Brexit and the Consequences

[counter_violent]

Question for you SC...

If we have free movement of people in EU why is Merkel struggling with immigration and about to lose her seat?

She will lose power for the very same reasons that the UK voted for Brexit. The majority of the voting public, both here and elsewhere, have decided that enough is enough as far as being railroaded down policy routes that they find unacceptable. This applies the world over as evidenced by shifting trends. It's not difficult to understand. The fact that the establishment needs to catch up and get a grip is why Brexiters feel compelled to keep the pressure on.

We knew exactly what we voted for unlike the remoaners who have failed to satisfactorily answer the questions posed to them.

As Barjon reminds us at every opportunity, "elections are usually lost not won", so the establishment have failed to convince us that we were on the right path. The same can be said of the referendum result.

The difficulty you are having with such results is because everything that Brexiters predicted in the build up to the vote is actually coming true.

 

[Signalcalc]

What I'm suggesting, stating is that one needs to distinguish between free movement of labour; EU migration and external non-EU migration. They are clearly not the same.

They are the same if non-EU migrants become EU citizens and they do become citizens as there is no intention of sending them back. They are the same if the EU is imposing non-EU migrant quotas on EU member governments.

People fleeing war torn countries not the same as people seeking work or fulfilling vacancies.

People fleeing or people trafficked?

And therein lies one of the root causes of EU non-EU immigration policies, nobody is making the distinction between genuine refugees and economic migrants when it it plainly obvious that most immigrants are not genuine refugees. Highlighted by a German Chief of Police stating that there are at least 100,000 undocumented migrants they have no knowledge of in Germany alone. Immigrants that don't work, don't pay taxes, consume benefits and services at the expense of host country tax payers.

And how many criminals are getting rich off the back of this immigration, aided and abetted by NGOs and EU (politically correct) policy?

Different policies need to deal with different migration types. :idea:

Try telling that to the EU

 

[counter_violent]

I was't aware I was being vituperative towards remainers, my expression of opinion is not harsh, intolerant or viciously abusive!

My opinion appears to agree with your view. The current state of politics is such that any criticism of immigration policies leads to a shut down of debate with slurs and smears ensuing, usually by the left wing, which tend to be remainers and by the media, which tend to be the establishment mouthpieces, regardless of the position of the person hoping to debate immigration (either left, right or centrist).

I would agree with your view that immigration has been an issue since the 50's, we've seen ignorance and racism continue to this day, although the overt expression of ignorance and racism has drastically reduced because of the shutdown of debate by successive governments, the introduction of political correctness, the invention of 'hate crimes', the right not to be insulted, the reduction of free speech on social media and the invention of words such as 'Islamophobia', none of which is applied equally by the state or the instruments of state.

There is now no way of telling if the same intolerance exists as it did in the 50's and if it continues to the same extent today. If people have a legitimate right to express their views in non-racist, non-violent ways, then they aren't given a chance. My view is that remainers promote this, just as you see the reluctance to discuss immigration in the context of Brexit, they shutdown the debate often with the 'racist' term attached to it, de-platforming speakers in universities or in hustings where democracy should be taking precedence.

Interesting times to see how this will work out, interesting to see that the establishment think they can quell the thoughts of people using legislation and the media, interesting to see that from the 50's the oppression was of the left by the establishment and how that has now turned into oppression of anyone by the left and the establishment.

It's almost as if the left has taken over the establishment, regardless of which government is in power and is using the rule of law, the judiciary, the police, the intelligence agencies and the institutions to crackdown on 'free speech' to suppress the 'people'.

The role Brexit has played is to highlight the divisions that exist, the polarisation already existed, but since the debate over Europe has opened up somewhat since, people now feel the need to express themselves more. In response, the government cracks down

Britain is/has been the most tolerant country in the world, for a long time, especially towards minorities, we have traditionally allowed anyone and everyone to take their place in terms of equality, we had been doing very well compared to other countries, it has been a struggle, many people have died along the way, there is now a risk of that being overturned because governments won't allow reasoned debate about subjects they deem to be politically correct.

