-word to the proscribed list so I think you're probably still OK until the pc police get onto to you.

I'm impressed by the diligence of your network as my next intended place of residence was indeed going to be Vic-Fézensac where apparently some of the un-dead now reside. I may have to rethink this. I already have a Carte de Séjour from my previous abode so I'm not overly bothered.

 

[hhiusa]

Fair points, especially about sovereignty, though I don't think Britain is quite ready to secede from the Union in quite the way things happened on your side of the pond. I recall that it didn't end too well for the secessionists.

As for the rest of what you say about the British and it being the view from over there - exactly the same thing is happening here where people who don't understand the cultural context across the water are attributing all sorts of reasons and motives without having an awareness of how those societies function nor of the history that engendered them.

Well cantagril, it seems you are one of the few level people on this forum, while some others on this thread actually believe they don't need to explain or justify their reasoning especially their Remain reason. No the Bremain argument doesn't speak for itself. And it takes an intelligent person to admit ignorance instead of somebody who pends 10s of 1,000s of post complaining calling somebody else ignorant.

People have come to believe that "I disagree" means "I don't like you", which is hilarious and feeble minded. The death of the disagreement as they say.

I don't care what side of the aisle you are on. Your point is well made about "the societies that engender them". For those that actually read my post like you, I said I couldn't understand because I didn't grow up in England with completely different rule book. I even went on to say that if that is all you ever knew, it would seem normal to you. If quasi-socialism is all you know, change is hard. Same for the no-safety-net, laissez-faire capitalism of the US. You/British people may think it odd that people don't want/don't have universal health care and all the safety net/government hand-outs that exist in the UK, but I am used to forging my own way. It isn't always fun, but why should we change, why should you change, right?

The US is based upon change and the UK is based upon tradition, yet ironically the UK is newer to democracy than US as old the UK is. The US has only ever been a democracy because we are relatively young. I believe you are correct about the societies that create a specific social order. England has existed for centuries with serfs, nobles and monarchy for so long. Britain did not become a democracy until the Representation of the People Acts of 1918 and 1928 that gave the vote to all men and women over the age of 21.

Maybe it will take centuries for those secessionist tendencies to rear their head in reference to your comment about us want to secede from "The Empire".

 

[counter_violent]

That response about American perspective says more about the lack of comprehension and intellectual capacity of the writer than just about anything else.

Moreover, to extend that perspective as if it applies to the rest of the American people is another gross misrepresentation.


I don't see whey Remainers need to make the case for staying in either. It is Brexiteers who must make the case for leaving. Words are cheap. We've seen how that's progressing. No worries we can think about our plans once we live let's just leave for now. TM good at talking but she has an awful walk (pun intended). No worries she can dance. Sort of.

Having said that UK is 5th in the GDP league tables and has 2nd largest voting block and as some would argue being served well by her membership of the union.

The union is still strong with other countries like Canada and Japan joining. There is also the great prospect of expansion to the East with the silk railroad along with numerous other big paradigm shifting projects ie Galileo satellite program, electric and driverless cars amongst good many others.

Brexiteers promises on making deal with other countries including EU ones hasn't materialised. We will still be bound by rules and regulations cut and pasted into UK books. Prices haven't come down. New houses not built. Local Councils, Police and NHS and Prisons starved of cash. Even minor issues like changing bin collections to fortnightly runs will lead to growth in vermin on run down places. Youth clubs and libraries closed. Railways charging exorbitant prices, Universities going into debt and some facing bankruptcy. Motor industries winding down production in the UK as we are no longer place to do business. Finance industries facing uncertainty. Medical Agency wanted to relocate but told they must pay up on 30 year lease. This is a big red light to any other investor making long term plans to commit to UK.

All the UK can think about is the promised land after Brexit, when we will have sovereignty to do what ever we want. Like you know all the stuff we can't do now.

So some of you out there still think remainers have to make the case for staying in Europe. It's like writing a Business Case for not doing something. Horse before cart springs to mind. Good one.

Like most all remainers fail to see the big picture.
Brexiters on the other hand are a very enlightened bunch.