Brexit and the Consequences

[forker]

Farage acknowledging referendum WAS "legally" advisory in this clip below.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37861487



And here arguing against Parliament having a say as if the Referendum was binding and then yielding to very well placed arguments and points by Gina Miller on having the constitutional change to make the Referendum binding by Parliament.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37886882


Alleluia :clap:

Summary!

Referendum not binding.

Referendum ONLY advisory.

Bring on Parliament

If it is advisory, why has it not been dropped?

 

[Pat494]

One could have a new referendum every year and no doubt get different results. That is why it should have only been valid for a 20%+ majority.

Did Mr. average know enough to make a proper judgement ? No of course not. Maybe referenda should only be voted on by people qualified to vote on that particular subject. On TV they were out asking the public why they voted. And as expected they had no clue at all.
One really can't expect the vote of the village idiot to carry as much weight as that of the college professor , on difficult subjects.
Besides it would be a good incentive for the lazy and ignorant to go to college and pay attention in class.

 

[mike.]

Alleluia :clap:

Summary!

Referendum not binding.

Referendum ONLY advisory.

Bring on Parliament

I wouldn't get your hopes up..there is no light at the end of the tunnel...All it is doing is prolonging the situation, Brexit will happen....what we have now is more uncertainty which will affect the markets and economy in general. Investment will be put on hold.. These couple of eejits who brought the case to court are poking the hornets nest, I hope it cost them thousands to bring the case, Love to see there faces when article 50 is triggered in march...because it will be.

 

[forker]

One could have a new referendum every year and no doubt get different results. That is why it should have only been valid for a 20%+ majority.

Did Mr. average know enough to make a proper judgement ? No of course not. Maybe referenda should only be voted on by people qualified to vote on that particular subject. On TV they were out asking the public why they voted. And as expected they had no clue at all.
One really can't expect the vote of the village idiot to carry as much weight as that of the college professor , on difficult subjects.
Besides it would be a good incentive for the lazy and ignorant to go to college and pay attention in class.

A 20 percent majority won't work. What happens if in a general election you don't get a party with a 20 percent majority? Or what happens in a referendum if no side gets it? Do you repeat the referendum until one side wins? It's nonsensical to do it this way

 

[Atilla]

If it is advisory, why has it not been dropped?

Because it is significant and Politicians and Parliament should listen to the will of the people as they are.

I'm not against Brexit being delivered if in UK interests. However, it should be by Parliament and not pockets of interest and politicians pursuing personal agendas. Or media circus and disenfranchised bodies voting on false promises of jobs, rising wages and reduced migration and the £350m to NHS. Not happening!

As mentioned before Parliament is where the debate should take place not in the papers or by politicians lying to the people. You can't lie in Parliament. You'll be pulled aside.

I'm shocked and stunned Conservatives having fought min wage so hard and for so long now telling us they'll raise wages and create millions of jobs up North. Do you guys seriously believe these promises from your politicians they can? Where is Gove now?

Next hurdle is to sort out Theresa May with that rubbish about Brexit means Brexit and all that nonsense about not showing ones hand and negotiating in secret.

Negotiations to leave are no secret. Terms need to be discussed, objectives prioritised and red lines spelt out. One does not have secret negotiations impacting nations. Can someone remind me which treaty or international agreement was EVER negotiated in secret?

The whole globe already knows about the poorly crafted and ill thought out referendum and the upcoming invocation of article 50 to kick it off.

Difficult woman indeed. She needs to listen to her counsel and cut the ad-lib with all that Brexit means Brexit (which means nowt ). I'm beginning to feel saturated with her approach to politics already.

 

[Atilla]

I wouldn't get your hopes up..there is no light at the end of the tunnel...All it is doing is prolonging the situation, Brexit will happen....what we have now is more uncertainty which will affect the markets and economy in general. Investment will be put on hold.. These couple of eejits who brought the case to court are poking the hornets nest, I hope it cost them thousands to bring the case, Love to see there faces when article 50 is triggered in march...because it will be.

