Brexit and the Consequences

Atilla

Legendary member
18,838 2,631
Fair assessment SC.

I've always considered the LibDem message to be on the nail and in UK interest. Many politicians jumped on the Brexit band wagon of popularity but much like a fad it's a candle burning it self out.

It's hard to hold on to ones ethics and principals against popularism so to speak but very happy with them.

I think Tories are the root cause of our issues in trying to maintain power hence the referendum to squash UKIP and Labour trying to be all things to all people lacking a clear message as you rightly point out.

Also, concur about EU elections where the message is a little more difficult to send as mass public don't understand how EU operates. I do hope the remain bodies take the MEP elections as an opportunity to largely educate the mass British public about EU democratic process.


(y)
 

Signalcalc

Senior member
3,149 668
Will have to do some more
Fair assessment SC.

I've always considered the LibDem message to be on the nail and in UK interest. Many politicians jumped on the Brexit band wagon of popularity but much like a fad it's a candle burning it self out.

It's hard to hold on to ones ethics and principals against popularism so to speak but very happy with them.

I think Tories are the root cause of our issues in trying to maintain power hence the referendum to squash UKIP and Labour trying to be all things to all people lacking a clear message as you rightly point out.

Also, concur about EU elections where the message is a little more difficult to send as mass public don't understand how EU operates. I do hope the remain bodies take the MEP elections as an opportunity to largely educate the mass British public about EU democratic process.


(y)
Sorry Att, having difficulty deciphering your post, I can't make head nor tail of what you are saying, just seems a mixed up jumble of words trying to get a message out, but not reaching the brain cells, are you sure you didn't vote Tory or Labour or have you been on the pop celebrating all day o_Oo_O
 
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Atilla

Legendary member
18,838 2,631
Will have to do some more


Sorry Att, having difficulty deciphering your post, I can't make head nor tail of what you are saying, just seems a mixed up jumble of words trying to get a message out, but not reaching the brain cells, are you sure you didn't vote Tory or Labour or have you been on the pop celebrating all day o_Oo_O
Que? :unsure:
 

timsk

Legendary member
6,954 1,816
. . . I do hope the remain bodies take the MEP elections as an opportunity to largely educate the mass British public about EU democratic process.
When you say 'educate', I presume you mean lie! :LOL:
This would be a foolish thing to try and do as the very deep hole they're already in will just get deeper. However, if you/they insist upon trying, a good starting point will be to explain why we haven't already left the EU on March 29th. After all, that date was - and remains - enshrined in U.K. law, as Article 50 has neither been repealed nor superseded. Everyone can see - plain as day - that the 'EU democratic process' trumps our laws and democratic process and that we have to do what Brussels tells us. The growing problem for remoaners is that ordinary level headed remainers (who form the majority of those who voted remain in 2016) can see for themselves what it is that brexiteers were carping on about prior to the referendum. They may not have accepted it or believed it back then but, with all that's happened since, they now know, understand and accept fully that leavers have legitimate concerns about just how undemocratic the EU really is. So At', good luck with brainwashing - oops, I mean educating the British public - you're gonna need it.
Tim.
 

Signalcalc

Senior member
3,149 668
Fair assessment SC.

Many politicians jumped on the Brexit band wagon of popularity but much like a fad it's a candle burning it self out.
Not sure what you mean, looks like most politicians were and remain remainers to me? I don't see a fad either, I see more entrenched positions on both sides and it aint going away, no matter how much remainers wish it to.

It's hard to hold on to ones ethics and principals against popularism so to speak but very happy with them.
Why is it hard to hold on to ethics and principals, who are you talking about? But you're happy with what, ethics and principals or the people holding them (and who are these people anyway?)

I think Tories are the root cause of our issues in trying to maintain power hence the referendum to squash UKIP and Labour trying to be all things to all people lacking a clear message as you rightly point out.
What referendum to squash UKIP ? I don't think Labour are trying to do anything other than force a general election and take power, doesn't look likely to happen now though.

Also, concur about EU elections where the message is a little more difficult to send as mass public don't understand how EU operates. I do hope the remain bodies take the MEP elections as an opportunity to largely educate the mass British public about EU democratic process.
Timsk has answered this one and I agree, if remainers haven't realised after 3 years what is really going on with the EU and understand the leavers position then I'm afraid they never will, either through choice, ignorance or just bloody mindedness.