Have to bring Tommy Robinson back into the debate at this point. He is currently back in prison on some trumped up justification, because he dared to report on the trial of grooming gangs.

 

[Signalcalc]

She will lose power for the very same reasons that the UK voted for Brexit. The majority of the voting public, both here and elsewhere, have decided that enough is enough as far as being railroaded down policy routes that they find unacceptable. This applies the world over as evidenced by shifting trends. It's not difficult to understand. The fact that the establishment needs to catch up and get a grip is why Brexiters feel compelled to keep the pressure on.

We knew exactly what we voted for unlike the remoaners who have failed to satisfactorily answer the questions posed to them.

As Barjon reminds us at every opportunity, "elections are usually lost not won", so the establishment have failed to convince us that we were on the right path. The same can be said of the referendum result.

The difficulty you are having with such results is because everything that Brexiters predicted in the build up to the vote is actually coming true.

Simple questions for Remainers that never get answered or are reluctant to answer:

How will the UK influence EU policy in the future given that it has hardly done so in the past?
How will the EU determine genuine refugees from economic migrants, given that it has failed to implement any checks thus far?
How many genuine refugees will be returned to country of origin once country is stable?
How many non-refugees have been returned to originating country already?
What steps are being taken to integrate immigrants into host country culture whilst allowing freedom of expression and religion, to the point where immigrants respect the culture and people of the host country and do not form enclaves of 'no-go' zones or intimidate the local host population or increase the crime rates beyond that that would normally be expected of such a population increase?
What steps are being taken to ensure every immigrant engages in productive work and pays taxes?
What is the plan for former immigrants, now EU citizens once they have freedom of movement within Europe, where are they most likely to migrate to?​

And finally, why is it so difficult to ask these legitimate questions without being called a racist or a 'phobe' or smeared in some other ridiculous way?

I won't bother to ask monetary questions related to immigration, as I'll assume the answers will be too obsfucated to have any element of truth about them, given the £380m/£600m starting now or in 2021/2022/2023 bullsh!t that has just appeared today

 

[counter_violent]

You are right here SC, Magic Mike has found the Magic Tree

This money give away is more to do with bad publicity and Tories losing the next elections on news that pensioners are passing away on hospital corridors waiting to be seen on trollies.

Not Brexit related at all :!::!::!::!::!:


Immigration cap on some areas ie essentially medical staff, usually intakes from non-EU countries by far. So small significance on EU free movement.

Health tourism has nothing to do with Brexit either. In fact health support far better in EU. If you guys believe Europeans are simply coming over here for treatment you are mistaken.

Foreign Aid budget on the whole goes to Commonwealth, non-EU countries. I'd be interested to know to which EU countries EU gives foreign aid to if any? Another non-Brexit point.

Brexit crowds analytical ability leaves much to be desired. Can be categorised in two points;

1. hope and glory and
2. silver bullet

Last few Brexit bloggs clearly in the silver bullet camp.



Laughable. It really is. JRM only interested in his hedge fund and tax havens coz that's all he knows. You chaps are talking about the very regulations that protect your good selves. He will then pay probably no tax at all and make even more money.



Question for you Brexiteers, so where is the training budget for new nurses and doctors so we don't have to import the skills?

Nursing degree applications slump after NHS bursaries abolished

Bunch of clowns governing UK. If clowns weren't enough we have Brexiteers trolling around their heels too.



UK needs elections pronto.

Yes good question. Where is the budget and more importantly, where is the policy from our government to train our own people up, not just in healthcare but across the board where we have skills shortages.

Brexit was about sending the message to the establishment that we find their policy solutions unacceptable. Opening the door to all and sundry (the easy option) in all areas, including unskilled workers, which has the effect of wage compression for all, is totally unacceptable. There is a long history of this type of suppression, which is why we are where we are today.

 

[barjon]

I was't aware I was being vituperative towards remainers, my expression of opinion is not harsh, intolerant or viciously abusive!

