Brexit and the Consequences

[barjon]

It is simply deluded self confirming bias to pointing at EU-external global population and migration issues as some Brexit justifying highlights


A large part of the Brexit platform was built on just the immigration problem.
The millions that have come to Europe and the UK are a reality and definately no delusion.
You may not have been replaced at work by cheaper immigrant labour but many have. The bosses love it. They can build more houses and labour is cheaper.

Yes, it was. And it was “free movement” that was said to be to blame and leaving would stop it. Ho, ho

 

[cantagril]

Yes, it was. And it was “free movement” that was said to be to blame and leaving would stop it. Ho, ho

Tsk tsk Jon, such schadenfreude! ....ooops, sorry nasty foreign migrant words are now being stooped at the border and sent back to their countries of origin...perhaps this one's a genuine refugee?

 

[Pat494]

Personally I would have allowed genuine refugees sanctuary BUT on the written and accepted understanding that they would have to go home as soon as the situation there is peaceful enough.

 

[Signalcalc]

It looks like Attila only has to look at the reaction on this thread to see how immigration is related to Brexit.

There is little point in burying one's head in the sand over this issue (this is exactly what politicians have been doing and why there is a populist uprising among EU members), better to discuss and deal with the issue before it becomes a far worse issue (unless it is already too late).

Labour will not attribute even part of the NHS, housing and other crisis issues to immigration, they have an unholy alliance with Islamists, Labour relying on migration for voters, similarly with the other left leaning parties, all useful idiots.

The Tories are burying their heads in the sand and finding ways of dealing with secondary issues, rather than the primary issues, it's not working very well, they are clueless

Unless politicians face up to these challenges, then unrest amongst the voting populations will cause change, this is what we have seen with Brexit alongside other EU nations, politicians are the one's so blind they will not see, the rest of us just speculate (and vote).

 

[tomorton]

The EU being open to immigration should not be a surprise to anyone, it totally complements their political aims and makes use of global economics.

Politically -

if the EU government opens the borders to a member country, rather than the national government, this disempowers the national government in the eyes of its indigenous population and binds the incoming population's loyalty to Europe rather than the host nation

it undermines the potential future voter support for nationalist parties (and the EU idea was born out of a reaction against Nazism)

third world immigrant populations have higher birth rates, increasing the voter pool biased towards the EU

Economically -

western countries with larger populations have stronger GDP's: if you rank the EU founder states by population and by GDP, its nearly the same sequence

immigrant populations tend to be a younger demographic, providing a injection of working age population who will do the work and pay the taxes to support the ageing and retiring indigenous population

if immigration occurs from other western countries, the EU is depriving those nations of a prime natural resource while increasing its own, so a bonus in economic terms.

With all these factors behind it, the EU won't change on this.

 

[Splitlink]

Did any of you guys listen to BBC 4 news at 1400? There is an item about the car industry that might interest.

 

[Atilla]

It looks like Attila only has to look at the reaction on this thread to see how immigration is related to Brexit.

There is little point in burying one's head in the sand over this issue (this is exactly what politicians have been doing and why there is a populist uprising among EU members), better to discuss and deal with the issue before it becomes a far worse issue (unless it is already too late).

Labour will not attribute even part of the NHS, housing and other crisis issues to immigration, they have an unholy alliance with Islamists, Labour relying on migration for voters, similarly with the other left leaning parties, all useful idiots.

The Tories are burying their heads in the sand and finding ways of dealing with secondary issues, rather than the primary issues, it's not working very well, they are clueless

Unless politicians face up to these challenges, then unrest amongst the voting populations will cause change, this is what we have seen with Brexit alongside other EU nations, politicians are the one's so blind they will not see, the rest of us just speculate (and vote).

Unless you diagnose correctly the contributory factors your medicine will not heal but most probability be counter productive.

Brexiteers made it an issue yes but as before UKIP queues of refugees and national acceptance is not a Brexit issue. It is one of custom borders and domestic policy as to how many we take in.

