Brexit and the Consequences

[counter_violent]

[QUOTE="Atilla Democracy starts and ends with Brexit for you and nothing else.
Take back control and give it to who?[/QUOTE]


Taking back control means dismantling the centralised power structure that they have been building for themselves. Leaving the EU removes just one layer. We are not taking back control to give it to anyone. The power returns to people and you have to remember, that power is only lent to our elected representatives. If they cock up our abuse the power, then we have the power to kick them out and elect another. Removing power from the unelected EU is a very good start in the reversal process. After we have left, we can then start on our own politicians. I've been saying over and over, that our current crop are the worst in living memory and this is because they have always had a higher power to defer to in order that they can absolve themselves from any blame. This has to stop straight away and for all those not up to the job, they need weeding out and replacing with better quality representatives. The only way to redress this direness is to make them accountable. No hiding place. Leaving the EU goes some small way to dealing with this issue.

 

[Signalcalc]

Timsk has correctly identified the important issue that goes beyond Brexit namely: democracy. We can argue for ever the pros and cons of Brexit but the one issue that has come to the fore, is the Establishment Principals who think they morally own and run the country (and probably do). They believe it is quite acceptable to subvert and if possible override the democratic vote. Their self-importance and superior intellect allows them to think that it doesn't matter whether the people were "right or wrong" or if the electorate was "too stupid" to know what it was doing. They just don't get it: there was a vote and the result was perfectly clear.

The hypocrisy of our governing classes has now been totally exposed and the ordinary peasantarati like myself will not forget it. It matters not now, that Theresa May has shown herself to be incompetent and duplicitous and has wasted 2 and half years to achieve virtually nothing – that's all water under the bridge and is no longer worth worrying about. She will eventually go. If we don't leave and end up with BRINO (Brexit in name only) there will spring up new anti-establishment parties (Nigel springs to mind – he's the waiting in the wings) that will I suspect change UK politics for ever – and possibly not for the best. Perhaps we will end up with numerous small parties for ever trying to forge coalitions and achieving little – that's how it seems to work in some parts of Europe.

Judging the public mood as far as I can see, I think many many people are more concerned with the issue of democracy than whether we trade with/without a Backstop/WTO/Customs union. The once great Labour Party took leave of its senses when it put Corbyn on the leadership ballot paper and is now well on the way to being irrelevant.

What a mess!

Ah, and so we find ourselves stuck with illusion of democracy, the definition of which escapes me.

 

[0007]

When it comes to democracy and who wields the power, Tony Benn was bang to rights with his 5 principles:

1. “What power have you got?”
2. “Where did you get it from?”
3. “In whose interests do you use it?”
4. “To whom are you accountable?”
5. “How do we get rid of you?”

Asking those questions of the EU is quite enlightening – especially No. 5 !

 

[Atilla]

[QUOTE="Atilla Democracy starts and ends with Brexit for you and nothing else.
Take back control and give it to who?


Taking back control means dismantling the centralised power structure that they have been building for themselves. Leaving the EU removes just one layer. We are not taking back control to give it to anyone. The power returns to people and you have to remember, that power is only lent to our elected representatives. If they cock up our abuse the power, then we have the power to kick them out and elect another. Removing power from the unelected EU is a very good start in the reversal process. After we have left, we can then start on our own politicians. I've been saying over and over, that our current crop are the worst in living memory and this is because they have always had a higher power to defer to in order that they can absolve themselves from any blame. This has to stop straight away and for all those not up to the job, they need weeding out and replacing with better quality representatives. The only way to redress this direness is to make them accountable. No hiding place. Leaving the EU goes some small way to dealing with this issue.

Do you mean giving power back to Parliament?

You are not dismantling EU's centralised power structure no? How so?



You forget people, trade unions and all those who support Labour Party and Corbyn as its leader are the people. However, pretty much most here when they talk about Corbyn and Labour, it's hardly in any positive light but with downright dismal statements about how they will ruin the country. When it comes to Brexiteers or Nigel as some kind of saviours.

