Brexit and the Consequences

Atilla

Legendary member
19,028 2,674
slow to understand.

You, 007 and the rest of Brexiteers clearly do not understand Parliamentary Sovereignty, how bills are passed and if a politician tells you something it is not binding in law.

Take back control mantra has gone to your heads. It doesn't mean tyranny and dictatorship or popularism.

Thank goodness for our institutions protecting us from mad nutters.
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,053 1,860
You, 007 and the rest of Brexiteers clearly do not understand Parliamentary Sovereignty, how bills are passed and if a politician tells you something it is not binding in law.

Take back control mantra has gone to your heads. It doesn't mean tyranny and dictatorship or popularism.

Thank goodness for our institutions protecting us from mad nutters.
Who, exactly, are you calling 'mad nutters'?

What I don't understand is your belief that it is perfectly normal and acceptable for politicians to make clear and binding statements of intent in order to get elected and then do the polar opposite when they are. Or, in Cameron and Clegg's case, to do so when in power prior to the referendum. On that basis you'll be perfectly happy to support the LibDems if they do another u-turn and say they want a no-deal Brexit. (I know that's not going to happen - I'm just illustrating the point.) To be clear At', we're not talking about being economical with the truth or over egging the pudding here - which is part and parcel of every day politics - I accept that completely. What's happening now is in a completely different league. In my book it's deception and, potentially, fraudulent. Surely it's perfectly reasonable for the electorate to expect politicians to behave with a modicum of honour and integrity and to boot them out if they fail to do so. It happened following the expenses scandal and I expect fully it will happen again at the next general election.
Tim.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TEAMTRADER

barjon

Legendary member
10,309 1,566
Who, exactly, are you calling 'mad nutters'?

What I don't understand is your belief that it is perfectly normal and acceptable for politicians to make clear and binding statements of intent in order to get elected and then do the polar opposite when they are. Or, in Cameron and Clegg's case, to do so when in power prior to the referendum. On that basis you'll be perfectly happy to support the LibDems if they do another u-turn and say they want a no-deal Brexit. (I know that's not going to happen - I'm just illustrating the point.) To be clear At', we're not talking about being economical with the truth or over egging the pudding here - which is part and parcel of every day politics - I accept that completely. What's happening now is in a completely different league. In my book it's deception and, potentially, fraudulent. Surely it's perfectly reasonable for the electorate to expect politicians to behave with a modicum of honour and integrity and to boot them out if they fail to do so. It happened following the expenses scandal and I expect fully it will happen again at the next general election.
Tim.
Again I think your criticism of MPs is ott.

It is the responsibility of MPs to act in the national interest which has often meant over-riding manifesto commitments. It seems fair for them to argue (or at least debate) whether events in the three years since the referendum have strengthened a case for the national interest to be better served by remaining in. So far, though, most have not gone down that road, but have inhibited a “no deal” exit which the majority of MPs see as very much against the national interest. There is no majority for seeking to remain so I think it’s unfair to claim they are seeking to thwart brexit and acting dishonourably let alone fraudulently.
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,053 1,860
. . .It is the responsibility of MPs to act in the national interest which has often meant over-riding manifesto commitments. . .
Hi Jon,
I could comment on all your points - but we'd just be going around in circles - so I'll restrict myself to addressing the one quoted.

In principle, I agree with you completely. However, in the case of EU membership, MPs have been arguing about this for decades and been unable to decide whether EU membership is in the national interest or not. It's for precisely this very reason that the referendum was called in which, in effect they said: 'we can't decide what to do - so we're handing the decision making process over to you'. Not only that, but as I and others have made crystal clear numerous times - they all promised to abide by the result - making At's dreadfully tedious point about it being an advisory referendum null and void. So, the people decided to leave but the MPs who said they would implement our decision have decided that they don't want to and are going to extraordinary lengths to ensure that we don't. And that's just plain wrong, which is why I stand by my accusation of deception and, possibly, fraud. The 'no-deal' nonsense is nothing but a ruse created post referendum in a thinly disguised attempt to justify the unjustifiable. There was no mention of a deal or no-deal on the ballot paper - just in or out. Leave means leave!
Tim.
 

barjon

Legendary member
10,309 1,566
Hi Jon,
I could comment on all your points - but we'd just be going around in circles - so I'll restrict myself to addressing the one quoted.

