Brexit and the Consequences

[mike.]

Can we just pause Brexit until we choose a new PM, ? Couple of weeks should do it, I’m hearing we’ve hit the 48 letter threshold.

 

[Atilla]

Can we just pause Brexit until we choose a new PM, ? Couple of weeks should do it, I’m hearing we’ve hit the 48 letter threshold.

For you Mikey, anything. Can even stop it! Just say the word.

You know it makes sense

 

[mike.]

Nah, just over the Christmas period will be fine , then we can get back to sorting that WTO membership, you know it makes sense Rodney. 👍

 

[Signalcalc]

You say the issue is one of perception!
1. Is that what you truly believe
2. Is that what you believe because politicians have told you so

All politicians need a scape goat. Italy is case in point. Promise the world deliver jack.

I'm a little confused with your stance. As a thinking body, do your recognise you've been led up the garden path or you still suggesting EU is still the problem and you want exit?

I really don't care for France, their riots or what colours vehicles painted. Has no bearing on Brexit. To me it's the same tosh as the Greek, Italian and other Politicians blaming the EU for their troubles. EU sets targets about having a balanced budget and spending limits. If lesser developed regions in the UK start rioting will that be a EU problem? No it is the countries local problem.

First it's the refugees who get bombed the sh!t out of them, then the experts who always get it wrong, and now we are working up to the elitists, intellectuals. As always ultimately Europeans. So we want to take back control.

It's never the polticians or national policy fault is it? That's not possible coz they have no control. It's all the Refugees and Europeans fault. We are just so awesome. In fact it is them keeping us behind. Always is. If not for THEM refugees and Europeans, we'd be awesome and great again as we were once before.

Some people buy this tosh. Who'd think it?

Macron is the embodiment of the EU which is why he is using the EU military machinery to quell an uprising of EU citizens, all predicted, all come true, wake up and smell the jackboot.

 

[counter_violent]

How many PM's toppled over the vexed EU issue down the years. Brexit voters should all be given gongs for their selfless contribution, taking back control and restoring the UK's independence.

 

[Signalcalc]

How many PM's toppled over the vexed EU issue down the years. Brexit voters should all be given gongs for their selfless contribution, taking back control and restoring the UK's independence.

She only went to Brussels to gladhand her fellow elites for the last time, to apologise that her parliament could not accept the EUs demands, eat final meals, hand out her CV, it was reciprocated of course by Merkel and ‘soon to be history’ Macron.

Had to laugh at the Guardian article pointing out the not so humble pie Macron wasn’t eating when he addressed the EU nation yesterday from a very opulent gold plated Parisian mansion, those poor French peasants must have really rallied to his call for peace!

Let them eat cake.

 

[Atilla]

Yay!

Brexit is about to be consigned to history archives.

Buy the pound

 

[timsk]

Hi Atilla,

You say the issue is one of perception!
1. Is that what you truly believe
2. Is that what you believe because politicians have told you so

1. Yes.
2. No.
For me, perception trumps truth / lies and facts / opinions. It's a lesson I learnt soon after I joined T2W staff in the days when I, the Mods and Sharky were criticised and attacked on a regular basis. We could present members with irrefutable truths, backed by watertight facts (about how the site is/was run), but our efforts were often in vein simply because some members perceived otherwise.

The EU may be the lovely, cuddly and friendly organisation that remainers would have us all believe, but that counts for diddly squat if the perception is that it's an autocratic, inflexible and undemocratic institution that does not take kindly to dissenting voices - be they people voting against it in referendums or demonstrating against it in the streets. Perception is everything.

I'm a little confused with your stance. As a thinking body, do your recognise you've been led up the garden path or you still suggesting EU is still the problem and you want exit?

AS a matter of interest, which part of my body does the thinking? ;-)

Well, here's a case in point. Your perception is that I and other Brexiteers have been lead up the garden path and you've spent countless hours writing many hundreds (thousands?) of posts presenting your 'truth' and 'facts' and yet, bizarrely, I and other Brexiteers still don't seem to be convinced. Why? Because our perception of the whole issue is completely different to yours; we're looking at it differently and see (perceive) things very differently to you. And visa versa, of course.

Anyway, as I said a few posts ago, IMO, the issue of trust and confidence in our political system is what's on the line now and that is waaay more important than any kind of Brexit that we may - or may not - end up with. And the first step towards addressing this issue is for the Tories to get shot of Mrs. May in tonight's no confidence vote.
Tim.

 

[NVP]

risky move by the dissenters .......48 no confidence votes is one thing .....getting the majority of conservatives to oust her is another ........

i will bet on her remaining .....

N

 

[sminicooper]

risky move by the dissenters .......48 no confidence votes is one thing .....getting the majority of conservatives to oust her is another ........

i will bet on her remaining .....