Always say man lives on hope when times are hard.

However, we are a leading nation in the globe and words like being great again and let's have hope and talking of past glory, when one is at the top is when ideas have run out and people are firing on empty.

Consistency, perseverance and determination to succeed is what counts at the top.

Stay true, try hard ones best and move on making things better.

Beg to differ about holding up rule of law. Gina Miller is doing service to our constitution in clarifying a very important momentus decision and how we should approach it.

She should be given honours. :idea:

 

[forker]

Because it is significant and Politicians and Parliament should listen to the will of the people as they are.

I'm not against Brexit being delivered if in UK interests. However, it should be by Parliament and not pockets of interest and politicians pursuing personal agendas. Or media circus and disenfranchised bodies voting on false promises of jobs, rising wages and reduced migration and the £350m to NHS. Not happening!

As mentioned before Parliament is where the debate should take place not in the papers or by politicians lying to the people. You can't lie in Parliament. You'll be pulled aside.

I'm shocked and stunned Conservatives having fought min wage so hard and for so long now telling us they'll raise wages and create millions of jobs up North. Do you guys seriously believe these promises from your politicians they can? Where is Gove now?

Next hurdle is to sort out Theresa May with that rubbish about Brexit means Brexit and all that nonsense about not showing ones hand and negotiating in secret.

Negotiations to leave are no secret. Terms need to be discussed, objectives prioritised and red lines spelt out. One does not have secret negotiations impacting nations. Can someone remind me which treaty or international agreement was EVER negotiated in secret?

The whole globe already knows about the poorly crafted and ill thought out referendum and the upcoming invocation of article 50 to kick it off.

Difficult woman indeed. She needs to listen to her counsel and cut the ad-lib with all that Brexit means Brexit (which means nowt ). I'm beginning to feel saturated with her approach to politics already.

You waffling off the question now. So it is advisory but at the same time career suicide and potential problematic in its ability to raise new groups that are anti government as they don't listen to a vote that had a winner (as grey as that might seem to some people). If it was a general election it would have been accepted. So the point of throwing the argument of it not being legally binding is pointless as the repercussions of treating it otherwise have similar weight in outcome as if it was legally binding.

This is politics and the game is played unfairly on all fronts. The USA elections is a splendid example of this.

 

[Atilla]

You waffling off the question now. So it is advisory but at the same time career suicide and potential problematic in its ability to raise new groups that are anti government as they don't listen to a vote that had a winner (as grey as that might seem to some people). If it was a general election it would have been accepted. So the point of throwing the argument of it not being legally binding is pointless as the repercussions of treating it otherwise have similar weight in outcome as if it was legally binding.

This is politics and the game is played unfairly on all fronts. The USA elections is a splendid example of this.

Your question was why has it not been dropped?

My answer - Because it is significant and Politicians and Parliament should listen to the will of the people as they are important.

Debates, discussions and approach to what Brexit means will be determined and voted on by Parliament. When Parliament and the People are fully and accurately informed article 50 can be invoked if desired.

 

[mike.]

Always say man lives on hope when times are hard.

Hairdressing a bit slack at the moment Deir ??

 

[forker]

Your question was why has it not been dropped?

My answer - Because it is significant and Politicians and Parliament should listen to the will of the people as they are important.

Debates, discussions and approach to what Brexit means will be determined and voted on by Parliament. When Parliament and the People are fully and accurately informed article 50 can be invoked if desired.