In principle, I agree with you completely. However, in the case of EU membership, MPs have been arguing about this for decades and been unable to decide whether EU membership is in the national interest or not. It's for precisely this very reason that the referendum was called in which, in effect they said: 'we can't decide what to do - so we're handing the decision making process over to you'. Not only that, but as I and others have made crystal clear numerous times - they all promised to abide by the result - making At's dreadfully tedious point about it being an advisory referendum null and void. So, the people decided to leave but the MPs who said they would implement our decision have decided that they don't want to and are going to extraordinary lengths to ensure that we don't. And that's just plain wrong, which is why I stand by my accusation of deception and, possibly, fraud. The 'no-deal' nonsense is nothing but a ruse created post referendum in a thinly disguised attempt to justify the unjustifiable. There was no mention of a deal or no-deal on the ballot paper - just in or out. Leave means leave!
Tim.
Yes, leave means leave, but I seem to recall the rhetoric in the leave campaign about a deal, so a deal was pretty much part of leaving In most people’s minds. All the fuss is about preventing no deal and although it’s just a ruse in your mind I think otherwise. Best hang up our hats I think.
 

counter_violent

Legendary member
9,663 2,462
If Brexit is delivered, my fear is that BoJo will try and draw us closer to the USA
Again I think your criticism of MPs is ott.

It is the responsibility of MPs to act in the national interest which has often meant over-riding manifesto commitments. It seems fair for them to argue (or at least debate) whether events in the three years since the referendum have strengthened a case for the national interest to be better served by remaining in. So far, though, most have not gone down that road, but have inhibited a “no deal” exit which the majority of MPs see as very much against the national interest. There is no majority for seeking to remain so I think it’s unfair to claim they are seeking to thwart brexit and acting dishonourably let alone fraudulently.
And by their actions, they have collectively undermined the UK national interest whilst handing the initiative to the EU to maintain their hard ball stance.

So when Brexiters use the words, " traitors and collaborators" to describe those who are undermining the UK Govt position, then they are entirely justified to do so.

At best these MP's are well meaning but totally naive in their methods resulting in unintended consequences. At worst they are willfully and deliberately trying to overturn the referendum result.

Anyway, the UK voting public will not be taken in by any of their shenanigans.
One way or another we will end up at the position that I stated 3 years ago. No Deal, clean break Brexit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TEAMTRADER

Atilla

Legendary member
19,028 2,674
And by their actions, they have collectively undermined the UK national interest
Minority interest Eurosceptics have done what exactly?

Billions of potential investments have been postponed.

Transaction cost for businesses raised soon to be followed by price increases.

Pound crashing to 1.20 against the dollar reducing UK's purchasing power on the world stage.

Existing industries leaving the UK.

Future businesses thinking of locating in the UK changing plans. Unless ofcourse you are Amazon, Google or FB and simply don't want to pay any tax and employ low end low skill personnel.

What have Brexiteers delivered thus far? Who believes in their promises to deliver global bi-lateral deals that's going to make us better than what we have now?


Undermine national interest indeed! LOL
 

barjon

Legendary member
10,309 1,566
And by their actions, they have collectively undermined the UK national interest whilst handing the initiative to the EU to maintain their hard ball stance.

So when Brexiters use the words, " traitors and collaborators" to describe those who are undermining the UK Govt position, then they are entirely justified to do so.

At best these MP's are well meaning but totally naive in their methods resulting in unintended consequences. At worst they are willfully and deliberately trying to overturn the referendum result.

Anyway, the UK voting public will not be taken in by any of their shenanigans.
One way or another we will end up at the position that I stated 3 years ago. No Deal, clean break Brexit.
Didn’t hear you saying much about traitors and collaborators describing those who undermined the UK Government position pre Boris.
Yes, you’ve certainly been “no deal” consistent from the get go. Not even a pause for thought given the opposition against it from all sides and the unfolding of events of the sort mentioned by Attila above? Just collateral damage I suppose, let’s hope the damage is not so severe as to confine us to a wheelchair for decades.
 

Signalcalc

Veteren member
3,621 764
When Merkel kills a deal based on keeping NI in the customs union, you can be assured about who runs the EU and why the backstop was confected, no further explanation needed for this monumental waste of time when we could have had a clean break already.

Remoaners just dragging out the inevitable.
 

barjon

Legendary member
10,309 1,566
I see a pub is offering a brexit beer deal that may appeal to you. “tell the staff what you would like and they will serve you something else”
 
  • Like
Reactions: Atilla

ditpip

Newbie
2 0
Nobody said it would be a walk in the park, in the longer term it's got to be a better deal to be out.
Meanwhile, the so called Queen of Scotland cowering in the background can scuttle between Corbyn and the gnomes of Brussels to do her worst.
I find it absolutely outrageous that she should want to split the union - the brave souls of the past who fought for the Union must be turning in their graves.
 

Similar threads


AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

But it's thanks to our sponsors that access to Trade2Win remains free for all. By viewing our ads you help us pay our bills, so please support the site and disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock