Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

Hi Jon,
I'm not blaming the EU as such, merely pointing out that our parliament has not done anything to override Article 50. It's U.K. law that's just been ignored! Mrs. May unilaterally decided to ask the EU for an extension; without consultation (that I'm aware of) with parliament either before or afterwards. The EU gave us until the end of October; doubtless that date will come and go like all the others have. There really is no point in voting on bills and passing them into UK law if they're not going to be acted upon and the Prime Minister of the day can ignore them at her will to suit her own needs and agenda. If she doesn't respect her own laws passed by her own government - why on earth should the rest of us be expected to stick to them?
Tim.

Tim you really need to reflect on your thoughts as they are nothing but your incorrect understanding of what we have been through.

1. Parliament voted to reject leaving the EU without a deal. There were quite a few other propositions put to Parliament where votes were taken but no agreement could be reached. Also remember that TM's Brexit deal got the biggest rejection evar in our lifetime.

2. Mrs May has not unilaterally decided to ask for an extension. The cabinet she leads did so. Based on 1 above, crashing out was not deemed to be a prudent option by Parliament. What else was there to do?

3. PM is not a law maker and she too is bound by UK laws. She was found to be in contempt of Parliament so where you get your facts or how you form your opinions is fascinating. Maybe you should write an article on trading psychology thread on how you assess and reach your conclusions on current events that are going on around you.

 

[barjon]

Hi Jon,
I'm not blaming the EU as such, merely pointing out that our parliament has not done anything to override Article 50. It's U.K. law that's just been ignored! Mrs. May unilaterally decided to ask the EU for an extension; without consultation (that I'm aware of) with parliament either before or afterwards. The EU gave us until the end of October; doubtless that date will come and go like all the others have. There really is no point in voting on bills and passing them into UK law if they're not going to be acted upon and the Prime Minister of the day can ignore them at her will to suit her own needs and agenda. If she doesn't respect her own laws passed by her own government - why on earth should the rest of us be expected to stick to them?
Tim.

Tim
Ok, so “Everyone can see - plain as day - that the 'EU democratic process' trumps our laws and democratic process and that we have to do what Brussels tells us” is not relevant to explaining why we didn’t leave on 29 March?

I certainly understand the frustration and I share your fears about a cobbled together con/lab compromise that will leave us tied into the EU more than May’s deal.

I also see that Matthew Paris is claiming the massive LibDem result in the local elections is a massive Remain vote (well he would wouldn’t he). Building up pressure for a second referendum, maybe (God forbid)? Where would you stand if you had to choose between a May minus deal or staying in?
Jon

 

[Atilla]

So principled opposition is a principle worth upholding? I agree, I will ensure my principled opposition to the EU remains intact

SC I asked you before to nominate your choice of principalled candidates but similar to UKIP Farage and pretty much most of Brexiteers, you seem to rubbish what you see but are unable to offer any alternatives.

I'm sure you championed Boris (who took a full weekend to determine his Brexit stance after initially supporting the EU as being significant to ensuring London maintaining her financial position). Where is he now? Had a few dinners with his dad and Farage didn't he?

Where is Gove? Who said he wouldn't stand for PM position only to stab his partner Boris in the back just after 2 days.

Where is Farage who quit his party just when they and the country needed him most to carry on. Went chasing fame and money to his matey in US, smiling happy days in a golden lift?

Where is Leadsom who remained in cabinet when all her fellow Brexiteers tried to bring TM down agreeing to an abysmal deal costing UK billions to be have some sort of Norway type deal to take instructions and commands from the EU without contributing to how those deals are made?

Farage has already started attacking the HoLords without any alternatives on what to replace it with. UKIP don't want him. You also accused him of trying to destroy UKIP as he left.


You see Brexiteers are always rubbishing what is out there but not really putting anything up for us to appraise or evaluate so one can make an informed decision.


A lot of gas and hot air talking about flights of fancy to nowhere.

 

[timsk]

Hi At',

Tim you really need to reflect on your thoughts as they are nothing but your incorrect understanding of what we have been through.

. . . in your opinion. Many people share the views I've expressed here, it's not original thought on my part.

1. Parliament voted to reject leaving the EU without a deal. There were quite a few other propositions put to Parliament where votes were taken but no agreement could be reached. Also remember that TM's Brexit deal got the biggest rejection evar in our lifetime.

Yes, parliament expressed a preference - but it's not legally binding. That ought to resonate loudly with you of all people. After all, how many times have you repeated on here that the referendum was advisory. Article 50 is the actual law - or at least it's supposed to be.

2. Mrs May has not unilaterally decided to ask for an extension. The cabinet she leads did so. Based on 1 above, crashing out was not deemed to be a prudent option by Parliament. What else was there to do?

May can't promise over and over and over again that we leave on March 29th with or without a deal, pass her commitment into law via Article 50 and then on a whim change her mind even if some (I doubt all) cabinet members agreed to it. If you think this is an acceptable way for government to operate - then I think you'll find you're in the minority.

3. PM is not a law maker and she too is bound by UK laws. She was found to be in contempt of Parliament so where you get your facts or how you form your opinions is fascinating. Maybe you should write an article on trading psychology thread on how you assess and reach your conclusions on current events that are going on around you.

That's my point At'. She can't unilaterally change the law and she can't ignore the law. However, for all intents and purposes that's what she's done. Essentially, all that I've said here and in the last few posts is expressed by Robin Tilbrook and his supporters who are trying to bring a case before the high court stating that legally we've already left the EU on 29th March. You can read about it here: Legal expert’s March 29 Brexit delay challenge deemed ‘STRONG CASE’ in High Court
Tim.

 

[timsk]

Hi Jon,

Ok, so “Everyone can see - plain as day - that the 'EU democratic process' trumps our laws and democratic process and that we have to do what Brussels tells us” is not relevant to explaining why we didn’t leave on 29 March? . . .

Errm, not sure of your point or how to respond??? Hopefully my last post in reply to Atilla clarifies my thinking on this?

. . . I also see that Matthew Paris is claiming the massive LibDem result in the local elections is a massive Remain vote (well he would wouldn’t he). Building up pressure for a second referendum, maybe (God forbid)? Where would you stand if you had to choose between a May minus deal or staying in.

I've long since given up listening to anything Matthew Paris says about Brexit. He's a pleasant enough chap but he's the absolute personification of the 'liberal elite'!

On a 'May minus deal or staying in' I'd probably opt to stay in. But that assumes the binary choice and I had a gun to my head. If that's what we're presented with at a second referendum, I would either boycott the vote or spoil my ballot paper. There is some debate as to which of these two courses of action is the best: something I dearly hope brexiteers from all parties would reach a consensus on ahead of going to the polls.
Tim.

 

[barjon]

Hi Jon,

Errm, not sure of your point or how to respond??? Hopefully my last post in reply to Atilla clarifies my thinking on this?


I've long since given up listening to anything Matthew Paris says about Brexit. He's a pleasant enough chap but he's the absolute personification of the 'liberal elite'!

On a 'May minus deal or staying in' I'd probably opt to stay in. But that assumes the binary choice and I had a gun to my head. If that's what we're presented with at a second referendum, I would either boycott the vote or spoil my ballot paper. There is some debate as to which of these two courses of action is the best: something I dearly hope brexiteers from all parties would reach a consensus on ahead of going to the polls.
Tim.

Just to clarify, you commented in your post about exposing why we hadn’t gone on 29 saying “Everyone can see - plain as day - that the 'EU democratic process' trumps our laws and democratic process and that we have to do what Brussels tells us”. I read that as blaming the EU for not yet going - hence my query. You have said you weren’t blaming them per se. So I was just confirming the the quote “Everyone can see etc” had no relevance to th3 point you were making. Phew!!

 

[Signalcalc]

SC I asked you before to nominate your choice of principalled candidates but similar to UKIP Farage and pretty much most of Brexiteers, you seem to rubbish what you see but are unable to offer any alternatives.

Where is Farage who quit his party just when they and the country needed him most to carry on. Went chasing fame and money to his matey in US, smiling happy days in a golden lift?[

Farage has already started attacking the HoLords without any alternatives on what to replace it with. UKIP don't want him. You also accused him of trying to destroy UKIP as he left.

I don't need to offer anyone but members of the ERG & Farage. Farage will get the job done. I don't think he has swayed from his principles, but I agree with you that he lost some credibility when he moved on from UKIP and discredited UKIP in the process, leaving a gap in the Brexiteer cause at the time, it wasn't good for his former UKIP members for him to do that. However, I am pretty sure he had his reasons to take time out given the previous 25 years campaigning, I think he probably deserved that break.

Now he's back, I'm sure he will campaign Brexit to it's fullest and beyond although he has stated he won't be standing as an MP.

I'm sure you championed Boris (who took a full weekend to determine his Brexit stance after initially supporting the EU as being significant to ensuring London maintaining her financial position). Where is he now? Had a few dinners with his dad and Farage didn't he?

Where is Gove? Who said he wouldn't stand for PM position only to stab his partner Boris in the back just after 2 days.

Where is Leadsom who remained in cabinet when all her fellow Brexiteers tried to bring TM down agreeing to an abysmal deal costing UK billions to be have some sort of Norway type deal to take instructions and commands from the EU without contributing to how those deals are made?

I have never championed anyone in the Tories, however I think most members of the ERG are the most principled of the Brexiteers, I see Pat Cash as being one of the most vocal. In fact those members of the ERG are probably THE most principled MPs between Tory and Labour.

You see Brexiteers are always rubbishing what is out there but not really putting anything up for us to appraise or evaluate so one can make an informed decision.

A lot of gas and hot air talking about flights of fancy to nowhere.

I'm not sure, without an example, what you are referring to, have you got anything I can respond to specifically?

 

[counter_violent]

https://www.westmonster.com/60-of-leave-voters-now-backing-the-brexit-party-yougov-find/

Brexit Party policy as far as I understand it is to leave with No Deal on WTO terms.
Bear in mind that 60% of leave voters intend to vote for the Brexit Party. That number will probably rise now that voters have the wind in their sails.

Woe betide the LabCon stitcher uppers if they attempt something before the EU elections. I predict absolute chaos if they try any kind of stitch up deal.

 

[Signalcalc]

Woe betide the LabCon stitcher uppers if they attempt something before the EU elections. I predict absolute chaos if they try any kind of stitch up deal.

I agree, but what kind of chaos are we talking about, from within parliament, outside, or both! HoC still has to agree to the stitch-up and the EU also need to agree. What tweaks can they make to get a majority vote to go back to the EU with, seems to be a massive gamble at this stage. Given that no-one appears able to get rid of May, it would appear to be an impossibility to bring forward a General Election.

I doubt the EU would have agreed to Oct 31 if they thought that the EU elections were a real threat, however, the establishment have miscalculated at every turn so far, unless the courts decide that we are in fact already legally out of the EU, but then given the cover-up related to Gav Williamson, anything is possible with these turncoats, including a turncoat judiciary.

Anti-democracy rules, the rule of law is actively being applied unequally across different elements of society, a LabCon stitch-up will undoubtably cause unrest at all levels, big gambles, big risks, margin calls and uncle points to be reached no doubt.

 

[Atilla]

Reflecting on past couple of days I think two positions are crystalising.

All in or all out on WTO.

This ConLab stitch up for some naff middle of the road deal will fall flat imo.

If any compromised deal is made, it will not be as good as the one we currently have meaning we follow EU directives whilst not having any say on how they are made. Similarlary, Brexiteers will be bound by rules they campaigned against and can make the argument they could not deliver because their vision of a total exit was thwarted.

Thus, I feel MEP elections likely to be essentially between LibDems and Farages Brexit party.

Cons and Labs shifting to the fringes; irrelevant party status.


I very much would like to see new elections take place to sort out this mess. MEPs like local council elections will only be another proxy to sentiment.

 

[Signalcalc]

I very much would like to see new elections take place to sort out this mess. MEPs like local council elections will only be another proxy to sentiment.

The people’s vote on the 23rd May will sort this mess out, parliament doesn’t need to establish a confirmatory ballot, the 23rd of May will provide the answer.

Not quite sure why the Libdems are still campaigning for a people’s vote when we have one in a couple of weeks anyway!

 

[Signalcalc]

John McDonald on Marr this morning has no trust in the Prime Minister after she has leaked details of the compromise agreement regarding the customs union concoction they might be fudging together.

All the signs are that Labcon fudge won’t be agreed before the 23rd May people’s vote.

 

[Atilla]

Botched up middle of the road deal will not answer any of the questions country faces. Just more of the same uncertainty and continued eurosceptic bodies causi

I don't need to offer anyone but members of the ERG & Farage. Farage will get the job done. I don't think he has swayed from his principles, but I agree with you that he lost some credibility when he moved on from UKIP and discredited UKIP in the process, leaving a gap in the Brexiteer cause at the time, it wasn't good for his former UKIP members for him to do that. However, I am pretty sure he had his reasons to take time out given the previous 25 years campaigning, I think he probably deserved that break.

Now he's back, I'm sure he will campaign Brexit to it's fullest and beyond although he has stated he won't be standing as an MP.



I have never championed anyone in the Tories, however I think most members of the ERG are the most principled of the Brexiteers, I see Pat Cash as being one of the most vocal. In fact those members of the ERG are probably THE most principled MPs between Tory and Labour.



I'm not sure, without an example, what you are referring to, have you got anything I can respond to specifically?

Brexiteers position is to leave without a deal and default to WTO rules.

Parliament has rejected leaving without a deal.


European Research Group - 21 MPs are the ones shouting most loudly about democracy. It's as one person on LBC put it, much like a hair on a dogs tail trying to wag the dog. They've whipped up the British public into believing their tosh without an alternative. WTO is not an alternative. It's the absence of anything but alternatives or options.

Leaving EU and trying to replace trading block with CommonWealth nations is about a daft a plan as one might imagine coming from Brexit party who favoured Norwegian / Swiss models before the vote and for some reason has now dropped it.

Nice plans. So what is the road map for the UK post Brexit assuming it occurs? Once again the onus is on the Brexiteers to come up with those alternative options having promised how wonderful trading with the rest of the World will be once we leave.


We are going around in circles.

 

[counter_violent]

Davis backs Raab. So do I.

https://www.westmonster.com/82-of-tory-members-want-may-to-resign-according-to-survey1/

 

[Signalcalc]

Nice plans. So what is the road map for the UK post Brexit assuming it occurs?

Hopefully *oblivion for the liblabcons