[emoji106]

My question was in reference to you banging on about it not being legally binding. Your language around this specific area points to you referring to it being dropped. I should point out in your reference to it being a good thing that parlaiment has to vote is not great when you look at the detail. This is only going to complicate matters making it much worse in the end. Firstly I don't trust politicians to make decisions for the better of the people as they, for the most part, live very different lives to the rest of us. They steal from us as was evident from the scale of their expenses. Most of them have ties to wealth and companies making them somewhat biased. Finally they lack the courage to make bold steps and would rather step in a fashion that preserved their way of life. I am not trying to be anti government here I am just pointing out that it would be far more effective to have a team that is dedicated to negotiating rather than a bunch of mps decide what's best for themselves.

 

[counter_violent]

My question was in reference to you banging on about it not being legally binding. Your language around this specific area points to you referring to it being dropped. I should point out in your reference to it being a good thing that parlaiment has to vote is not great when you look at the detail. This is only going to complicate matters making it much worse in the end. Firstly I don't trust politicians to make decisions for the better of the people as they, for the most part, live very different lives to the rest of us. They steal from us as was evident from the scale of their expenses. Most of them have ties to wealth and companies making them somewhat biased. Finally they lack the courage to make bold steps and would rather step in a fashion that preserved their way of life. I am not trying to be anti government here I am just pointing out that it would be far more effective to have a team that is dedicated to negotiating rather than a bunch of mps decide what's best for themselves.

That's why they are all in shock and unable to do the right thing. Conflicted interests you might say.

However, they also know that the game is up cos the people have spoken. Go against the unwashed masses at their peril.

As Barjon said, they will think twice about giving the people their say in future !

 

[Splitlink]

If it is advisory, why has it not been dropped?

You said it---that's the way the political game is played.

As long as the referendum works, ie. no problems before March end, then Art 50 would have been triggered and the UK out in two years.

It looks as if a spanner has been thrown into the works but, don't worry, the games's not over, yet, and it isn't, even, Christmas.

 

[Atilla]

My question was in reference to you banging on about it not being legally binding. Your language around this specific area points to you referring to it being dropped. I should point out in your reference to it being a good thing that parlaiment has to vote is not great when you look at the detail. This is only going to complicate matters making it much worse in the end. Firstly I don't trust politicians to make decisions for the better of the people as they, for the most part, live very different lives to the rest of us. They steal from us as was evident from the scale of their expenses. Most of them have ties to wealth and companies making them somewhat biased. Finally they lack the courage to make bold steps and would rather step in a fashion that preserved their way of life. I am not trying to be anti government here I am just pointing out that it would be far more effective to have a team that is dedicated to negotiating rather than a bunch of mps decide what's best for themselves.

Super post forker and you echo my sentiments on the nail.

With respect to time and cost the decision is one which is very high impact to the UK and thus warrants the detail and length of discussion so that the correct decision is arrived at.

 

[barjon]

Yeah, it's a crying shame innit. The rot set in when MPs started being paid but, even then, I trusted that they acted in what they thought were the best interests of our country and its people. Increasingly, though, the evidence of snouts in the trough mounted until cynicism overtakes trust and now even the good ones are viewed with suspicion.

If you can't trust your leadership then you've really no where to go.

 

[counter_violent]

Super post forker and you echo my sentiments on the nail.

With respect to time and cost the decision is one which is very high impact to the UK and thus warrants the detail and length of discussion so that the correct decision is arrived at.

The decision has been made. The people have spoken.

Anything that prevents the decision being carried out is just obstruction, and will be seen as such.

 

[Atilla]

The decision has been made. The people have spoken.

Anything that prevents the decision being carried out is just obstruction, and will be seen as such.

Do you know the difference between giving advice and making a decision?

We live in a democracy not dictatorship. This is England not a banana republic.

 

[counter_violent]

Yeah, it's a crying shame innit. The rot set in when MPs started being paid but, even then, I trusted that they acted in what they thought were the best interests of our country and its people. Increasingly, though, the evidence of snouts in the trough mounted until cynicism overtakes trust and now even the good ones are viewed with suspicion.

If you can't trust your leadership then you've really no where to go.

Exactly !



