Brexit and the Consequences

barjon

Legendary member
10,335 1,574
Hi At',

If you're merely having a laugh and trying to be provocative - very good! However, if by some impossibly slim chance you actually believe there's even a grain of truth in what you say, then it's logical to conclude that you also believe that parliament is designed not to work. Just about everyone accepts - be they on the left or on the right, remainers or leavers - that our political system is well and truly broken.


If, by "experts who claim to be champions of democracy" you mean leavers who are a tad miffed that we haven't left yet - then yes, it's fair to say we don't like the results. However, imagine that I promised time and time again to do something for you that's really important to you and, even, created a legally binding contract to ensure that I didn't renege on my promise - yet I still managed to wriggle out of my commitment to you - then I put it to you that you wouldn't just say 'oh well, never mind, that's the way democratic cookie crumbles sometimes'. You'd be fekkin livid! ;-)
Tim.
Our political system is certainly in disarray at the moment - mainly as a result of a minority government and virtually non-existent leadership - but it’s far from broken imo.

So far as broken promises are concerned, as I recall “leave” was always associated with some sort of deal even by the most ardent brexiteers - cv excepted maybe :D - which implied a continuing relationship of one sort or another. Thus, the “promise” was never spelled out in contractural terms and fifty different people probably had fifty different interpretations of what “leave” meant.

May can quite rightly claim that her deal delivers “leave” in many key aspects, albeit not far enough for you and many others (although still too far for others). It also came about from long and tortuous negotiations and I’d be very surprised if it could be improved upon with the EU however much people might wish it. No deal is generally accepted as a bad outcome - that cv exception again:) - and it would be a shame if we were driven to it by default.
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,086 1,879
Parliament is working as designed.
TM cabinet found to be in contempt of Parliament but that's because the system is broken.
At',
I don't know how you define 'being off one's rocker', but accusing me of same simply because I ask MPs to remember that they serve us and not the other way around and to act honourably and with integrity - strikes me as being harsh. And that's all I've ever done. Moreover, I would say exactly the same had the referendum result been reversed and the political elite were determined to overrule the electorate and take us out anyway.

One of the difficulties in debating this issue with you is that your argument has more holes in it than the proverbial sieve. For example, take the quotes above where you say one thing in one post and then completely contradict yourself in the next. Parliament (the political system) is either working as it should or it's broken and is failing us all badly. You can't have it both ways!
Tim.
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,086 1,879
Our political system is certainly in disarray at the moment - mainly as a result of a minority government and virtually non-existent leadership - but it’s far from broken imo. . .
Hi Jon,
As an attempt to cherry pick a few events from the last three years to suit your narrative of wanting to stay in the EU and to convince yourself and fellow remainers that us brexiteers have little to bleat about - I'll score this 5/10. But make no mistake, that's all you're doing. All leave voters know it and, increasingly, many remain voters know it too. In your heart of hearts, I think you know that something has gone very, very wrong and, if you were as passionate a leaver instead of passionate remainer - you'd feel much like Brexiteers do.
Tim.
 

barjon

Legendary member
10,335 1,574
Hi Jon,
As an attempt to cherry pick a few events from the last three years to suit your narrative of wanting to stay in the EU and to convince yourself and fellow remainers that us brexiteers have little to bleat about - I'll score this 5/10. But make no mistake, that's all you're doing. All leave voters know it and, increasingly, many remain voters know it too. In your heart of hearts, I think you know that something has gone very, very wrong and, if you were as passionate a leaver instead of passionate remainer - you'd feel much like Brexiteers do.
Tim.
Mmm, well I wanted to stay in but the vote was to leave, so be it. Whatever “leave” means I don’t want it to be more damaging to us than it should be merely because politicians cannot agree on the terms of the divorce.

I did not wish to suggest brexiteers had nothing to bleat about, merely that the volume of bleating ranged from little more than a frustrated murmur to a deafening cacophony depending individual definitions of “leave” and its encompassing deal (or not).
 

Signalcalc

Veteren member
3,848 815
The vote to leave wasn’t conditional on anything, that’s a major source of leavers frustration.

The second major source of frustration is the attempt to keep us in and overturn the result.

The third major source is the anti-democratic process that parliament has adopted.

The fourth is that we haven’t yet left. There has been ample time and numerous attempts to negotiate a deal, that process cannot be concluded satisfactorily, therefore we should have just left on 29 March.

It would have been much easier for all involved if we were out already, as it is, the establishment and the EU look like they are about to shaft themselves at the ballot box as a result of not leaving and going about it in an anti-democratic manner.

Are we about to usher in a new era of politics as a result of all this, most leavers are hoping so!
 

Atilla

Legendary member
19,055 2,686
At',
I don't know how you define 'being off one's rocker', but accusing me of same simply because I ask MPs to remember that they serve us and not the other way around and to act honourably and with integrity - strikes me as being harsh. And that's all I've ever done. Moreover, I would say exactly the same had the referendum result been reversed and the political elite were determined to overrule the electorate and take us out anyway.

