Brexit and the Consequences

[Signalcalc]

You are fundamentally flawed in your analysis. European court of human rights is the best in the world. It protects your freedom not transgress them. It doesn't have bias and that's why so many including us have signed up to it.

Europe is free. You really buy all this b0ll0x about taking back control, independence and freedom as if it is something you lost or don't have. It's the other way round matey. You need to get out and travel a bit more.


How is your freedoms going to be any more or less with Brexit? I'd say less but I'm sure you'll say otherwise.


I'm still yet to discover what my culture is. I just exist in an environment whatever suits me. You should visit us down here in Brighton and see all the different people, the way they dress talk and chill. Life is free, easy and really really great by the sea


If the Scottish Nationalist Party want to be part of European Union what does that say about you and CV's vision about UK and EU?

Contradictory to you two perhaps but instead of light bulbs going inside your heads you laugh it off with your rear.


All will become clear soon enough. Same again give it about 5-10 years for sh!t to sink.

If the SNP win an independence referendum, I think we should just ignore the result.

 

[Atilla]

If the SNP win an independence referendum, I think we should just ignore the result.

It depends on how it is structured, communicated and conducted.

Not all referendums are the same.


Needs brain power. :idea:

 

[counter_violent]

If the SNP win an independence referendum, I think we should just ignore the result.

SNP continually dodging the issue. I recon when it comes down to it, the Scots know they can't go it alone.

As for the Scots joining Europe....it's just pie in the sky.

 

[counter_violent]

You are fundamentally flawed in your analysis. European court of human rights is the best in the world. It protects your freedom not transgress them. It doesn't have bias and that's why so many including us have signed up to it.

Europe is free. You really buy all this b0ll0x about taking back control, independence and freedom as if it is something you lost or don't have. It's the other way round matey. You need to get out and travel a bit more.


How is your freedoms going to be any more or less with Brexit? I'd say less but I'm sure you'll say otherwise.


I'm still yet to discover what my culture is. I just exist in an environment whatever suits me. You should visit us down here in Brighton and see all the different people, the way they dress talk and chill. Life is free, easy and really really great by the sea


If the Scottish Nationalist Party want to be part of European Union what does that say about you and CV's vision about UK and EU?

Contradictory to you two perhaps but instead of light bulbs going inside your heads you laugh it off with your rear.


All will become clear soon enough. Same again give it about 5-10 years for sh!t to sink.

TBH, i'd hate to live in your dream world, where nothing makes any sense

 

[Atilla]

TBH, i'd hate to live in your dream world, where nothing makes any sense

Simply put, the Scottish people potentially see greater freedom and benefit from being a member of the EU union than sticking with the UK union and leaving the EU.

Simple enough to me.

What do you not understand?

 

[tomorton]

Simply put, the Scottish people potentially see greater freedom and benefit from being a member of the EU union than sticking with the UK union and leaving the EU.

Simple enough to me.

What do you not understand?

Its become obvious over the years that the Scottish people want to vent their resentment at what they see as the favoured treatment of England concerns by Parliament. They are also more inclined to the left and have rarely found much common ground with UK Conservatives. None of this means they wish to be an independent country in reality like Norway.

As for the SNP, its clear they wish to have authority to rule their country but avoid the responsibility of running an independent state. Isn't that the ideal for any politician, authority without responsibility? The last thing the SNP want is to have an independent Scotland, have their MP's excluded from the UK's Parliament and nobody to blame for the country's ills except themselves.

Nevertheless, SNP MP's in the Commons should always be regarded as saboteurs, as their aim benefits from failure of any and all UK policies. Its quite naked ambition on display when they concern themselves in Westminster with matters which are nothing to do with Scotland as such.

 

[Atilla]

Its become obvious over the years that the Scottish people want to vent their resentment at what they see as the favoured treatment of England concerns by Parliament. They are also more inclined to the left and have rarely found much common ground with UK Conservatives. None of this means they wish to be an independent country in reality like Norway.

As for the SNP, its clear they wish to have authority to rule their country but avoid the responsibility of running an independent state. Isn't that the ideal for any politician, authority without responsibility? The last thing the SNP want is to have an independent Scotland, have their MP's excluded from the UK's Parliament and nobody to blame for the country's ills except themselves.

Nevertheless, SNP MP's in the Commons should always be regarded as saboteurs, as their aim benefits from failure of any and all UK policies. Its quite naked ambition on display when they concern themselves in Westminster with matters which are nothing to do with Scotland as such.

That is some creative spin!!! Wow.

Are we to deduce from your argument that EU now running all member countries economies, parliament and people somewhat like a totalitarian regime? Or have I overstated your overstated statement?

Saboteurs you say. That is very strong language. They are not the enemy.

If I was a Scot I'd feel cheated about Brexit. I also did want them to stay in the UK and am against independence but not if UK going to play silly buggers with a handful of self-vested daft politicians in London. Wales, NI and Scotland all feeling the Brexit chill and you say they are saboteurs compared to our fine upstanding politicians???


I can't help thinking you are carrying some heavy luggage there but who knows?

 

[mike.]

Where’s our resident Scotsman Sir Davie Robinson when you need him ? He would keep us right on the sentiment of the Scottish people regarding a 2nd ref, he hasn’t been around for a bit, well ever since half the forum followed his last trades like lemmings and lost their shirts.

 

[tomorton]

That is some creative spin!!! Wow.

Are we to deduce from your argument that EU now running all member countries economies, parliament and people somewhat like a totalitarian regime? Or have I overstated your overstated statement?

Saboteurs you say. That is very strong language. They are not the enemy.

If I was a Scot I'd feel cheated about Brexit. I also did want them to stay in the UK and am against independence but not if UK going to play silly buggers with a handful of self-vested daft politicians in London. Wales, NI and Scotland all feeling the Brexit chill and you say they are saboteurs compared to our fine upstanding politicians???


I can't help thinking you are carrying some heavy luggage there but who knows?

EU? Totalitarian? I didn't say that. Perish the thought.

Saboteurs, exactly. The success of an SNP independence campaign correlates with the failure of UK policies.

 

[Atilla]

EU? Totalitarian? I didn't say that. Perish the thought.

Saboteurs, exactly. The success of an SNP independence campaign correlates with the failure of UK policies.

No you didn't but that's what I deduce from your statement when you say "its clear they wish to have authority to rule their country but avoid the responsibility of running an independent state".

Are you not suggesting responsibility will lie with the EU? How so?

You are a pure economist as I understand it, so it's only rational that labour, capital, business, institutions and Scotland choose to leave the UK.

It's simply good business sense.

Leaving UK and joining EU not going to change Scots being Scots or Scotland to lose name and identity. At the same time allowing Scots to travel and work anywhere in the EU as opposed to just the UK.

This is pretty obvious to me. If some insist on the stiff upper lip, stick it out we are British approach living up in cold wet damp overcast windy bit England up North then that's also all well and good let Brexit roll.


Non ce ne sont pas des saboteurs, sacre bleu

 

[tomorton]

No you didn't but that's what I deduce from your statement when you say "its clear they wish to have authority to rule their country but avoid the responsibility of running an independent state".

Are you not suggesting responsibility will lie with the EU? How so?

You are a pure economist as I understand it, so it's only rational that labour, capital, business, institutions and Scotland choose to leave the UK.

It's simply good business sense.

Leaving UK and joining EU not going to change Scots being Scots or Scotland to lose name and identity. At the same time allowing Scots to travel and work anywhere in the EU as opposed to just the UK.

This is pretty obvious to me. If some insist on the stiff upper lip, stick it out we are British approach living up in cold wet damp overcast windy bit England up North then that's also all well and good let Brexit roll.


Non ce ne sont pas des saboteurs, sacre bleu

I have been posting tonight only with regards the SNP. I mean the SNP clearly wish to have authority to run Scotland but not the responsibility of running it as an independent country. As long as Scotland remains within the UK they can blame Westminster for all the bad things that happen and for the obstruction of all the great things they would have done if only Scotland had been independent. As long as it remains within the EU they can blame Brussels.

Its a great political game which the SNP could lose by winning independence and leaving the UK. No wonder they're scared of Brexit. Look back just a little way to how UKIP became irrelevant as soon as the EU referendum went their way.

 

[counter_violent]

No you didn't but that's what I deduce from your statement when you say "its clear they wish to have authority to rule their country but avoid the responsibility of running an independent state".

Are you not suggesting responsibility will lie with the EU? How so?

You are a pure economist as I understand it, so it's only rational that labour, capital, business, institutions and Scotland choose to leave the UK.

It's simply good business sense.

Leaving UK and joining EU not going to change Scots being Scots or Scotland to lose name and identity. At the same time allowing Scots to travel and work anywhere in the EU as opposed to just the UK.

This is pretty obvious to me. If some insist on the stiff upper lip, stick it out we are British approach living up in cold wet damp overcast windy bit England up North then that's also all well and good let Brexit roll.


Non ce ne sont pas des saboteurs, sacre bleu

Every sensible Scot knows ya canny run a country on Tartan and Shortbread.