Quote:


Originally Posted by dbphoenix View Post

Each time I watch a Trump rally or hear an interview with a Trump supporter or listen to some pundit justifying the intolerable, the vitriol and lying overwhelms and sickens me. Trump has opened the door for massive multitudes to express something devastating and spiteful in America, a door that I do not know how to close, a space I do not know how to deal with psychologically and simply cannot abide. And yet, I continue to addictively soak up this loathing and rage, perhaps because I wish to punish myself for having worked so hard to blindly disregard what has been staring at me from the abyss: Maybe this is the true face, the deep face, the permanent dreadful face of America, the irrevocable part of America that has always been there and that I can no longer delude myself will ever, not now and not tomorrow, be redeemed.

I fear that this rift in the beloved community, even if, as seems likely, Hillary Clinton wins, can never be healed; I fear that I will no longer be able to console my split identity with the hope I have clung to, since childhood, that the America of the people, by the people, for the people, does not deserve to perish from the earth.

Perhaps disturbed is the wrong word for what I and so many of my compatriots are feeling.

Perhaps the right word is grief.

--Ariel Dorfman

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post 1074

This goes to the root of the problem.

When the state, the politicians and vested interest groups take over and the people lose power and control, then this is exactly what you can expect. A backlash of such magnitude, that it becomes a game changer.

Trump, however detestable, has tapped into this discontent. The genie is out of the bottle and it won't be going back in.


http://www.trade2win.com/boards/foyer/206278-next-us-president-27.html

 

[counter_violent]

Do you know the difference between giving advice and making a decision?

We live in a democracy not dictatorship. This is England not a banana republic.

Then I suggest you abide by the will of the people and quit all the remoaning on and on and on.

 

[Atilla]

Exactly !



Quote:


Originally Posted by dbphoenix View Post

Each time I watch a Trump rally or hear an interview with a Trump supporter or listen to some pundit justifying the intolerable, the vitriol and lying overwhelms and sickens me. Trump has opened the door for massive multitudes to express something devastating and spiteful in America, a door that I do not know how to close, a space I do not know how to deal with psychologically and simply cannot abide. And yet, I continue to addictively soak up this loathing and rage, perhaps because I wish to punish myself for having worked so hard to blindly disregard what has been staring at me from the abyss: Maybe this is the true face, the deep face, the permanent dreadful face of America, the irrevocable part of America that has always been there and that I can no longer delude myself will ever, not now and not tomorrow, be redeemed.

I fear that this rift in the beloved community, even if, as seems likely, Hillary Clinton wins, can never be healed; I fear that I will no longer be able to console my split identity with the hope I have clung to, since childhood, that the America of the people, by the people, for the people, does not deserve to perish from the earth.

Perhaps disturbed is the wrong word for what I and so many of my compatriots are feeling.

Perhaps the right word is grief.

--Ariel Dorfman

This goes to the root of the problem.

When the state, the politicians and vested interest groups take over and the people lose power and control, then this is exactly what you can expect. A backlash of such magnitude, that it becomes a game changer.

Trump, however detestable, has tapped into this discontent. The genie is out of the bottle and it won't be going back in.


Post 1074

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/foyer/206278-next-us-president-27.html

Yes and it is a two edged sword. Can cut for you and against you.

You can put lipstick on a pig it's still a pig.

You can brandish an advisory ill thought out referendum as much as you like as binding and try and turn it into legislative door but it's simply wrong.

This is why Parliament must be consulted and make the laws and we must have an independent judiciary to apply them.


:idea:

 

[counter_violent]

Yes and it is a two edged sword. Can cut for you and against you.

You can put lipstick on a pig it's still a pig.

You can brandish an advisory ill thought out referendum as much as you like as binding and try and turn it into legislative door but it's simply wrong.

This is why Parliament must be consulted and make the laws and we must have an independent judiciary to apply them.


:idea:

The very same people who got us all into this mess.

Of course, we should trust them implicitly.

NOT !