From my perspective, Brexiteers and Nigel don't need the Labour party as they have and continue to do a damn good job in the name of democracry - already.

 

[timsk]

Hi Jon,

The point is that you have chosen to accept one side of the evidence as gospel without considering any evidence from the other side. I agree with you that it is unlikely that the two ex ministers would have told downright lies but they also presented their opinions as facts (No10 intentions etc) and would probably have put their own case in the best possible light that they could. Right, they were not sacked but taken over (or, more properly, their work was)

The 'evidence' from the other side (i.e. Mrs. May, Olly Robbins and their cohorts at No. 10) is provided by their actions - or lack thereof - and are plain for all to see. To secretly work on a separate Brexit plan behind the backs of the very ministers and newly formed DExEU department that she set up and to then dismiss their work out of hand and only present them with her alternative (inferior) plan just 5 days before announcing it to cabinet at Chequers is beyond belief. Unprecedented as far as I'm aware. Absolutely staggering. DExEU is just a front - a sham - it has no teeth and no influence. It's merely there to play to the gallery and appease Brexiteers and to give the false impression that leave supporting ministers are spearheading the Brexit negotiations. The SB testimony provided in the YouTube vid's are watertight evidence that this is the case. It's completely unacceptable.

As a little aside, I was staying with my 92 year old aunt at the time when that (in)famous photo was plastered across all front pages of every newspaper showing David Davis with his back to Mrs. May. My dear ol' aunt, who is very 'old school', was appalled by it and I remember her commenting how disrespectful DD was and that that was no way for a serving government minister to behave in front of the PM. Little did she (or anyone) know! With the benefit of hindsight, I'm amazed at how diplomatic DD has been about the whole affair and, even, still has positive things to say about Mrs. May. I can only put that down to his commitment to the Tory party, fearing that if he really vented his spleen and let rip into Mrs. May that it could be the catalyst for a Tory party meltdown. Needless to say, loathe Mrs. May as much as he surely must do, he doesn't want that.

TM is playing a devious game trying to ensure a “no deal” outcome that can be seen as the EU’s fault. Her ministers have seen through her plan, hence rebelling to make sure of a deal. Likely? Not really, but maybe hanging together as well as your conviction that she is playing a dirty game to effectively remain in.

I agree that she's playing a devious game, but I doubt that she wants a no-deal outcome. If she does, then she's quite literally the only remainer in the entire land that wants it!
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

What ever the outcome, Brexiteers can say what they like and dump on everyone around them but reflect on their actions in creating an absolute shed storm when UK was doing so well.

I find it hilarious that self-righteous smart aleks still trumpeting we've had the vote lets get on with it, will of the people tosh.

So we are now moving on from punishment beatings, to what the privileged globalisation elite want, to the establishment and deep state behind the scenes manoeuvres in derailing Brexit because they don't want it for what ever reason?


Who feels Parliament is well managed and under control right now?


No reflection on any of the issues or where we are heading?

 

[0007]

I find it hilarious that self-righteous smart aleks still trumpeting we've had the vote lets get on with it, will of the people tosh.

So the will of the people doesn't count? Try telling that to the people of Venezuela, the post-war inhabitants of Eastern Europe, the un-franchised population of this country not too long ago – to mention just a few examples. Look at history and see what happens under regimes that know best.

 

[barjon]

Hi Jon,

The 'evidence' from the other side (i.e. Mrs. May, Olly Robbins and their cohorts at No. 10) is provided by their actions - or lack thereof - and are plain for all to see. To secretly work on a separate Brexit plan behind the backs of the very ministers and newly formed DExEU department that she set up and to then dismiss their work out of hand and only present them with her alternative (inferior) plan just 5 days before announcing it to cabinet at Chequers is beyond belief. Unprecedented as far as I'm aware. Absolutely staggering. DExEU is just a front - a sham - it has no teeth and no influence. It's merely there to play to the gallery and appease Brexiteers and to give the false impression that leave supporting ministers are spearheading the Brexit negotiations. The SB testimony provided in the YouTube vid's are watertight evidence that this is the case. It's completely unacceptable.