SNP are on the wane, probably because they have been found out to be utterly useless in Govt. Should they ever succeed in convincing the Scots to leave the UK, the brain and capital outflows would just about finish them off.

 

[Signalcalc]

It depends on how it is structured, communicated and conducted.



Not all referendums are the same.





Needs brain power. :idea:

Why would changing the wording make it any more anti-democratic? We are not in the business of democracy any longer. I don’t care what the majority votes for. It is the minority we must respect first and foremost 🧠

 

[sminicooper]

Why would changing the wording make it any more anti-democratic? We are not in the business of democracy any longer. I don’t care what the majority votes for. It is the minority we must respect first and foremost 🧠

It's the new culture. Eg. no-platforming of disagreeable views at our "learned institutions", mob rule by social media, trial by #MeToo. Churchill is now apparently on a par with Hitler. Stalin & Mao were good guys. Staying in the EU is "leaving". The State always knows best.

When I first read Orwell's 1984 I though it was fantasy. I don't think that any longer.

 

[Signalcalc]

It's the new culture. Eg. no-platforming of disagreeable views at our "learned institutions", mob rule by social media, trial by #MeToo. Churchill is now apparently on a par with Hitler. Stalin & Mao were good guys. Staying in the EU is "leaving". The State always knows best.

When I first read Orwell's 1984 I though it was fantasy. I don't think that any longer.

On the subject of 1984, the sentiment of the saying "the fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists", (often attributed to Churchill, incorrectly it would appear), rings so true in our present time.

There is none so fascist as current left-wing politics, but it is not just restricted to the left, the so-called right, being the Tories, have adopted the Orwellian nightmare that none of us would have thought was possible, was started some time ago now and has accelerated in it's spread in recent years, where it will end who knows!

It made me chuckle recently when a heterosexual couple won a court case to the right to a civil partnership, something that was brought into law for homosexuals at least a decade ago and was in itself discriminatory against heterosexuals when it was introduced. What a tied-up tangle these politically correct policies manage to find themselves in, implemented by idiots with no understanding of the risks or the unintended consequences.

Unfortunately it seems the Western world is run by the fascist anti-fascists, populist style government appears on the surface to present the antithesis and would go some way to restoring some common sense, but I don't think it will provide all the answers.

It feels that we need a middle ground ideology based on Western style freedoms, that can be voted for by a majority, alas, I feel that people are ultimately too far split to be able to come together in the current political climate.

 

[sminicooper]

On the subject of 1984, the sentiment of the saying "the fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists", (often attributed to Churchill, incorrectly it would appear), rings so true in our present time.

There is none so fascist as current left-wing politics, but it is not just restricted to the left, the so-called right, being the Tories, have adopted the Orwellian nightmare that none of us would have thought was possible, was started some time ago now and has accelerated in it's spread in recent years, where it will end who knows!

It made me chuckle recently when a heterosexual couple won a court case to the right to a civil partnership, something that was brought into law for homosexuals at least a decade ago and was in itself discriminatory against heterosexuals when it was introduced. What a tied-up tangle these politically correct policies manage to find themselves in, implemented by idiots with no understanding of the risks or the unintended consequences.

Unfortunately it seems the Western world is run by the fascist anti-fascists, populist style government appears on the surface to present the antithesis and would go some way to restoring some common sense, but I don't think it will provide all the answers.

It feels that we need a middle ground ideology based on Western style freedoms, that can be voted for by a majority, alas, I feel that people are ultimately too far split to be able to come together in the current political climate.

That all makes a lot of sense to me.

As far as a new "middle ground" (in the UK at least) doesn't seem much prospect at the moment unless, as seems increasingly likely, the Conservatives make a complete dog's breakfast of Brexit resulting in a general election. The most likely outcome of that would be either another dose of a "winning" May or the dreadful prospect of a Corbyn / McDonnell government. Surely that would prompt the establishment of something new? Or am I just being deluded and not recognising that the great masses will take what ever's given to them?

 

[Signalcalc]

That all makes a lot of sense to me.

As far as a new "middle ground" (in the UK at least) doesn't seem much prospect at the moment unless, as seems increasingly likely, the Conservatives make a complete dog's breakfast of Brexit resulting in a general election. The most likely outcome of that would be either another dose of a "winning" May or the dreadful prospect of a Corbyn / McDonnell government. Surely that would prompt the establishment of something new? Or am I just being deluded and not recognising that the great masses will take what ever's given to them?

There are 3 main problems as I see it:

1. The 2 mainstream parties are so far removed from the central ground and the majority of the UK electorate that it would take a monumental effort for them to regain the centre, if that was their wish. The only way I could see that happening is if those parties split and the split elements are seen to be more centrist.
   
2. The vote amongst the electorate is too far split to be able to vote in a next majority government, the latest Tory/DUP is a fudge, the previous Tory/LibDem was a fudge a future Lab/LibDem would be a fudge and so on.
   
3. Large sections of the electorate are stuck in a mainstream mindset, if they even care about politics, if they vote it will be a mainstream vote and so the 2 mainstream parties will continue to maintain a lead over all other parties, albeit without a majority.

I can see that the UK voting system will have to change at some point to proportional representation and we will become like many other European countries, where more minority voices have an influence. The problem here for the main UK parties is that providing mainstream oxygen to minor parties through PR will only encourage people to vote for those minorities, which could eventually have a shot at power.

This has been seen recently across Europe and the 2 UK mainstream parties are more than reticent to go down the PR route for this very reason and have in fact adopted the Orwellian approach to stop alternative views being expressed in the mainstream media channels, you can see where all this has been headed. PR is very dangerous ground for mainstream parties.

The next election should see a shift similar to 2015 where lots of disaffected voters move to independents like UKIP and a plethora of other parties vying for the alternative vote to the mainstream, however, nothing will change.

 

[tomorton]

Good summary SC. By rights either the Labour or Conservative parties should have split a while back - many Conservatives are strongly Euro-sceptic and most Labour MP's are strongly Corbyn-sceptic. But they all know that whichever party splits into two first automatically loses - firstly because they obviously lose the proportion of parliamentary seats still occupied by their former colleagues but also because that split would potentially bind the opposing party together with sight of a clear majority over the smaller opponents. As the military rule says, never divide your strength in the face of the enemy.

The upside is stability. Weak leadership but not extreme leadership either. Which is good to my mind as I don't have absolute faith in the benefits or justness of the rule of the majority anyway.

 

[Atilla]

I have been posting tonight only with regards the SNP. I mean the SNP clearly wish to have authority to run Scotland but not the responsibility of running it as an independent country. As long as Scotland remains within the UK they can blame Westminster for all the bad things that happen and for the obstruction of all the great things they would have done if only Scotland had been independent. As long as it remains within the EU they can blame Brussels.

It's a great political game which the SNP could lose by winning independence and leaving the UK. No wonder they're scared of Brexit. Look back just a little way to how UKIP became irrelevant as soon as the EU referendum went their way.

You still pushing your thread, uphill. Trying pulling it, you may get a better response.

You say EU want to punish and the Scots want to sabotage us??? You playing the victim whilst kicking sand into every parties face. It's difficult to take you seriously.

Membership of the EU is a choice. Not compulsory.

Scots were told if they left the UK, that they would have to resubmit a new application for membership, which the UK would veto. Then all change and UK decides to Brexit and takes Scotland down with it, despite a large part of Scotland choosing to stay in EU.


Are you not able to see your double standards, sabotaging Scotlands' interests and braking referendum promises on independence?


This Brexit fiasco is an absolute mess with detrimental consequences on all parties and sides for the benefit of few politicians who get prominence and airtime.


It is an utter and total disaster now as it pans out and this is nothing compared to the outcome it will lead to in the years to come.

 

[Atilla]

That all makes a lot of sense to me.

As far as a new "middle ground" (in the UK at least) doesn't seem much prospect at the moment unless, as seems increasingly likely, the Conservatives make a complete dog's breakfast of Brexit resulting in a general election. The most likely outcome of that would be either another dose of a "winning" May or the dreadful prospect of a Corbyn / McDonnell government. Surely that would prompt the establishment of something new? Or am I just being deluded and not recognising that the great masses will take what ever's given to them?

Much like Thatcher, Tories sow the seeds of division in the country, dividing the union, breaking away from the EU to pursue narrow self-interest of vested minority groups.

Just to recap, all this originates from refugee crises initiated by wars in the ME and spring uprising supported by UK and France. EU rules and directives load of b0ll0x much of it introduced by UK and NFU. This BS about taking back control is effectively no real control as Parliament has become dysfunctional.

I mean look at some of your posts below. Them and us. Tories and Labour. Splits within parties. Fragmentation of belief systems. UK union in jeopardy. UK choosing to leave EU and yet unaware of the dangers facing the break up of the UK.

Parliament and the people have no control. UK has lost control. Lost international prestige and to come back from all this means eating humble pie.

Canada +++ deal, how great will that be. Woooohoooo we are going to be treated like Canada. Yay. Does the man on the street understand what that means?

Peeps turning into headless chickens. Going to get run over by a juggernaut of events overwhelming mega-minds. Trying to organise a p!ss up in a brewery comes to mind.



I'm ever so glad it all makes a lot of sense to you.