My opinion appears to agree with your view. The current state of politics is such that any criticism of immigration policies leads to a shut down of debate with slurs and smears ensuing, usually by the left wing, which tend to be remainers and by the media, which tend to be the establishment mouthpieces, regardless of the position of the person hoping to debate immigration (either left, right or centrist).

I would agree with your view that immigration has been an issue since the 50's, we've seen ignorance and racism continue to this day, although the overt expression of ignorance and racism has drastically reduced because of the shutdown of debate by successive governments, the introduction of political correctness, the invention of 'hate crimes', the right not to be insulted, the reduction of free speech on social media and the invention of words such as 'Islamophobia', none of which is applied equally by the state or the instruments of state.

There is now no way of telling if the same intolerance exists as it did in the 50's and if it continues to the same extent today. If people have a legitimate right to express their views in non-racist, non-violent ways, then they aren't given a chance. My view is that remainers promote this, just as you see the reluctance to discuss immigration in the context of Brexit, they shutdown the debate often with the 'racist' term attached to it, de-platforming speakers in universities or in hustings where democracy should be taking precedence.

Interesting times to see how this will work out, interesting to see that the establishment think they can quell the thoughts of people using legislation and the media, interesting to see that from the 50's the oppression was of the left by the establishment and how that has now turned into oppression of anyone by the left and the establishment.

It's almost as if the left has taken over the establishment, regardless of which government is in power and is using the rule of law, the judiciary, the police, the intelligence agencies and the institutions to crackdown on 'free speech' to suppress the 'people'.

The role Brexit has played is to highlight the divisions that exist, the polarisation already existed, but since the debate over Europe has opened up somewhat since, people now feel the need to express themselves more. In response, the government cracks down

Britain is/has been the most tolerant country in the world, for a long time, especially towards minorities, we have traditionally allowed anyone and everyone to take their place in terms of equality, we had been doing very well compared to other countries, it has been a struggle, many people have died along the way, there is now a risk of that being overturned because governments won't allow reasoned debate about subjects they deem to be politically correct.

I didn’t mean to single you out, sc, although I do take exception to being “the reason the country finds itself in the mess in the first place”.

I do wonder who this ephemeral “establishment” is. It seems to me that all sides have become intolerant, unwilling to debate and keen to muzzle views other than their own. Even university students force the withdrawal of speakers whose views they don’t like. Free speech, pah!!

 

[Signalcalc]

Have to bring Tommy Robinson back into the debate at this point. He is currently back in prison on some trumped up justification, because he dared to report on the trial of grooming gangs.

It's no secret that TR has been smeared since EDL days, despite his current and (most likely good intentioned) starting position. The state have attempted to silence him at every turn, for good reason, what he says resonates with millions of people.

He is a Brexit in his own right in terms of dividing the population, I dare say there would be a close 50/50 split regarding Islam.

The trouble is that if justice is to be applied, then it should be seen to be applied equally, if the state wants to see that it is not applied equally then the result is what you've seen (if you watch anything other than MSM) in the last couple of weeks or so.

What I find fascinating is the global movement that TR has sparked, no longer is the issue of Islam domestic, it really has become global. Take the Americans, they have always looked to the UK as a bastion of democracy and free speech, they have been watching what is happening here and in Europe with great interest, they see what happens here as happening in the USA. I think there is a genuine fear that if democracy and the rule of law is lost here, then there is a possibility of civil outbreak in the USA, with guns n all, that could get nasty. At least we only have knives, mopeds and acid to deal with here.

Globalists need to tread carefully there is a movement on the rise that in 20 years could be influencing the direction we are headed, they either play the democratic line or lose control, either way they lose, but one route has a bigger loss for us all then the (democratic) route.

Take away the voice of the people.........Brexit

 

[Signalcalc]

I didn’t mean to single you out, sc, although I do take exception to being “the reason the country finds itself in the mess in the first place”.

Fair enough

I do wonder who this ephemeral “establishment” is. It seems to me that all sides have become intolerant, unwilling to debate and keen to muzzle views other than their own. Even university students force the withdrawal of speakers whose views they don’t like. Free speech, pah!!

I don't think anyone has invented the term for the Globalist, State, Institutional, Establishment type collective yet, so I just revert to whatever looks readable. I think all these terms are interchangeable and refer to the common theme, with some being specific where needed. And I agree it crosses all politics but appears to have been born from the late 60's hippy type movement (left) to morph across institutions and the state. I believe the Common Purpose program is part of it, to embed it's leaders in the hierarchies of the UK state at least, I'm not sure what it is called in other Westernised countries which all seem to have gone down similar routes.

When our educational institutions are teaching people about 'safe spaces' and shutting down free speech, there is only one way it's headed for the future, more Orwell !

 

[counter_violent]

It's no secret that TR has been smeared since EDL days, despite his current and (most likely good intentioned) starting position. The state have attempted to silence him at every turn, for good reason, what he says resonates with millions of people.

He is a Brexit in his own right in terms of dividing the population, I dare say there would be a close 50/50 split regarding Islam.

The trouble is that if justice is to be applied, then it should be seen to be applied equally, if the state wants to see that it is not applied equally then the result is what you've seen (if you watch anything other than MSM) in the last couple of weeks or so.

What I find fascinating is the global movement that TR has sparked, no longer is the issue of Islam domestic, it really has become global. Take the Americans, they have always looked to the UK as a bastion of democracy and free speech, they have been watching what is happening here and in Europe with great interest, they see what happens here as happening in the USA. I think there is a genuine fear that if democracy and the rule of law is lost here, then there is a possibility of civil outbreak in the USA, with guns n all, that could get nasty. At least we only have knives, mopeds and acid to deal with here.

Globalists need to tread carefully there is a movement on the rise that in 20 years could be influencing the direction we are headed, they either play the democratic line or lose control, either way they lose, but one route has a bigger loss for us all then the (democratic) route.

Take away the voice of the people.........Brexit

If ever proof were needed that multi culturalism doesn't work, then the US is right up there.

Keep your eye on Canada....another powder keg looking for a spark!

UK
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...ism-has-left-Britain-with-a-toxic-legacy.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/9071941/Mr-Honeyfords-lesson.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/educati...leading-parallel-lives-to-the-mainstream.html

 

[Signalcalc]

If ever proof were needed that multi culturalism doesn't work, then the US is right up there.

It looks like the Democrats (being the left) have furthered the divide by encouraging the non-white populations to continue playing the victim cards for their own political gains, with the white man oppressive despite black-on-black crime. The left do it in much more subtle ways in the UK using the state, although that has been changing with the rise of militant left wing and antifa (fascists), street violence is rising. In the US you see black voices now emerging encouraging their own people to speak up against the left and for themselves rather than to accept the victim narrative.

Keep your eye on Canada....another powder keg looking for a spark!

Trudeau's seen to that!

Also Sweden in September, multiculturism at work again.

UK
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...ism-has-left-Britain-with-a-toxic-legacy.html

The phenomena that multiculturalism no longer works is well known, what is concerning is that advocates of multiculturalism fail to admit mistakes and seek to stop anyone discussing it, typical of totalitarian politicians.

 

[Signalcalc]

UK
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...ism-has-left-Britain-with-a-toxic-legacy.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/9071941/Mr-Honeyfords-lesson.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/educati...leading-parallel-lives-to-the-mainstream.html

Frightening that despite reports like these 4-6 years ago, that things have only got worse! I wonder if the MSM is even able to produce reports like this in todays climate?

And of course Honeyford's observations only reflect what the common man has been experiencing for decades, something that metropolitan elites refuse to acknowledge for some reason.

 

[Atilla]

In that case, I will classify you as one of the majority of Remainers that does not want to discuss real Brexit issues as real people see them - a typical Remainer you are and one of the reasons the country finds itself in this mess in the first place.

For example, if the question of immigration had been discussed openly in the years preceding the referendum, if the immigration policies of the EU and of successive Labour and Tory govts had been transparent and openly discussed, there may have been a immigration compromise reached with 'the people'.

In addition, if Cameron had secured some compromises with the intransigent EU, especially over immigration and if Merkel hadn't opened borders in 2015 onwards, if UKIP hadn't needed to use immigration as one of their central policies, then I doubt there would be a 52/48 split in favour of leaving the EU.

But what happened was a miscalculation by the Remainer establishment over the strength of feeling related to immigration, it has not gone away, to ignore it as one of the central Brexit reasons is to just invite further trouble.

I know your interest is mostly in Trade, I have no problem with that, but to offer nothing but ignorance towards the issue of immigration is to just be burying one's head in the sand.

I doubt the issue of Sovereignty would have favoured Brexit in the referendum result had the issue of immigration been tackled correctly.

You see how this IS related to Brexit and how the EU have shot themselves in the foot, you also see the opposition to Islam growing which is also related to immigration and is tied to Brexit, more trouble ahead.

The problem will continue to get worse for as long as the Establishment and Remainers pretend a problem doesn't exist and continue to promote open borders and lack of border control.

'The People' see it differently.

SC matey, I'm happy to discuss free movement of people within EU borders and I doubt that's British peoples true gripe.

It is the cheap unskilled labour pouring in from outside. Even Romanian numbers pales into insignificance.

So you really need to get your facts straight and where you stand.

If you think that is the reason why UK is in this mess and not for productivity, **** poor design in consumer products or unable to compete on manufactured products than I would say your types are the key reason why Britain hasn't found a solution for her disease since the decline of the Empire started back post Crystal Palace exhibition hosted by Prince Albert.

You really need to get out and read more my son.

I am not a typical remainer. There is nothing typical about me. I am freaking unique mate. You have no idea just how unique I am.

Obviously UK problemo much bigger than I may have envisaged if Brexiteers think we haven't discussed migration sufficiently and thus we are in this pile of pooh we find our selves in. That really should go in the jokes section.



I guess less said about the UK dropping out of the Galileo Project the better with the likes of you.

 

[Atilla]

She will lose power for the very same reasons that the UK voted for Brexit. The majority of the voting public, both here and elsewhere, have decided that enough is enough as far as being railroaded down policy routes that they find unacceptable. This applies the world over as evidenced by shifting trends. It's not difficult to understand. The fact that the establishment needs to catch up and get a grip is why Brexiters feel compelled to keep the pressure on.

We knew exactly what we voted for unlike the remoaners who have failed to satisfactorily answer the questions posed to them.

As Barjon reminds us at every opportunity, "elections are usually lost not won", so the establishment have failed to convince us that we were on the right path. The same can be said of the referendum result.

The difficulty you are having with such results is because everything that Brexiters predicted in the build up to the vote is actually coming true.

NO no no! Not for free movement of people within EU but for allowing refugees an open door.

What is wrong with you Brexiteers who can't seem to distinguish a basic point?

If you repeat something a 100 times does it become a fact for you? :whistling I shouldn't ask rhetorical questions as I'm likely to get an answer I'm not expecting

 

[Atilla]

If ever proof were needed that multi culturalism doesn't work, then the US is right up there.

Keep your eye on Canada....another powder keg looking for a spark!

UK
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uk...ism-has-left-Britain-with-a-toxic-legacy.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/9071941/Mr-Honeyfords-lesson.html

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/educati...leading-parallel-lives-to-the-mainstream.html

More tosh.

Multiculturalism has nothing to do with Brexit. :!:

National issue. Deal with it any way you want.


You puppies are sooo deluded. I guess you have nothing else to shout about. Self confirmation bias rules supreme.

Brexiteers are merging on OCD sysndrome... :whistling

 

[Signalcalc]

SC matey, I'm happy to discuss free movement of people within EU borders and I doubt that's British peoples true gripe.

It is the cheap unskilled labour pouring in from outside. Even Romanian numbers pales into insignificance.

So you really need to get your facts straight and where you stand.

If you think that is the reason why UK is in this mess and not for productivity, **** poor design in consumer products or unable to compete on manufactured products than I would say your types are the key reason why Britain hasn't found a solution for her disease since the decline of the Empire started back post Crystal Palace exhibition hosted by Prince Albert.