As a little aside, I was staying with my 92 year old aunt at the time when that (in)famous photo was plastered across all front pages of every newspaper showing David Davis with his back to Mrs. May. My dear ol' aunt, who is very 'old school', was appalled by it and I remember her commenting how disrespectful DD was and that that was no way for a serving government minister to behave in front of the PM. Little did she (or anyone) know! With the benefit of hindsight, I'm amazed at how diplomatic DD has been about the whole affair and, even, still has positive things to say about Mrs. May. I can only put that down to his commitment to the Tory party, fearing that if he really vented his spleen and let rip into Mrs. May that it could be the catalyst for a Tory party meltdown. Needless to say, loathe Mrs. May as much as he surely must do, he doesn't want that.


I agree that she's playing a devious game, but I doubt that she wants a no-deal outcome. If she does, then she's quite literally the only remainer in the entire land that wants it!
Tim.

Not much point in continuing since you’re not really listening to what I’m saying.

Btw our democracy is intact. We are not governed by referendum but by representatives who are charged with doing what they think is best for the country. The fact that you happen to think that something else is best doesn’t matter a toss, particular since nearly half the voters for certain don’t share your view and nor do many others who are with you on the basic “leave” bus.

One thing is for sure. We will leave the EU (much as I regret it) but quite how remains to be sorted out. No surprise that there are a wide range of political views here, particular since the “how” wasn’t covered in the referendum so offered no guidance from “the people”.

 

[Signalcalc]

So we are now moving on from punishment beatings, to what the privileged globalisation elite want, to the establishment and deep state behind the scenes manoeuvres in derailing Brexit because they don't want it for what ever reason?

They don't want it because we have given them a right old headache sorting out how our deeply embedded military and security is going to continue without a trading or political arrangement. An embedding that the establishment and deep state have been quietly undertaking for many, many years now.

 

[timsk]

Hi Jon,

Not much point in continuing since you’re not really listening to what I’m saying.

Harsh - and not true. I always listen carefully to what you have to say - on any and every topic. From my perspective, it appears to me that you're not prepared to judge Mrs. May by her actions - by the actual things she's done - as opposed to the things she's said. So, here's a challenge for you. It's clear as day to me that either Mrs. May completely sidelined her own DExEU department or that Baker and Braverman are lying. Which is it - your call - it's either one or the other?

our democracy is intact. We are not governed by referendum but by representatives who are charged with doing what they think is best for the country. The fact that you happen to think that something else is best doesn’t matter a toss, particular since nearly half the voters for certain don’t share your view and nor do many others who are with you on the basic “leave” bus.

Okay, another question for you Jon. If Brexit isn't delivered, what will you personally say to brexiteers to make us feel okay about it and that a fair and just democracy is alive and well and that we can continue to put our trust and faith in our parliamentary system?

Before answering that, dwell on this for a moment . . .
If the shoe was on the other foot and remain had won by 52% to leave's 48% - and brexiteers said: 'Sorry remainers, even though you won the referendum - we're going to leave anyway' - how would you feel? Would you still think that our democracy is intact? Given how unhappy you are with the situation having lost, I think you'd be incandescent with rage if you'd won but we ended up leaving the EU anyway. I find it impossible to believe that anyone can seriously think that if Brexit isn't delivered that there won't be ramifications and repercussions so great that it will make the Poll Tax riots of 1990 look like a Sunday afternoon street party.

One thing is for sure. We will leave the EU (much as I regret it) but quite how remains to be sorted out. No surprise that there are a wide range of political views here, particular since the “how” wasn’t covered in the referendum so offered no guidance from “the people”.

Yet again, I must refer you to Steve Baker's testimony in which he makes clear that David Davis from DExEU and Donald Tusk from the EU solved the 'how' problem last summer.
Tim.