I'm not having a go, just trying to work out some of your statements, now I'm reaching for a bottle of beer, it's Friday night, cheers 🍺🍻🍻
 

barjon

Legendary member
10,239 1,542
When you say 'educate', I presume you mean lie! :LOL:
This would be a foolish thing to try and do as the very deep hole they're already in will just get deeper. However, if you/they insist upon trying, a good starting point will be to explain why we haven't already left the EU on March 29th. After all, that date was - and remains - enshrined in U.K. law, as Article 50 has neither been repealed nor superseded. Everyone can see - plain as day - that the 'EU democratic process' trumps our laws and democratic process and that we have to do what Brussels tells us. The growing problem for remoaners is that ordinary level headed remainers (who form the majority of those who voted remain in 2016) can see for themselves what it is that brexiteers were carping on about prior to the referendum. They may not have accepted it or believed it back then but, with all that's happened since, they now know, understand and accept fully that leavers have legitimate concerns about just how undemocratic the EU really is. So At', good luck with brainwashing - oops, I mean educating the British public - you're gonna need it.
Tim.
Tim,

If I’m reading you right you seem to be blaming the EU for us not leaving on 29th March ? The leaving date was enshrined in OUR law (by US) and it is WE who asked them for an extension to the date, they didn’t tell us to do it. That we haven’t gone yet is down to the chaos in OUR parliament, not the EU’s processes.

Be patient, though. We will be off, albeit with a worse deal than we could have had if the hard line brexiteers hadn’t been busy firing their guns into their own feet.

Cheers

Jon
 
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counter_violent

Legendary member
9,540 2,416
Tim,

If I’m reading you right you seem to be blaming the EU for us not leaving on 29th March ? The leaving date was enshrined in OUR law (by US) and it is WE who asked them for an extension to the date, they didn’t tell us to do it. That we haven’t gone yet is down to the chaos in OUR parliament, not the EU’s processes.

Be patient, though. We will be off, albeit with a worse deal than we could have had if the hard line brexiteers hadn’t been busy firing their guns into their own feet.

Cheers

Jon
No Deal will be perfect for us actually and extremely bad for the EU. Although, you didn't mean that kind of deal.:LOL:
What you meant was some cobbled together LabCon fudge that will be worse than May's thrice rejected bad deal.

How long will it take for everyone to wake up to the fact that we will be leaving with No Deal. The voting public will force the position as explained by Signalcalc and Timsk.
 

barjon

Legendary member
10,239 1,542
No Deal will be perfect for us actually and extremely bad for the EU. Although, you didn't mean that kind of deal.:LOL:
What you meant was some cobbled together LabCon fudge that will be worse than May's thrice rejected bad deal.

How long will it take for everyone to wake up to the fact that we will be leaving with No Deal. The voting public will force the position as explained by Signalcalc and Timsk.
:) I’m with Tim and his “dead cert” view of a Con/Lab compromise. About the only think parliament agrees about is that “no deal” is a bad thing so I think you’re kicking against the pricks a bit. As Tim says, both the major parties are under strong pressure to cook up an agreement since, to judge from yesterday’s locals, they both have reason to fear a general election.
 

Atilla

Legendary member
18,838 2,631
Not sure what you mean, looks like most politicians were and remain remainers to me? I don't see a fad either, I see more entrenched positions on both sides and it aint going away, no matter how much remainers wish it to.



Why is it hard to hold on to ethics and principals, who are you talking about? But you're happy with what, ethics and principals or the people holding them (and who are these people anyway?)



What referendum to squash UKIP ? I don't think Labour are trying to do anything other than force a general election and take power, doesn't look likely to happen now though.



Timsk has answered this one and I agree, if remainers haven't realised after 3 years what is really going on with the EU and understand the leavers position then I'm afraid they never will, either through choice, ignorance or just bloody mindedness.

I'm not having a go, just trying to work out some of your statements, now I'm reaching for a bottle of beer, it's Friday night, cheers 🍺🍻🍻
Not sure what you mean, looks like most politicians were and remain remainers to me? I don't see a fad either, I see more entrenched positions on both sides and it aint going away, no matter how much remainers wish it to.



Why is it hard to hold on to ethics and principals, who are you talking about? But you're happy with what, ethics and principals or the people holding them (and who are these people anyway?)



What referendum to squash UKIP ? I don't think Labour are trying to do anything other than force a general election and take power, doesn't look likely to happen now though.



Timsk has answered this one and I agree, if remainers haven't realised after 3 years what is really going on with the EU and understand the leavers position then I'm afraid they never will, either through choice, ignorance or just bloody mindedness.

I'm not having a go, just trying to work out some of your statements, now I'm reaching for a bottle of beer, it's Friday night, cheers 🍺🍻🍻
Hi SC, you are right and increasingly I think I have a brain condition unable to write what I'm thinking. I think it's to do with speed of thought and typing unable to keep up sort of thing but I do read back and wonder what I was on? :)

Ok here goes. Take II.