One of the difficulties in debating this issue with you is that your argument has more holes in it than the proverbial sieve. For example, take the quotes above where you say one thing in one post and then completely contradict yourself in the next. Parliament (the political system) is either working as it should or it's broken and is failing us all badly. You can't have it both ways!
Tim.
That's me trying to be sarcastic about you suggesting democracy is broken. Was in a rush so not well written.

Once again just because Cameron madepromises he couldn't deliver doesn't mean it becomes law.

Just because MPs past article 50 in haste in power grabs without any plans or due considerations doesn't mean it is legit as the high court ruled.

All you upright democracy experts need to get your heads out of dark places and understand Parliament is sovereign and needs numbers to add up.

Especially on an ill thought out, advisory referendum called for personal and political reasons.
 

Atilla

Legendary member
19,055 2,686
Parliament has never been democratic, it took a public referendum to show it for what it is.

The third major source is the anti-democratic process that parliament has adopted.
OMG all the democracy experts are on the Brexit thread.

Yay! :love:
 

counter_violent

Legendary member
9,727 2,492
Political desperation phase.
https://www.westmonster.com/may-moving-towards-eu-customs-union-deal-with-labour1/

The public can see right through all this nonsense and I expect they will deliver their verdict at the upcoming EU elections.
https://www.oddschecker.com/insight/politics/20190418-brexit-party-odds-on-favourites-for-european-elections-following-poll-results


Looking further out. I expect a good number of our existing inept MP's will be booted out, never to be heard from again.

Farage and co will need to maintain momentum and flesh out policy for their manifesto offering. Simple, clear message should be enough and build from there.
 

Atilla

Legendary member
19,055 2,686
Political desperation phase.
https://www.westmonster.com/may-moving-towards-eu-customs-union-deal-with-labour1/

The public can see right through all this nonsense and I expect they will deliver their verdict at the upcoming EU elections.
https://www.oddschecker.com/insight/politics/20190418-brexit-party-odds-on-favourites-for-european-elections-following-poll-results


Looking further out. I expect a good number of our existing inept MP's will be booted out, never to be heard from again.

Farage and co will need to maintain momentum and flesh out policy for their manifesto offering. Simple, clear message should be enough and build from there.
They'll be lucky to get 30% imo, which represents the Brexit vote.

Hardly a majority.

Time will tell. :geek:
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,086 1,879
The public can see right through all this nonsense and I expect they will deliver their verdict at the upcoming EU elections.
Hi c_v,
" . . .With no end to the Brexit saga in sight, it looks increasingly unlikely that Theresa May will be able to prevent the European elections from taking place. . ."
Both you and the article you linked to think that we'll be participating in these elections. Sorry to be all negative - Mr. Doom 'n Gloom, but I seriously doubt they'll happen. Because the outcome is almost a dead cert', it's in the interests of both the Tories and Labour to come to an compromise that the HoC can agree to which will prevent the elections from taking place. When both the main parties are united by such a powerful motive, it's hard (for me at least) to imagine that it won't happen. Don't get me wrong, I'd love the elections to take place so I can vote for Ann Widdecombe - something as recently as a year ago I'd have said would never, ever, happen!
Tim.

Edit:
Went to vote in the local elections just after I posted this and had a chat with the officials at the polling station about the forthcoming European elections. Apparently, they can be cancelled as late as the day before - literally hours before polling is due to start. So, May and Corbyn have the best part of three weeks to sort their poop out.
 
Last edited:

Atilla

Legendary member
19,055 2,686
Hi c_v,
" . . .With no end to the Brexit saga in sight, it looks increasingly unlikely that Theresa May will be able to prevent the European elections from taking place. . ."
Both you and the article you linked to think that we'll be participating in these elections. Sorry to be all negative - Mr. Doom 'n Gloom, but I seriously doubt they'll happen. Because the outcome is almost a dead cert', it's in the interests of both the Tories and Labour to come to an compromise that the HoC can agree to which will prevent the elections from taking place. When both the main parties are united by such a powerful motive, it's hard (for me at least) to imagine that it won't happen. Don't get me wrong, I'd love the elections to take place so I can vote for Ann Widdecombe - something as recently as a year ago I'd have said would never, ever, happen!
Tim.

Edit:
Went to vote in the local elections just after I posted this and had a chat with the officials at the polling station about the forthcoming European elections. Apparently, they can be cancelled as late as the day before - literally hours before polling is due to start. So, May and Corbyn have the best part of three weeks to sort their poop out.

Who is/are HoC? Why is their agreement important?
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,086 1,879
Who is/are HoC? Why is their agreement important?
Hi At',
HoC = House of Commons.

For EU elections to be avoided, parliament has to pass whatever withdrawal agreement the Tories and Labour concoct - assuming they come up with something. I'm saying they definitely will - and they've got until May 22nd to do it. These talks will produce something - because they absolutely have to - as EU elections, if contested, would be a mega car crash for both main parties. Once the negotiating teams agree terms, regardless of how unpalatable they are for either party, then voting the deal through the HoC will be a rubber stamp affair. The only real question is how much worse the Con/Lab deal will be than Mrs. May's existing pants deal.
Tim.
 
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