You really need to get out and read more my son.

It looks like you need to read my posts a little more closely, to sum up, one of the main reasons for Brexit is as a result of uncontrolled migration as perceived by the Brexit voter, a large part of which can be attributed to remainers and the establishment not wanting to discuss immigration and ignoring those voters legitimate concerns. It's as much to do with identity, cultural differences, lack of integration, division and multiculturalism as much as stealing low paid jobs. Nothing to do with manufacturing, consumer products or any other trade twaddle.

Obviously UK problemo much bigger than I may have envisaged if Brexiteers think we haven't discussed migration sufficiently and thus we are in this pile of pooh we find our selves in. That really should go in the jokes section.

You are totally missing the point here, it's precisely because of the lack of discussion and the willingness to shut down debate and smear those with legitimate concerns, before, during and following the referendum that it is a major unresolved issue.

I guess less said about the UK dropping out of the Galileo Project the better with the likes of you.

I've already stated that this is BS concocted by the EU to make us think we need them, how are the EU going to complete UK military unification with the EU without Galileo? They can't is the answer. The only way a unified military will be able to function is by extending the services of Galileo to the UK military otherwise their grand military project won't work.

 

[Signalcalc]

NO no no! Not for free movement of people within EU but for allowing refugees an open door.

It looks like you are still misunderstanding the definition of a refugee

 

[Signalcalc]

More tosh.

Multiculturalism has nothing to do with Brexit. :!:

National issue. Deal with it any way you want.


You puppies are sooo deluded. I guess you have nothing else to shout about. Self confirmation bias rules supreme.

Brexiteers are merging on OCD sysndrome... :whistling

There's no better example than a bitter remainer for smears, slurs and shutting down debate than this ^^^^

Why not put forward some reasoned discussion for a change?

 

[Atilla]

You really are a one trick pony. Let's remove the you as it isn't about us, it is about the country but look where UKIP are now? Can you see them in the UK?

Great big issue and suddenly pmmmphhh! Gone!

Where is Cameron? Pmmmmpppppphhhhhhhhh! His gone too!

Cultural identity and sovereignty. Yep I share your pains here as well. But need to look at the bigger picture.

If Brexit materialises and greater Commonwealth political interaction and unity is pursued by UK you going to feel a greater cultural identity crises than what ever you feeling now.

Tired of talking migrants with you lot. Think we've made our points.

 

[counter_violent]

You really are a one trick pony. Let's remove the you as it isn't about us, it is about the country but look where UKIP are now? Can you see them in the UK?

Great big issue and suddenly pmmmphhh! Gone!

Where is Cameron? Pmmmmpppppphhhhhhhhh! His gone too!

Cultural identity and sovereignty. Yep I share your pains here as well. But need to look at the bigger picture.

If Brexit materialises and greater Commonwealth political interaction and unity is pursued by UK you going to feel a greater cultural identity crises than what ever you feeling now.

Tired of talking migrants with you lot. Think we've made our points.

Unbelievable.

The point is that "the commonwealth" already grew up with British laws, administrations, customs and values. They already know and understand UK culture, unlike the Europeans who also had their own versions of empire. So for any who do come over, they will have no difficulty in assimilating.

Have you stopped to consider for just one second the reasons why we never fully signed up to the EU project?

No Johnny foreigners ever going to tell us what to do.

 

[timsk]

. . .You puppies are sooo deluded. I guess you have nothing else to shout about. Self confirmation bias rules supreme.

Brexiteers are merging on OCD sysndrome... :whistling

There's no better example than a bitter remainer for smears, slurs and shutting down debate than this ^^^^

Why not put forward some reasoned discussion for a change?

Atilla,
Sig' is absolutely spot on in what the says. If you have to resort to cheap shots then you've lost the argument and do a great disservice to fellow remainers who must drop their heads in despair when they read posts like this. You're gifting the debate to Brexiteers and that's a shame as all that subscribers to the thread perceive is you going off on one of your rants and lose sight of the often valid point(s) that you may be making. Why you persist in submitting posts like this is a mystery to me.

Tim.