Point 1. Originally when TM first came in as the elected PM, she was flying high in the polls and Tories all mighty on all their red lines and how they would deliver on the referendum. Power can be intoxicating. There were few remainers and it was almost not fashionable to be remainers. Their was much talk of we've had the vote let's get on with it, without really thinking about the planning the how or the consequences. LibDems were the only party to hold the line. Not to cave in. Continue with due process of working through Parliament. There were calls for unity and TM to get Parliament and other parties involved but the Tories typically full of them selves, ignored all reasonable and rational calls. Article 50 got invoked far too quickly without due diligence on the what, how, when, where. No BIA or white paper or any plans even on strategy for negotiations on UK position or what she wanted. There was sooooo much hype and tosh, which summarised pretty much Brexiteers position. Of course there was the NI border which wasn't even considered either. Made UK government look like a fool. All bluster and no substance.

Even the Brexiteers have changed their position now. As before much like fly hitting your windscreen at 70mph, Brexiteers derear engaged their brain soon after invoking article 50.

With respect to ethics and principals do you think TM has any? Lost count amount of times she's shifted position. Number of cabinet ministers who have resigned. The way she has undermined her own ministers. Same goes for Labour. Corbyn supposed to be man of principal but who really knows much like TM what his position on Brexit is? A mystery.

Third point about the reason why Cameron called the referendum. Purely to maintain tory power because UKIP was eating into their support base. Cameron or the Tories weren't in a dilemma about EU. Their worry was losing power to Labour because their MPs and supporters were defecting to UKIP. As before EU was not an issue to most of British public. Local and National issues far more important.

Fourth point about educating the masses about how EU works is really for Brexiteers who say system is undemocratic. Remainers know they are represented and happy with EU and UK's position and role in the EU. It is the Brexiteers who need to know why we are holding MEP elections so they can understand each country is represented and they get to vote the MEPs of their choice in. Elected MEPs the people choose have the power to vote on legislation whether to pass them or not. Elected MEPs chosen by the people once every five years, hold the European Commission to account.

I so hope LibDems make a come back. In fact along with the independents they are UK's only reasonable hope to get us out of this mess.

(y)
 

Signalcalc

Senior member
3,149 668
Hi SC, you are right and increasingly I think I have a brain condition unable to write what I'm thinking. I think it's to do with speed of thought and typing unable to keep up sort of thing but I do read back and wonder what I was on? :)

Ok here goes. Take II.

Point 1. Originally when TM first came in as the elected PM, she was flying high in the polls and Tories all mighty on all their red lines and how they would deliver on the referendum. Power can be intoxicating. There were few remainers and it was almost not fashionable to be remainers. Their was much talk of we've had the vote let's get on with it, without really thinking about the planning the how or the consequences. LibDems were the only party to hold the line. Not to cave in. Continue with due process of working through Parliament. There were calls for unity and TM to get Parliament and other parties involved but the Tories typically full of them selves, ignored all reasonable and rational calls. Article 50 got invoked far too quickly without due diligence on the what, how, when, where. No BIA or white paper or any plans even on strategy for negotiations on UK position or what she wanted. There was sooooo much hype and tosh, which summarised pretty much Brexiteers position. Of course there was the NI border which wasn't even considered either. Made UK government look like a fool. All bluster and no substance.

Even the Brexiteers have changed their position now. As before much like fly hitting your windscreen at 70mph, Brexiteers derear engaged their brain soon after invoking article 50.

With respect to ethics and principals do you think TM has any? Lost count amount of times she's shifted position. Number of cabinet ministers who have resigned. The way she has undermined her own ministers. Same goes for Labour. Corbyn supposed to be man of principal but who really knows much like TM what his position on Brexit is? A mystery.

Third point about the reason why Cameron called the referendum. Purely to maintain tory power because UKIP was eating into their support base. Cameron or the Tories weren't in a dilemma about EU. Their worry was losing power to Labour because their MPs and supporters were defecting to UKIP. As before EU was not an issue to most of British public. Local and National issues far more important.

Fourth point about educating the masses about how EU works is really for Brexiteers who say system is undemocratic. Remainers know they are represented and happy with EU and UK's position and role in the EU. It is the Brexiteers who need to know why we are holding MEP elections so they can understand each country is represented and they get to vote the MEPs of their choice in. Elected MEPs the people choose have the power to vote on legislation whether to pass them or not. Elected MEPs chosen by the people once every five years, hold the European Commission to account.