N

There's an awful lot of chancers (supported by their followers) who fancy her job – I reckon she will be done for. A replacement couldn't be any worse than her – could it??

 

[Signalcalc]

There's an awful lot of chancers (supported by their followers) who fancy her job – I reckon she will be done for. A replacement couldn't be any worse than her – could it??

risky move by the dissenters .......48 no confidence votes is one thing .....getting the majority of conservatives to oust her is another ........

i will bet on her remaining .....

N

I'm not so sure they are chancers, she let the Tory party down when she lost her majority at the last election, they have let her loose for too long and she has caused unending damage to their party and all our confidence in the Brexit process. Quite rightly the worst PM in British history. Now that they have a real chance of installing a Brexiteer they would be foolish to squander the opportunity at this important juncture, I can't see them letting her get away with it this time.

 

[Signalcalc]

Seems a clear path now, the law is that we leave on the 29th, with no agreement in place that = no deal, as I said a couple of days ago it's the future. Unless the law changes (which is highly unlikely) then we leave with no deal, parliament can pass resolutions, but that does not change the law.

As long as the next Tory leader is not a remainer, balls of steel needed by the Tories for the next 3 months, let's hope they have them.

But then there is always a rabbit that the EU could pull out of a hat, to create a palatable deal but the rhetoric doesn't appear to be that way inclined....

 

[sminicooper]

I'm not so sure they are chancers, she let the Tory party down when she lost her majority at the last election, they have let her loose for too long and she has caused unending damage to their party and all our confidence in the Brexit process. Quite rightly the worst PM in British history. Now that they have a real chance of installing a Brexiteer they would be foolish to squander the opportunity at this important juncture, I can't see them letting her get away with it this time.

I also suspect, bearing in mind the confidence ballot is secret, that a lot who publicly profess to support her at the moment (especially the weasels in the Cabinet) will not do so when it comes to placing their cross. Gove would be a leading candidate for this and like many of his colleagues has form for being untrustworthy.

What they are doing now (unwittingly or otherwise) is laying the groundwork for the next general election which could come sooner than we expect and if they hang on to May the Conservative party will be slaughtered. If they change leader there will at least be a glimmer of hope if that person can get Brexit right.

As Sir Humphrey Appleby said: "you have to get behind somebody before you can stab them in the back".

 

[Signalcalc]

What I would like to know at this stage and it appears to be a question the MSM is not asking, is why did she delay the vote and what has she done on her visit to Bruxelles? I've not heard her come back with a new negotiated plan or told us what she has or hasn't achieved from the visit, it may be a moot question of course, but I suspect not. The fact that she has kept silent about why and what she did over there is speaking volumes for the next step in this game.

Plan B is in motion, but what is it exactly? Even her address this morning appears to be a play act, as if this is all contrived somehow and we are being duped into thinking that this is not planned. I am naturally sceptical of every move being made at the moment, but the fact that MSM has not raised the question, nor the PM provided an explanation is highly suspicious.

The Maybot is playing her role well, her deep state handlers have this all planned.......

The statement that a new leader would have to delay or recind Art 50 is a clever one as she is stating that Jan 21st deadline will not be met puts me in mind that this needs to be a wholesale takeover in the Tory party, anything less is leaving the door open to trashing the process.

^^^^But that is only if we need to secure a negotiated deal, otherwise.....all roads lead to no deal.

She is a remainer through and through, this end game is showing that in spades.

 

[counter_violent]

I have no doubt that she will top the vote tonight, but that's really not the point. What we do know is that a minimum of 48 will vote against her. The interesting thing will be, how many more will vote against her. She can claim a victory if she gets over half the votes, but that isn't a meaningful number as has been demonstrated previously when Thatcher was advised to leave despite winning the vote.

What is May's uncle point? That's the question. Perhaps even more important, what will her advisors say is her uncle point.

 

[Atilla]

 

[counter_violent]

Well that's that then....she's toast. 200 v 117.
37% of her back benchers no confidence.

Can't possibly get her version of Brexit through the house as the Brexiteer MP's will oppose everything that gives any power to EU position. And lets not forget the DUP who also will not support the Govt position under May. So unless she manages to convince the EU to make major concessions which guarantee we leave the EU, then the clock ticks down to a no deal exit on March 29th 2019 which is the lawful agreed position.

 

[Atilla]

Pound recovered today on anticipation of vote and for some odd profound reason pulled back when she won. I don't think market likes her much

 

[Atilla]

Hi Atilla,

1. Yes.
2. No.
For me, perception trumps truth / lies and facts / opinions. It's a lesson I learnt soon after I joined T2W staff in the days when I, the Mods and Sharky were criticised and attacked on a regular basis. We could present members with irrefutable truths, backed by watertight facts (about how the site is/was run), but our efforts were often in vein simply because some members perceived otherwise.