NHS issue related to ageing population. 1m more pensioners over 75. Increase in Dementia and Alzheimer.

Housing crises is due to poor planning and regulations. More people living in single families with increases in divorce. Not to mention elderly living longer. Council houses sold off with an increase in population.

Police and crime is probably due to affluence and increased acceptance of drugs. Should be liberalised and sold by chemists imo.


Once again this whole Brexit fiasco put in simple lay man terms is to do with...

Hope and Glory

&

Silver Bullet​

Those two I feel is what politicians keep bragging about. All the whaffles can be attributed to one or the other. You can dress it up however you like.

 

[Atilla]

The EU being open to immigration should not be a surprise to anyone, it totally complements their political aims and makes use of global economics.

Politically -

if the EU government opens the borders to a member country, rather than the national government, this disempowers the national government in the eyes of its indigenous population and binds the incoming population's loyalty to Europe rather than the host nation

it undermines the potential future voter support for nationalist parties (and the EU idea was born out of a reaction against Nazism)

third world immigrant populations have higher birth rates, increasing the voter pool biased towards the EU

Economically -

western countries with larger populations have stronger GDP's: if you rank the EU founder states by population and by GDP, its nearly the same sequence

immigrant populations tend to be a younger demographic, providing a injection of working age population who will do the work and pay the taxes to support the ageing and retiring indigenous population

if immigration occurs from other western countries, the EU is depriving those nations of a prime natural resource while increasing its own, so a bonus in economic terms.

With all these factors behind it, the EU won't change on this.

I agree with your analysis and much of what you say here but the political aim of EU part. It is not a political aim to import migrants. It may be a by product, an unexpected outcome but not an intentional political object.

EU does not have a hidden secret agenda. It is transparent and communicates policy. eg: Having a joint army.

It may be desirable but that's another story. To shore up declining birth rates and improve tax burden on impending pension liabilities.

Two additional key piece of analysis to your excellent considerations are Multinationals or what is now termed Globalisation. Past wage increases leading to inflationary pressures were key issue to many EU countries and the UK as you probably know.

Also, export of jobs as production moves to countries with low cost of labour. Hence, multinational retains technology gap whilst benefiting from cheap labour and land and in many cases tax brakes from host country.

Western response has been to import cheap labour. Choice is clear. As Trump likes to bark on about it; export jobs or import migrants.

Where is the greater national interest?

Once again Trump's policies will only lead to detriment of US as it continues to lose market share to other countries who have cheaper cost of production. US will not be able to compete.

EU implements protection yes whilst maintaining advantages of a common market. It is a difficult fine balance, which it successfully administers admirably well imho.

 

[tomorton]

I agree with your analysis and much of what you say here but the political aim of EU part. It is not a political aim to import migrants. It may be a by product, an unexpected outcome but not an intentional political object.

EU does not have a hidden secret agenda.

The EU is a political movement, not an economic co-op. It does indeed not have a secret agenda - its agenda is public, and the aim is political unification of Europe into one state. This is what the founders always intended and repeatedly clearly said so. Their successors have reiterated this ever since. But national politicians and media have conveniently put this in the background. If anyone has a secret agenda, it is the national governments in Europe who play down the political union and emphasise the economic benefits.

But, even assuming there's no political objective behind an open-doors immigration policy, the economic advantages look good. So why would we fight it when if we win the closed borders game, we sacrifice our own economic well-being?

 

[Signalcalc]

So why would we fight it when if we win the closed borders game, we sacrifice our own economic well-being?

Because uncontrolled mass migration brings cultural and societal changes that host nations' indigenous populations reject. The nature of immigration has changed over the last 20 years, from migrants that wanted to work hard, integrate into the host country and work for the good of the host society. All you see now are migrants that do not want to integrate, do not want to work, want the benefits, increase crime levels and have no intention of becoming part of their host societies. These facts are borne out by the opposition that is seen amongst the voting citizens of Europe, it is not a mirage.

Those citizens do not care a jot for the economic benefit arguments put forward by the Globalist leaders, all trust has been lost in the political class of the European Union, economics are a side show (although in countries such as Greece and Italy it is high on the agenda), economic arguments are not believed. The priorities of the citizens is an anti-migrant one.

So we have a political class that bases arguments on economic grounds that the citizen class does not believe and a citizen class that bases arguments on cultural and society arguments that the political class ignore. The question is who will win, it appears the political class are on the back foot and have no intention of changing, I wonder where this will end up.

I understand that you guys naturally like to talk trade and economics here, but to do so is to ignore the real issues.

If Theresa May goes down the political trade route over Brexit, there will be hell to pay for the Tories at the next general election in 2021, this will let Labour into power with their currently extreme left wing ideology, a nightmare scenario for the UK.

 

[tomorton]

Because uncontrolled mass migration brings cultural and societal changes that host nations' indigenous populations reject. The nature of immigration has changed over the last 20 years, from migrants that wanted to work hard, integrate into the host country and work for the good of the host society. All you see now are migrants that do not want to integrate, do not want to work, want the benefits, increase crime levels and have no intention of becoming part of their host societies. These facts are borne out by the opposition that is seen amongst the voting citizens of Europe, it is not a mirage.

Those citizens do not care a jot for the economic benefit arguments put forward by the Globalist leaders, all trust has been lost in the political class of the European Union, economics are a side show (although in countries such as Greece and Italy it is high on the agenda), economic arguments are not believed. The priorities of the citizens is an anti-migrant one.

So we have a political class that bases arguments on economic grounds that the citizen class does not believe and a citizen class that bases arguments on cultural and society arguments that the political class ignore. The question is who will win, it appears the political class are on the back foot and have no intention of changing, I wonder where this will end up.

I understand that you guys naturally like to talk trade and economics here, but to do so is to ignore the real issues.

If Theresa May goes down the political trade route over Brexit, there will be hell to pay for the Tories at the next general election in 2021, this will let Labour into power with their currently extreme left wing ideology, a nightmare scenario for the UK.

The EU united Europe movement don't care about changes to national societies and cultures brought about by immigration, they want to see the abolition of national states and national identities anyway. From their point of view, decay of language and cultural differences between European nation states is a help towards their objective, and importing masses of migrants is a short-cut to this.

 

[counter_violent]

The EU united Europe movement don't care about changes to national societies and cultures brought about by immigration, they want to see the abolition of national states and national identities anyway. From their point of view, decay of language and cultural differences between European nation states is a help towards their objective, and importing masses of migrants is a short-cut to this.

The more intransigent the EU position, the quicker it will all fall apart. They absolutely will not win through, especially in the UK.

 

[Signalcalc]

The EU united Europe movement don't care about changes to national societies and cultures brought about by immigration, they want to see the abolition of national states and national identities anyway. From their point of view, decay of language and cultural differences between European nation states is a help towards their objective, and importing masses of migrants is a short-cut to this.

The problem is that the narrative proposed by Attila (in the context of mass migration):

I agree with your analysis and much of what you say here but the political aim of EU part. It is not a political aim to import migrants. It may be a by product, an unexpected outcome but not an intentional political object.

EU does not have a hidden secret agenda. It is transparent and communicates policy. eg: Having a joint army.

It may be desirable but that's another story. To shore up declining birth rates and improve tax burden on impending pension liabilities.

does not fit your narrative. Whilst I'm more inclined to believe that your narrative has more merit, it shows how disparate the views are on the matter.

Maybe the EU are just as clueless as everyone else?

 

[cantagril]

Maybe the EU are just as clueless as everyone else?

:

Yep.

Does it help to present the situation in either the UK or the EU as binary?

Nope.

Will the EU be better off without the UK?

Erm...

Will the UK be better off without the EU?

.....Mmm

Anyone who thinks that the perception of the problems of mass migration are not as important as the problems themselves should migrate somewhere....maybe Cloud Cuckoo Land; I hear the climate is quite balmy (though possibly that's written with an R) the economy is rosy and the streets are not paved with migrants.

Remember, in the real world, it's a 3M problem:

It's Mass Migration Mate! - for which the solution is Managed Migration Moron!

That is the direction we're all going in and whether the UK leaves the EU or not doesn't affect that process.

Hasta.

 

[Pat494]

:

Yep.

Does it help to present the situation in either the UK or the EU as binary?

Nope.

Will the EU be better off without the UK?

Erm...

Will the UK be better off without the EU?

.....Mmm

Anyone who thinks that the perception of the problems of mass migration are not as important as the problems themselves should migrate somewhere....maybe Cloud Cuckoo Land; I hear the climate is quite balmy (though possibly that's written with an R) the economy is rosy and the streets are not paved with migrants.

Remember, in the real world, it's a 3M problem:

It's Mass Migration Mate! - for which the solution is Managed Migration Moron!

That is the direction we're all going in and whether the UK leaves the EU or not doesn't affect that process.

Hasta.

Rubbish

The leaders of countries must make the often hard decision whether to allow it or not as befits that country. Their first obligation is to the country that has elected them. to do their best for that country. Too much immigration can overwhelm the host nation and its people. Think of lifeboats analogy.

Third world countries have already had huge benefits from developed countries and should get tough internally to control over population. Not just shedding the surplus abroad.

 

[cantagril]

Rubbish

You're too kind sir!

The leaders of countries must make the often hard decision whether to allow it or not as befits that country. Their first obligation is to the country that has elected them. to do their best for that country. Too much immigration can overwhelm the host nation and its people. Think of lifeboats analogy.

What part of MANAGED MIGRATION MORON is difficult? Or do you really intend to stick with binary and want to just close all the borders????

Third world countries have already had huge benefits from developed countries and should get tough internally to control over population. Not just shedding the surplus abroad.

Your last point about internal population control is dead on. The UK is a small island and whilst overt population management is currently political suicide the way things are going it won't be so in another few years. As the EU evolves we might find ourselves lagging behind in those stakes

 

[Pat494]

Your last point about internal population control is dead on. The UK is a small island and whilst overt population management is currently political suicide the way things are going it won't be so in another few years. As the EU evolves we might find ourselves lagging behind in those stakes

I live in the West Country and the amount of building new estates is bad. The infra structure is crumbling and the beautiful countryside is looking like an urban bombsite.
Quality of life is more important imho than the never ending grubbing for money.Hearing that Mrs Poodle has wasted more taxpayer's money on new stealth jet fighters comes as no surprise. She might get the potholes filled first. Britain is a trading nation not just the USA's catspaw.

 

[barjon]

I live in the West Country and the amount of building new estates is bad. The infra structure is crumbling and the beautiful countryside is looking like an urban bombsite.
Quality of life is more important imho than the never ending grubbing for money.Hearing that Mrs Poodle has wasted more taxpayer's money on new stealth jet fighters comes as no surprise. She might get the potholes filled first. Britain is a trading nation not just the USA's catspaw.

Agree with that and that we are over-populated. I don’t, however, think this is down to our membership of the EU, nor do I think it will be solved by our leaving. It was clearly a trump card for the brexiteers to play, albeit a false one.

 

[Pat494]

Agree with that and that we are over-populated. I don’t, however, think this is down to our membership of the EU, nor do I think it will be solved by our leaving. It was clearly a trump card for the brexiteers to play, albeit a false one.

Once we out from under Fuhrer Merkel's wing we can do what we like again. Sooner the better.
She suffers from German collective guilt of starting 2 World Wars and the deaths of millions of people. Perhaps she is trying to re-populate Europe to make up for it.
The traditional British ideas of fair play, self determination and justice are far better for the people to live with than under directives of autocrats.


:clap:

 

[mike.]

It’s good to see David Davis show some backbone, Standing up to TM . I really hope he gets his way and not forced to resign..I have a bad feeling that TM is secretly trying to impose a soft Brexit to keep her party remainers happy...It won’t end well.