Brexit and the Consequences

[dbphoenix]

Why is it a problem to subsidize others who have less?

You could say London subsidizes large parts of England. Or maybe also Manchester does. Should London or Manchester become an independent state, rather than subsidize the UK? Definitely some Londoners would want that. Where does it end?

Or would you go even further...why should the high tax payers subsidize the low?

Don't you accept that there are benefits to this sort of thing? That despite you paying more than the average amount in tax, it's better for society as a whole that the wealthy pay more to help out those who have less. Might it also be beneficial to subsidize some weaker European countries, for the good of Europe as a whole?

Looks like we're moving to a more selfish isolationist world, where people just want to be with those of the same financial wealth or same race, religion or whatever.

This relates to what I've said about the social contract. Not everyone adheres to or values the same contract, which is one reason why wealth is so concentrated among one segment of society.

It does little to no good to debate/argue these points with those who operate out of separate conceptual frameworks, e.g., capitalism v socialism. It does help, however, to remember than anyone who pay taxes is to some extent a socialist.

 

[mike.]

Don't give up just yet Split. Parliement rules supreme. Referendum is simply guidance not rule of law.

The fat lady is gargling though.....:clap:

 

[Atilla]

The fat lady is gargling though.....:clap:

Theresa May is not fat :cheesy:
Doubt she'll ever get to sing that tune. (Is that a spelling error )

Some may further conclude, by the site of her hubby nor is she a good cook. Career bodies, the two of them.

She has forke tongue though that's for sure. Snake skinned and very slippery too. Who knows where she stands. When I hear her speak my brain receives IRQs from my logic board.Numbers don't add up.


All eyes to Parliament.

We may yet have a new champion in Tim Farron.

https://mobile.twitter.com/timfarron?p=i

 

[timsk]

. . . We may yet have a new champion in Tim Farron.

I wouldn't hold your breath Atilla!

The only thing Tim Farron will ever be a champion of is seeing how many core Liberal principles he can abandon in the shortest space of time. Top of the list is his party calling themselves Liberal Democrats and then doing everything they can to go against the democratic will of the people. It's pathetic. I've voted liberal most of my life and, as things stand, I'd rather give my vote to Corbyn at the next election than to Tim Farron. Yep, it's that bad. Poor ol' Lloyd George must be turning in his grave.
Tim.

 

[Mr. Charts]

I wouldn't hold your breath Atilla!

The only thing Tim Farron will ever be a champion of is seeing how many core Liberal principles he can abandon in the shortest space of time. Top of the list is his party calling themselves Liberal Democrats and then doing everything they can to go against the democratic will of the people. It's pathetic. I've voted liberal most of my life and, as things stand, I'd rather give my vote to Corbyn at the next election than to Tim Farron. Yep, it's that bad. Poor ol' Lloyd George must be turning in his grave.
Tim.

Farron, like Corbyn, has the statesmanship of a meerkat, but without the charm or brain cells.

 

[Atilla]

Yes well maybe all three parties will join together and have a free vote as Cameron offered.

Once Parliament starts debating the issue, lies and deceit by either side, will not be allowed to fly without being challenged for what it is. Then we have the Lords.

We live in hope. :jester:

 

[sminicooper]

Don't give up just yet Split. Parliement rules supreme. Referendum is simply guidance not rule of law.

If Parliament ignores the democratic will of the electorate it will precipitate a constitutional crisis. Pseudo democrats like Farron, Branson, Miller and their ilk are walking in dangerous territory. Brexit DOES mean Brexit.

They just don't get it.

 

[sminicooper]

I think UK will leave, Atilla, British ar@es smell best. Any NHS doctor will tell you that!

I wonder how many other countries have the same trade agreement? However, the 10 billion saved afterwards makes it all worth while. Think what it will do for the NHS, you poor, deluded, lot!

That's a novel way of determining the political future of the UK. Is it some new kind of discipline sponsored by the BMA and taught at the LSE these days?

 

[Atilla]

If Parliament ignores the democratic will of the electorate it will precipitate a constitutional crisis. Pseudo democrats like Farron, Branson, Miller and their ilk are walking in dangerous territory. Brexit DOES mean Brexit.

They just don't get it.

Markets still on hype running on the hot air of easy money. Wait till;

interest rates start going up,
prices going up,
markets closing down and
international trade ceasing up.

Europe will come out stronger and more unified. You know why, because EU works for her people whilst US and UK works for pockets of selfish interests.

 

[sminicooper]

Markets still on hype running on the hot air of easy money. Wait till;

interest rates start going up,
prices going up,
markets closing down and
international trade ceasing up.

Europe will come out stronger and more unified. You know why, because EU works for her people whilst US and UK works for pockets of selfish interests.

All of the above may/may not be true, but what's it got to do with Parliamentary and electoral democracy?

 

[Atilla]

All of the above may/may not be true, but what's it got to do with Parliamentary and electoral democracy?

Politicians can't lie in Parliament.

Electioneering whaffle will be challenged by both sides of the devide and voted on by, let's call it more informed and realistic bodies.

Then the same process will be carried in the HoLs where one hopes people who don't need money, can weigh the arguments in the national interest.


With respect to previous post, peoples expectations and voting behaviour changes with the economic climate.

 

[sminicooper]

Politicians can't lie in Parliament.

Electioneering whaffle will be challenged by both sides of the devide and voted on by, let's call it more informed and realistic bodies.

Then the same process will be carried in the HoLs where one hopes people who don't need money, can weigh the arguments in the national interest.


With respect to previous post, peoples expectations and voting behaviour changes with the economic climate.

All true; but do remember that I never said that democracy necessarily comes up with the right or best answer. (Didn't Churchill say it's the least worst system?) My only point is that we live in a democratic society and that we should respect democratic outcomes. Whether we like the outcomes or whether they are good or bad is another matter.

 

[Splitlink]

Markets still on hype running on the hot air of easy money. Wait till;

interest rates start going up,
prices going up,
markets closing down and
international trade ceasing up.

Europe will come out stronger and more unified. You know why, because EU works for her people whilst US and UK works for pockets of selfish interests.

I hope that you are right, Atilla. Trump's first move supports that claim. Who will suffer most from the abolition of Obamacare, the rich or the poor?

 

[Atilla]

All true; but do remember that I never said that democracy necessarily comes up with the right or best answer. (Didn't Churchill say it's the least worst system?) My only point is that we live in a democratic society and that we should respect democratic outcomes. Whether we like the outcomes or whether they are good or bad is another matter.

If you are a serious national UK citizen then the crux of the matter lies with UK economic history which has been pretty much in decline since the great exhibition at Crystal Palace organised by Prince Albert.

We are going back into what has made us fall behind, instead of tackling core reasons.

Since joining EU our GDP position has gone from 7/8th place to 5th.

If you are a serious honest UK citizen, then referendum was simply a guide and a political attempt to shut the Tory party up and kick UKIP to the side.

Tory party may come to where Labour party is today and UKIP is being kicked into the dirt now by TM who appreciates politics perhaps just as much as Cameron did.


During all this squabbling the nation will come to suffer.

As in every dispute, usually both sides lose.

As in every agreement reached, usually both sides win.

Times change, people change and the environment changes. As I keep saying if you identify root causes incorrectly, then follow through policies will also be so very wrong.


Referendum from 37% of the electorate is not the place to have that discussion or debate with power hungry crazed politicians.

28% didn't even understand the debate or couldn't make up their minds and so didn't vote. That's only 9% away from the Brexit camp.


Brexiters keep trumpeting the referendum but it is no way to lead any country.

Do you not see this?

Are you just another opportunist like Michael Gove?

 

[Atilla]

I hope that you are right, Atilla. Trump's first move supports that claim. Who will suffer most from the abolition of Obamacare, the rich or the poor?

It will become closer and more united for sure imho.

It works for her people. The commission and the Union. I think both Greece, Italy and Spain were big tests.

This chart says it all for me.

So as UK and US go back into their hole and demise, there is a global trend towards agreements. If US turns its back on EU then EU has ample opportunity for trade deals with Russia and China.

Have you heard about the new Chinese silk road rail project?

Eyes to the East


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/east-wind-train-blows-china-re-open-silk-road-trail/

 

[dbphoenix]

Referendum from 37% of the electorate is not the place to have that discussion or debate with power hungry crazed politicians.

28% didn't even understand the debate or couldn't make up their minds and so didn't vote. That's only 9% away from the Brexit camp.


Brexiters keep trumpeting the referendum but it is no way to lead any country.

You make an important point here that is missed by virtually everyone, even those who repeatedly play the democracy card. In 2016, 231,000,000 people were eligible to vote. Only 130,000,000 took the time to do so. Less than half of these voted for Trump, and yet he and his team insist that he and his have a "mandate".

Now what lessons regarding "democracy" can be drawn from this?

 

[Splitlink]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/18/east-wind-train-blows-china-re-open-silk-road-trail/[/url]

Jeremiah 5:21 ‘Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not’.

 

[sminicooper]

Do you not see this?

Yes, of course I do see all of that! And you make perfectly good and reasoned argument. But clown Cameron organised a referendum – and yes I agree, it wasn't necessarily for the good of the nation. But a referendum is a referendum. If we went back and discounted/disputed every questionable and bad decision made by one of our parliamentarians in authority with a view to reversing the outcome of their decisions, things could be very different for better or for worse (depending on your outlook). But we can't and don't do that – that's part of the British constitutional status quo.

Whatever else we do, we must respect our democracy. Failure to do that leads to anarchy – and that's the start of a trend I now detect with groups of people who aren't satisfied with democratic outcomes. Remainers are perfectly entitled to pursue their aims through the democratic process – which is in fact what they're doing. I don't like it but it's their right to do so.

My Elliott waves predict that you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this so perhaps we should leave it there, because I'm worried that Sharky might start charging us for all the bandwidth we are using since its content may well be considered 99.9% cr@p by our learned trading members in other threads.

 

[Atilla]

You make an important point here that is missed by virtually everyone, even those who repeatedly play the democracy card. In 2016, 231,000,000 people were eligible to vote. Only 130,000,000 took the time to do so. Less than half of these voted for Trump, and yet he and his team insist that he and his have a "mandate".

Now what lessons regarding "democracy" can be drawn from this?

Obama talked about this and just how difficult it is to vote in the US. Didn't quite understand the difficulties but should be looked into and made easy.

 

[Splitlink]

Yes, of course I do see all of that! And you make perfectly good and reasoned argument. But clown Cameron organised a referendum – and yes I agree, it wasn't necessarily for the good of the nation. But a referendum is a referendum. If we went back and discounted/disputed every questionable and bad decision made by one of our parliamentarians in authority with a view to reversing the outcome of their decisions, things could be very different for better or for worse (depending on your outlook). But we can't and don't do that – that's part of the British constitutional status quo.

Whatever else we do, we must respect our democracy. Failure to do that leads to anarchy – and that's the start of a trend I now detect with groups of people who aren't satisfied with democratic outcomes. Remainers are perfectly entitled to pursue their aims through the democratic process – which is in fact what they're doing. I don't like it but it's their right to do so.

My Elliott waves predict that you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this so perhaps we should leave it there, because I'm worried that Sharky might start charging us for all the bandwidth we are using since its content may well be considered 99.9% cr@p by our learned trading members in other threads.

Cameron was trying to win an election. He played the referendum card and won the election. Bad for everyone that he lost the referendum.

A 52% win from 37% of the electorate is a poor way to run a democracy.

It reminds me of how a quorum of about 12 members, probably, even less, could bring a whole garage out on strike and did,many times. Some garages,-- I'm talking about the old LPTB, where my father was a driver--were hotbeds for strike action.

If a minority group gets control, watch it!