 

[barjon]

Hi Jon,

Harsh - and not true. I always listen carefully to what you have to say - on any and every topic. From my perspective, it appears to me that you're not prepared to judge Mrs. May by her actions - by the actual things she's done - as opposed to the things she's said. So, here's a challenge for you. It's clear as day to me that either Mrs. May completely sidelined her own DExEU department or that Baker and Braverman are lying. Which is it - your call - it's either one or the other?


Okay, another question for you Jon. If Brexit isn't delivered, what will you personally say to brexiteers to make us feel okay about it and that a fair and just democracy is alive and well and that we can continue to put our trust and faith in our parliamentary system?

Before answering that, dwell on this for a moment . . .
If the shoe was on the other foot and remain had won by 52% to leave's 48% - and brexiteers said: 'Sorry remainers, even though you won the referendum - we're going to leave anyway' - how would you feel? Would you still think that our democracy is intact? Given how unhappy you are with the situation having lost, I think you'd be incandescent with rage if you'd won but we ended up leaving the EU anyway. I find it impossible to believe that anyone can seriously think that if Brexit isn't delivered that there won't be ramifications and repercussions so great that it will make the Poll Tax riots of 1990 look like a Sunday afternoon street party.


Yet again, I must refer you to Steve Baker's testimony in which he makes clear that David Davis from DExEU and Donald Tusk from the EU solved the 'how' problem last summer.
Tim.

Tim

1. Why is it that you insist on missing the point? Listen to the testimony again - what is proven fact and what is their opinion of what TM’ s intentions and commitment were? What did (or would) No10 say about it in evidence and rebuttal?

2. Yes, I would have been very upset. But you seem to forget that Brexit will be delivered - just not the version of it that you would prefer. Always assuming there is no second referendum.

3. I was trying to point out that our democracy is about voting in representatives to take decisions on our behalf and our best interests in their judgement in accordance with a policy outline they put before us before they are elected. It is not about government by referendum and “people power” comes from holding them to account and chucking them out if we don’t like what they do. In this instance they have chosen to be guided by what a majority of the people want (unlike them stopping hanging) and I’m sure they will deliver Brexit albeit not one that people like yourself favour. Thus our democracy is secure, albeit in disarray.

4. Finally, I would say that if a Canada+ Deal was all but tied up why didn’t we hear much about it at the time and why did all reports talk of lack of progress by DD and his crew?

 

[Signalcalc]

3. I was trying to point out that our democracy is about voting in representatives to take decisions on our behalf and our best interests in their judgement in accordance with a policy outline they put before us before they are elected. It is not about government by referendum and “people power” comes from holding them to account and chucking them out if we don’t like what they do. In this instance they have chosen to be guided by what a majority of the people want (unlike them stopping hanging) and I’m sure they will deliver Brexit albeit not one that people like yourself favour. Thus our democracy is secure, albeit in disarray.

“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes & ears. It was their final, most essential command.” — George Orwell

 

[timsk]

Mornin' Jon,

1. Why is it that you insist on missing the point? Listen to the testimony again - what is proven fact and what is their opinion of what TM’ s intentions and commitment were? What did (or would) No10 say about it in evidence and rebuttal?

I'm not missing the point at all; it's that you don't accept my point that the evidence is provided by Mrs. May via her actions. If she was summoned before the European Scrutiny Committee - we all know exactly what she'd say. She'd trot out the usual ol' guff along the lines of having complete confidence in DExEU and its ministers and listening carefully to their ideas and taking a good many of them on board etc., etc. However, actions speak louder than words and hers clearly show that she prepared her own plan behind DExEU's back which she then put before cabinet at Chequers - the latest iteration of which we're still lumbered with today. No amount of drivel offered as evidence is going to change these hard facts. So, yet again I say - either she's being duplicitous or Baker and Braverman are lying. Slice it 'n dice any way you like Jon - this is what it boils down to.

2. Yes, I would have been very upset. But you seem to forget that Brexit will be delivered - just not the version of it that you would prefer. Always assuming there is no second referendum.