I so hope LibDems make a come back. In fact along with the independents they are UK's only reasonable hope to get us out of this mess.

(y)
So principled opposition is a principle worth upholding? I agree, I will ensure my principled opposition to the EU remains intact (y):arrowr:
 

Signalcalc

Senior member
3,149 668
Fourth point about educating the masses about how EU works is really for Brexiteers who say system is undemocratic. Remainers know they are represented and happy with EU and UK's position and role in the EU. It is the Brexiteers who need to know why we are holding MEP elections so they can understand each country is represented and they get to vote the MEPs of their choice in. Elected MEPs the people choose have the power to vote on legislation whether to pass them or not. Elected MEPs chosen by the people once every five years, hold the European Commission to account.
(y)
Yes let's educate Brexiteers a little more beyond what they already know about the undemocratic EU and the level of treason that the Theresa May govt is involved in.

 

timsk

Legendary member
6,954 1,816
Tim,

If I’m reading you right you seem to be blaming the EU for us not leaving on 29th March ? The leaving date was enshrined in OUR law (by US) and it is WE who asked them for an extension to the date, they didn’t tell us to do it. That we haven’t gone yet is down to the chaos in OUR parliament, not the EU’s processes.

Be patient, though. We will be off, albeit with a worse deal than we could have had if the hard line brexiteers hadn’t been busy firing their guns into their own feet.

Cheers

Jon
Hi Jon,
I'm not blaming the EU as such, merely pointing out that our parliament has not done anything to override Article 50. It's U.K. law that's just been ignored! Mrs. May unilaterally decided to ask the EU for an extension; without consultation (that I'm aware of) with parliament either before or afterwards. The EU gave us until the end of October; doubtless that date will come and go like all the others have. There really is no point in voting on bills and passing them into UK law if they're not going to be acted upon and the Prime Minister of the day can ignore them at her will to suit her own needs and agenda. If she doesn't respect her own laws passed by her own government - why on earth should the rest of us be expected to stick to them?
Tim.
 

Atilla

Legendary member
18,838 2,631
Hi Jon,
I'm not blaming the EU as such, merely pointing out that our parliament has not done anything to override Article 50. It's U.K. law that's just been ignored! Mrs. May unilaterally decided to ask the EU for an extension; without consultation (that I'm aware of) with parliament either before or afterwards. The EU gave us until the end of October; doubtless that date will come and go like all the others have. There really is no point in voting on bills and passing them into UK law if they're not going to be acted upon and the Prime Minister of the day can ignore them at her will to suit her own needs and agenda. If she doesn't respect her own laws passed by her own government - why on earth should the rest of us be expected to stick to them?
Tim.
Tim you really need to reflect on your thoughts as they are nothing but your incorrect understanding of what we have been through.

1. Parliament voted to reject leaving the EU without a deal. There were quite a few other propositions put to Parliament where votes were taken but no agreement could be reached. Also remember that TM's Brexit deal got the biggest rejection evar in our lifetime.

2. Mrs May has not unilaterally decided to ask for an extension. The cabinet she leads did so. Based on 1 above, crashing out was not deemed to be a prudent option by Parliament. What else was there to do?

3. PM is not a law maker and she too is bound by UK laws. She was found to be in contempt of Parliament so where you get your facts or how you form your opinions is fascinating. Maybe you should write an article on trading psychology thread on how you assess and reach your conclusions on current events that are going on around you.

(y)
 
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barjon

Legendary member
10,239 1,542
Hi Jon,
I'm not blaming the EU as such, merely pointing out that our parliament has not done anything to override Article 50. It's U.K. law that's just been ignored! Mrs. May unilaterally decided to ask the EU for an extension; without consultation (that I'm aware of) with parliament either before or afterwards. The EU gave us until the end of October; doubtless that date will come and go like all the others have. There really is no point in voting on bills and passing them into UK law if they're not going to be acted upon and the Prime Minister of the day can ignore them at her will to suit her own needs and agenda. If she doesn't respect her own laws passed by her own government - why on earth should the rest of us be expected to stick to them?
Tim.
Tim
Ok, so “Everyone can see - plain as day - that the 'EU democratic process' trumps our laws and democratic process and that we have to do what Brussels tells us” is not relevant to explaining why we didn’t leave on 29 March?

I certainly understand the frustration and I share your fears about a cobbled together con/lab compromise that will leave us tied into the EU more than May’s deal.

I also see that Matthew Paris is claiming the massive LibDem result in the local elections is a massive Remain vote (well he would wouldn’t he). Building up pressure for a second referendum, maybe (God forbid)? Where would you stand if you had to choose between a May minus deal or staying in?
Jon