Yep agree with you hear. I always thought T2W was doing a good job though through many of those snipes. No matter what cream always rises to the top and sediments sink given enough time.

The EU may be the lovely, cuddly and friendly organisation that remainers would have us all believe, but that counts for diddly squat if the perception is that it's an autocratic, inflexible and undemocratic institution that does not take kindly to dissenting voices - be they people voting against it in referendums or demonstrating against it in the streets. Perception is everything.

This begs the question why the newspapers and some elements portray it as such. So on one level academics can say EU process is far removed from people then on the other hand if the EU spends money on communicating all the good work it delivers ie like posters in Wales telling people where some of those brand spanking new complexes were funded from, newspapers turn round and say - this is how the EU spends our contribution by putting up boards and posters. EU can't win with a belligerent ungrateful media. Much like Brexiteers, they'll criticise the EU no matter what they do. SignalCalc is one body who's a prime example.

IAS a matter of interest, which part of my body does the thinking? ;-)

LOL know what you mean here. I've seen that film too, man with two brains.

Well, here's a case in point. Your perception is that I and other Brexiteers have been lead up the garden path and you've spent countless hours writing many hundreds (thousands?) of posts presenting your 'truth' and 'facts' and yet, bizarrely, I and other Brexiteers still don't seem to be convinced. Why? Because our perception of the whole issue is completely different to yours; we're looking at it differently and see (perceive) things very differently to you. And visa versa, of course.

Agreed, two bodies can look at a mountain peak from different positions and see two different views. Never the less, the mountain remains the same mountain. It's not exactly EU's fault how national governments choose to stand by different policies. Rules, regulations and directives remain the same to all members.

Anyway, as I said a few posts ago, IMO, the issue of trust and confidence in our political system is what's on the line now and that is waaay more important than any kind of Brexit that we may - or may not - end up with. And the first step towards addressing this issue is for the Tories to get shot of Mrs. May in tonight's no confidence vote.
Tim.

I beg to differ on your last point. The referendum was advisory. It does not represent the law of the land which is Parliament. The papers, the politicians and the people have been sold a pack of false promises that can not be delivered. They've even labelled the highest court in the land which claimed sovereignty of parliament traitors.

Moreover, the same numpties who bang on about taking back control are quite happy to cut and paste all EU rules into UK books whilst taking control away from Parliament.

TM held in contempt of Parliament. First time. Talk about sidelining parliament. Can anyone imagine what life would be like with Brexiteers thinking they have some carte blanche cheque to do what they bloody well like? Worst nightmare.


We need to bury Brexit. Euroseptic Remoaners are a minority and I'd hazard a guess they only represent 20-30% of the UK population if that?


As for where we go from here that's the big question. I still feel TM's half baked deal is naff and will cost UK more without really delivering a real deal. It's simply transition period when extended will cost more. During this time EU funds and investment will stop, uncertainty will prevail and a new deal hammered going forward. It's a load of costly tripe for impending worse deal.

If the EU gave UK a better deal than what she had, would that be fair on the remaining 27 member countries. No. Not exactly fair play by UK and I don't feel EU will entertain the thought either.

I now turn over TV station when TM when appears and opens her gob as I do when Trump starts talking. Feel as if my brain dies a little every time I have to listen to them talk crap.


Uncertainty prevails.

 

[timsk]

. . . We need to bury Brexit. . .

Hi Atilla,
I stick to my main point about perception. You may be 100% correct in all you say about Brexit but the perception amongst huge swathes of the population is that Brexit needs to be delivered (not least because both main parties promised that it would be). So, if you and fellow remainers want to ditch it you'll have to find a way to do it that takes account of leavers views (albeit that they are stupid and misguided, lol!). This is vital to ensure that Brexiteers don't end up feeling ignored, disenfranchised and generally pooped on from a great height. If you don't do that and Brexit is dumped (or we just get BRINO), then I fear that what we've witnessed on the Streets of Paris will be mirrored here in the U.K. And whilst we don't agree on much regarding this topic, I trust we can both agree that we don't want that.

In principle, if the right terms can be agreed in advance, reluctantly I would accept a second referendum as a way out of the impasse. However, those calling for one have to get real. As an ex-Green Party member, I had a certain amount of time for Caroline Lucas. Not any more. Hearing her pitch on the live TV debate the other evening left me speechless - as she wants just two options on the ballot paper: Hard Remain (i.e. the status quo) and Soft Remain (i.e. Mrs. May's lousy deal). How she imagines that a 'People's Vote' that doesn't contain a leave option that reflects what people voted for in the 2016 referendum is in any way fair and democratic is beyond comprehension. Let's hope her wish doesn't come true, as it's tantamount to an incitement to riot. I will never engage in or condone violence - but if this affront to democracy is allowed to happen then, for the first time in over 30 years, I will take to the streets in protest.
Tim.