I'm glad you think Brexit will be delivered. The evidence thus far doesn't support that view. We're coming up three years since the referendum and it still hasn't happened. And if the Cooper amendment goes through on Wednesday, there will then be a delay. Needless to say, this is just one of a number of stunts being pulled by remain MPs to try and stop it altogether.

3. I was trying to point out that our democracy is about voting in representatives to take decisions on our behalf and our best interests in their judgement in accordance with a policy outline they put before us before they are elected. It is not about government by referendum and “people power” comes from holding them to account and chucking them out if we don’t like what they do. In this instance they have chosen to be guided by what a majority of the people want (unlike them stopping hanging) and I’m sure they will deliver Brexit albeit not one that people like yourself favour. Thus our democracy is secure, albeit in disarray.

Agreed, that's what should happen. But it's not what's actually happening. In this post I used Anna Soubry as an example of how MPs are failing the electorate, but the exact same reasoning could be applied of many of them across the HoC.

4. Finally, I would say that if a Canada+ Deal was all but tied up why didn’t we hear much about it at the time and why did all reports talk of lack of progress by DD and his crew?

Well, now we come full circle to the remain bias of MSM and the exchange between you, me and Signalcalc following this post. We can return to that if you like, but I suspect we'd just be raking over old ground.
Tim.

 

[barjon]

Mornin' Jon,

I'm not missing the point at all; it's that you don't accept my point that the evidence is provided by Mrs. May via her actions. If she was summoned before the European Scrutiny Committee - we all know exactly what she'd say. She'd trot out the usual ol' guff along the lines of having complete confidence in DExEU and its ministers and listening carefully to their ideas and taking a good many of them on board etc., etc. However, actions speak louder than words and hers clearly show that she prepared her own plan behind DExEU's back which she then put before cabinet at Chequers - the latest iteration of which we're still lumbered with today. No amount of drivel offered as evidence is going to change these hard facts. So, yet again I say - either she's being duplicitous or Baker and Braverman are lying. Slice it 'n dice any way you like Jon - this is what it boils down to.


I'm glad you think Brexit will be delivered. The evidence thus far doesn't support that view. We're coming up three years since the referendum and it still hasn't happened. And if the Cooper amendment goes through on Wednesday, there will then be a delay. Needless to say, this is just one of a number of stunts being pulled by remain MPs to try and stop it altogether.


Agreed, that's what should happen. But it's not what's actually happening. In this post I used Anna Soubry as an example of how MPs are failing the electorate, but the exact same reasoning could be applied of many of them across the HoC.


Well, now we come full circle to the remain bias of MSM and the exchange between you, me and Signalcalc following this post. We can return to that if you like, but I suspect we'd just be raking over old ground.
Tim.

Tim

You might be 100% right in your view in the end. All I was taking issue with was the “watertight evidence” when the bucket is actually a bit leaky.

So far as a the democracy bit is concerned. As I said it’s in disarray at the moment primarily because there was no manifesto commitment to the sort of deal to be sought, just the broad “out” with no further detail. No surprise then that politicians support a range of ideas from hard to soft. It’s the absence of any halfway decent leadership from TM that allows the fractures in her ranks.

After all, we will always have to obey the EU’s rules to some degreee if we wish to trade with them. Even the hardest Brexit will still leave our manufacturers and traders having to obey the minutiae of their rules if they wish to move their products.

 

[barjon]

“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes & ears. It was their final, most essential command.” — George Orwell

Nice one, signal.

Yesterday upon the stair I saw a man who was not there.
He was not there again today,
I do wish that man would go away.

 

[Atilla]

So the will of the people doesn't count? Try telling that to the people of Venezuela, the post-war inhabitants of Eastern Europe, the un-franchised population of this country not too long ago – to mention just a few examples. Look at history and see what happens under regimes that know best.

The will of the people scripted tosh has been hijacked by smart lying cheating power crazed and technology led manipulative shysters. Take back control from will of the people more like. No matter what is put in front of Brexiteers it is the same old mantra. Common sense and reason has left Brexiteers souls.

The irony of turning on the Labour party - historically known as the party of the people is even more amazing. