Brexit and the Consequences

[timsk]

You are assuming he wouldn't have learnt either, much like your good self!

No Atilla, the polar opposite I'm afraid.
If you've not yet done so, check out the video c_v posted above, as it makes the connection between Germany and WW2 with the EU as it is today. I'm surprised how so many remainers fail to see the parallels between the two and why they want to support a regime not dissimilar to the one that my parents and grand parents risked their lives to fight against. Makes no sense to me whatsoever. Look at it another way. . .

Suppose Theresa May called another referendum, only this time the decision is whether or not to keep our domestic UK political system as it is, or to do away with the House of Commons completely and let the House of Lords run the show. What do you think the result of that referendum would be? It's a no brainer: 99% would vote in favour of the status quo and only 1% would vote in favour of the House of Lords. After all, who in their right mind would want to be governed by people they didn't elect, who are appointed (often for spurious reasons) by other people they also didn't elect, are largely unaccountable and can only be removed if found guilty of child sex abuse? Yet, this is pretty much what the remain camp have done with the EU. As our friends across the pond would say: 'go figure'!
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

No Atilla, the polar opposite I'm afraid.
If you've not yet done so, check out the video c_v posted above, as it makes the connection between Germany and WW2 with the EU as it is today. I'm surprised how so many remainers fail to see the parallels between the two and why they want to support a regime not dissimilar to the one that my parents and grand parents risked their lives to fight against. Makes no sense to me whatsoever. Look at it another way. . .

Suppose Theresa May called another referendum, only this time the decision is whether or not to keep our domestic UK political system as it is, or to do away with the House of Commons completely and let the House of Lords run the show. What do you think the result of that referendum would be? It's a no brainer: 99% would vote in favour of the status quo and only 1% would vote in favour of the House of Lords. After all, who in their right mind would want to be governed by people they didn't elect, who are appointed (often for spurious reasons) by other people they also didn't elect, are largely unaccountable and can only be removed if found guilty of child sex abuse? Yet, this is pretty much what the remain camp have done with the EU. As our friends across the pond would say: 'go figure'!
Tim.

British history and rise of the industrial revolution is primarily based on being an Island having a bias towards a strong naval advantage, ruling the waves.

Sadly, the era of gun ship diplomacy and colonialisation is over.

We are in a new era of trade pacts and bilateral agreements. Business and commerce reduces war. Centuries of war culminated in two World Wars all within one lifetime and consuming millions of lives.

So for you and others to keep banging that old drum is indeed CLEAR indication of barking back to the past not having learnt from history.

Now I do appreciate one can either say it's happened before and it will happen again or one can say we have learnt from the past and times have changed.


One can either work in a cooperative environment or one of individual entity. US still favours gun ship diplomacy, devide and rule. Implement puppet regimes and change the playing field to their advantage. I think we have all seen this and still do. UK tries to keep up with the US but increasingly to our cost as we can see with policies in the ME.

So mentioning WW2 and Germany, without mentioning the UK and protection of her colonies is not fair cop imo.

Soft power over gun ship diplomacy gets my vote. Germany is doing very well. In fact some people attribute this to years of not having to divert national spending on defence. Time will tell I'm sure. Hopefully, not in my life time

 

[Splitlink]

British history and rise of the industrial revolution is primarily based on being an Island having a bias towards a strong naval advantage, ruling the waves.

Sadly, the era of gun ship diplomacy and colonialisation is over.

We are in a new era of trade pacts and bilateral agreements. Business and commerce reduces war. Centuries of war culminated in two World Wars all within one lifetime and consuming millions of lives.

So for you and others to keep banging that old drum is indeed CLEAR indication of barking back to the past not having learnt from history.

Now I do appreciate one can either say it's happened before and it will happen again or one can say we have learnt from the past and times have changed.


One can either work in a cooperative environment or one of individual entity. US still favours gun ship diplomacy, devide and rule. Implement puppet regimes and change the playing field to their advantage. I think we have all seen this and still do. UK tries to keep up with the US but increasingly to our cost as we can see with policies in the ME.

So mentioning WW2 and Germany, without mentioning the UK and protection of her colonies is not fair cop imo.

Soft power over gun ship diplomacy gets my vote. Germany is doing very well. In fact some people attribute this to years of not having to divert national spending on defence. Time will tell I'm sure. Hopefully, not in my life time

A few weeks ago, I had a chuckle over the UK media proudly trumpeting "UK to send a gunship to the Mediterranean",so gunship mentality is, still, alive and kicking in the UK.

As far as Tim's post is concerned, I see little parallel between WWII Germany and now, except that Germany is the motor of Europe. My question is, Who can blame them for that and whose fault is it?

So, the Brexiters want to pick their own MP's. The man in the street will have as much say in the running of the UK as my aunt's cat, you can take that from me! But, still, it seems as if 52% is running the show over the other 48%, which has, always, seemed too close to me. That, I believe, is what is worrying the Brexiters. So be it but, for Heaven's sake leave the Europeans alone to get on with their own affairs. There is something very insecure to me about the constant picking of Europe.

I am sure that the UK can sort itself out in the future. I have no doubt about that, at all but, so can we. There is a hell of a lot that needs doing in Europe. it is nowhere near perfect but it will get done. Otherwise it will start to break up, what else can we do?

What you have to do is get yourselves out as quickly as possible. So far, Art.50 has not been signed, yet, although I have heard that you might get around to it by February.

 

[timsk]

. . . As far as Tim's post is concerned, I see little parallel between WWII Germany and now, except that Germany is the motor of Europe. My question is, Who can blame them for that and whose fault is it? . . .

Hi Split',
Check out the video c_v posted - as it makes clear the link between Germany and WW2 with the EU as it is today.

Regarding your question, I don't blame Germany for being in the position she's in today - it is what it is. However, I think everyone on all sides of the Brexit debate will agree that Germany is the linchpin that's critical to it's success and that, without her, the whole thing will start to unravel pretty quickly. Were the pin to break, leaving aside whether or not one thinks that would be a good thing or a bad thing - logic suggests it will happen sooner or later. I admit I'm no economist, but I'll wager that there's no country in the world whose economy has gone from strength to strength ad infinitum. It's only a question of time before Germany hits hard times and, when that happens, the ripples will be felt right across the EU. Going back to your merchant seaman days, would you want to go to sea in a ship knowing that it only had one really powerful engine and, if it packed up, the ship wouldn't get very far on a few Honda 50cc outboards? Okay, that's a bit of an extreme caricature of the EU but, in broad terms, that's pretty much how I view it.
Tim.

 

[Splitlink]

Hi Split',
Check out the video c_v posted - as it makes clear the link between Germany and WW2 with the EU as it is today.

Regarding your question, I don't blame Germany for being in the position she's in today - it is what it is. However, I think everyone on all sides of the Brexit debate will agree that Germany is the linchpin that's critical to it's success and that, without her, the whole thing will start to unravel pretty quickly. Were the pin to break, leaving aside whether or not one thinks that would be a good thing or a bad thing - logic suggests it will happen sooner or later. I admit I'm no economist, but I'll wager that there's no country in the world whose economy has gone from strength to strength ad infinitum. It's only a question of time before Germany hits hard times and, when that happens, the ripples will be felt right across the EU. Going back to your merchant seaman days, would you want to go to sea in a ship knowing that it only had one really powerful engine and, if it packed up, the ship wouldn't get very far on a few Honda 50cc outboards? Okay, that's a bit of an extreme caricature of the EU but, in broad terms, that's pretty much how I view it.
Tim.

A few years ago, when Harry Redknapp was being put forward as a possible England manager, he was being asked lots of questions about what changes he would make. His answer was "You are getting me fired and I haven't been hired, yet!"

There's a lot of speculation about what the future holds for Europe. We'll, just, have to wait and see.

About your example of a ship with only one engine, Tim. In "Supership" ,Noel Mostert's account on his voyage on a P&O 214,000 ton tanker, he makes several criticisms of how these ships were built. Some owners only put one boiler into some of them. That makes a ship very vulnerable. Most of the ships I sailed in had two, or three. A favourite question asked at oral exams was "What would you do if your ship lost its rudder?" Or propeller? I tell you! When we left port, we did not thing of horrible things like that, but more mundane things, like--"I hope we've got a decent cook"

 

[barjon]

Hi Split',
Check out the video c_v posted - as it makes clear the link between Germany and WW2 with the EU as it is today.

Regarding your question, I don't blame Germany for being in the position she's in today - it is what it is. However, I think everyone on all sides of the Brexit debate will agree that Germany is the linchpin that's critical to it's success and that, without her, the whole thing will start to unravel pretty quickly. Were the pin to break, leaving aside whether or not one thinks that would be a good thing or a bad thing - logic suggests it will happen sooner or later. I admit I'm no economist, but I'll wager that there's no country in the world whose economy has gone from strength to strength ad infinitum. It's only a question of time before Germany hits hard times and, when that happens, the ripples will be felt right across the EU. Going back to your merchant seaman days, would you want to go to sea in a ship knowing that it only had one really powerful engine and, if it packed up, the ship wouldn't get very far on a few Honda 50cc outboards? Okay, that's a bit of an extreme caricature of the EU but, in broad terms, that's pretty much how I view it.
Tim.

You're full of those codswallop analogies, Tim

I see it rather differently from schooldays when the school houses were rivals engendering strong loyalties. They faced internally, though, and when it came to external face it was the school itself that counted and engendered loyalty from the pupils exceeding those internal ones.

It's that external step that many in our country (one of the the EU school's houses) have never been able to make.

 

[mike.]

I see Corbyn has won his leadership election, the tories will be out partying tonight.... In all my days i've never seen such a weak leader, in fact you cant even call him a leader....head of Labour party.

All of them just a bunch of half educated wannabe politicians.

 

[Atilla]

I see Corbyn has won his leadership election, the tories will be out partying tonight.... In all my days i've never seen such a weak leader, in fact you cant even call him a leader....head of Labour party.

All of them just a bunch of half educated wannabe politicians.

Interesting what you say but word of caution here...

Listening to some pre- Hilary v Trump debate, the word is that Trump appeals to voters emotions. Hilary states facts adn figures which really does not win hearts and minds but washes over people. Suggestion is that Hilary must play to win over peoples emotions.

They mention Al Gore and Kerry's debates with Bush where the key distinctions were facts over emotions. The same with Obama apparently who won people over with his great speeches appealing to their hearts and minds. Not blinding them with facts and figures and statistics on the economy.

Common denominator seems to be to win the less educated voter over because there are more of them. Which will explain why out of the US of A, there is only Hilary and Trump left to select from.

Same goes for Brexit imo. Where people voted with their hearts and hope. I think same may well go for Corbyn, as he is winning people over.

I agree with some of his policies too. Crazy as it sounds, crazy as he is. Temptation is to say feck it let's give the b******s, FTSE big fat's, big earners, tax dodgers, tax haven scivers, big private ex-national monopolies a good kick up the back side. This may come into bigger play should another dip or recession come about with another big fall out. They bailed out the finance industry to the tune of trillions, what's 100bn given to bolster manufacturing.

The pound will probably drop another 10-15%.


I dunno, not a big fan of Labour but I can see it gathering pace and legs. I never thought Trump would get to where he is today. Time to modify and learn from ones mistakes. I never thought UK public would vote for Brexit either. So anyone who's thinking British electorate is smarter than the US red knecks think again.

Northern men don't have much to lose. :idea:

 

[mike.]

Just watching real housewives of Cheshire.....I'll get back to you later..

 

[counter_violent]

Interesting what you say but word of caution here...

Listening to some pre- Hilary v Trump debate, the word is that Trump appeals to voters emotions. Hilary states facts adn figures which really does not win hearts and minds but washes over people. Suggestion is that Hilary must play to win over peoples emotions.

They mention Al Gore and Kerry's debates with Bush where the key distinctions were facts over emotions. The same with Obama apparently who won people over with his great speeches appealing to their hearts and minds. Not blinding them with facts and figures and statistics on the economy.

Common denominator seems to be to win the less educated voter over because there are more of them. Which will explain why out of the US of A, there is only Hilary and Trump left to select from.

Same goes for Brexit imo. Where people voted with their hearts and hope. I think same may well go for Corbyn, as he is winning people over.

I agree with some of his policies too. Crazy as it sounds, crazy as he is. Temptation is to say feck it let's give the b******s, FTSE big fat's, big earners, tax dodgers, tax haven scivers, big private ex-national monopolies a good kick up the back side. This may come into bigger play should another dip or recession come about with another big fall out. They bailed out the finance industry to the tune of trillions, what's 100bn given to bolster manufacturing.

The pound will probably drop another 10-15%.


I dunno, not a big fan of Labour but I can see it gathering pace and legs. I never thought Trump would get to where he is today. Time to modify and learn from ones mistakes. I never thought UK public would vote for Brexit either. So anyone who's thinking British electorate is smarter than the US red knecks think again.

Northern men don't have much to lose. :idea:

Oh I see, it's all about Northern Men now is it.

You really are a chump.

 

[Atilla]

Oh I see, it's all about Northern Men now is it.

You really are a chump.

North South divide innit???

Just saying like

 

[counter_violent]

North South divide innit???

Just saying like

Yes very much so.

Northern Europe works ok, but Southern Europe causes a lot of the problems, dragging down the whole.

You could easily argue that the South of the UK has caused all of the UK's problems.

 

[Atilla]

Yes very much so.

..

You could easily argue that the South of the UK has caused all of the UK's problems.

You make my point very well!

Cheers :cheers:

 

[mike.]

Interesting what you say but word of caution here...

Listening to some pre- Hilary v Trump debate, the word is that Trump appeals to voters emotions. Hilary states facts adn figures which really does not win hearts and minds but washes over people. Suggestion is that Hilary must play to win over peoples emotions.

They mention Al Gore and Kerry's debates with Bush where the key distinctions were facts over emotions. The same with Obama apparently who won people over with his great speeches appealing to their hearts and minds. Not blinding them with facts and figures and statistics on the economy.

Common denominator seems to be to win the less educated voter over because there are more of them. Which will explain why out of the US of A, there is only Hilary and Trump left to select from.

Same goes for Brexit imo. Where people voted with their hearts and hope. I think same may well go for Corbyn, as he is winning people over.

I agree with some of his policies too. Crazy as it sounds, crazy as he is. Temptation is to say feck it let's give the b******s, FTSE big fat's, big earners, tax dodgers, tax haven scivers, big private ex-national monopolies a good kick up the back side. This may come into bigger play should another dip or recession come about with another big fall out. They bailed out the finance industry to the tune of trillions, what's 100bn given to bolster manufacturing.

The pound will probably drop another 10-15%.


I dunno, not a big fan of Labour but I can see it gathering pace and legs. I never thought Trump would get to where he is today. Time to modify and learn from ones mistakes. I never thought UK public would vote for Brexit either. So anyone who's thinking British electorate is smarter than the US red knecks think again.

Northern men don't have much to lose. :idea:

We're living in very testing times at the moment, who would want to be prime minister having to sort out Brexit, Trump, Syria and the list go's on....I've been a labour supporter since Blair won the election, without going into to much detail find the party a laughing stock now....With regards to Brexit, there are far to many scalpers on here whom expect change next week, you won't see any significant changes in the next 5 year's at least, it's a matter of securing the future for the next generation, even if they don't appreciate it yet.....

With regards to northern men.....well, the nothern powerhouse is coming to take over.......

London ? ? Is that a village down south somewhere :whistling

 

[Oscar Reed]

Can you blame Brexit for this.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../fire-service-bosses-withdraw-threat-11944233

 

[counter_violent]

Can you blame Brexit for this.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../fire-service-bosses-withdraw-threat-11944233

A good friend of mine was a fire fighter and he explained to me why the fire service has seen thousands of job losses and cuts to their budget over the years.

The reason is very simple.

They did such a fantastic job in educating the public in fire prevention, that they effectively made themselves redundant. There simply aren't enough fires to warrant current manning and equipment levels.

 

[Atilla]

A good friend of mine was a fire fighter and he explained to me why the fire service has seen thousands of job losses and cuts to their budget over the years.

The reason is very simple.

They did such a fantastic job in educating the public in fire prevention, that they effectively made themselves redundant. There simply aren't enough fires to warrant current manning and equipment levels.

Hmmm, the dispute is over changing contract to work 12-hour. longer shifts.

Something doesn't add up

 

[Atilla]

Brexit means Brexit??? Hard or Soft Brexit???

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...bulletin-do-you-like-your-brexit-hard-or-soft

Raoul Ruparel of Open Europe defines “Very Hard Brexit” as dumping the EU and accepting World Trade Organization rules. “Hard Brexit” is agreeing a minimal trade pact with the EU, while a soft version would see the U.K. join the European Economic Area and so largely stay inside the single market without a say over its rules.

:whistling

Pick your spot!!!

 

[mike.]

There's hope yet Atilla, Sarkozy has stated that should he become president he will work with Merkel to offer a whole new EU agreement to keep the UK in the EU..... wonder which part that " we don't want to be governed by the EU in any shape or form" is he not grasping ? Sorry nick lad, you had your chances...we're off.

 

[Splitlink]

There's hope yet Atilla, Sarkozy has stated that should he become president he will work with Merkel to offer a whole new EU agreement to keep the UK in the EU..... wonder which part that " we don't want to be governed by the EU in any shape or form" is he not grasping ? Sorry nick lad, you had your chances...we're off.

Mike, I have lived over here long enough to know that we must wait until it happens. In Spain, we have been without a government since Christmas. Now, we have to wait until October, just in case they manage to form a government. Otherrwise, they will have to declare new elections for just before Christmas. They were talking about Christmas Day, but there was, almost, a civil war. So, it is just before Christmas.

Hung parliaments seem to be getting common, everywhere, lately, with the result that nothing gets done. If France has one--and it's possible-- and Germany, as well----you can imagine!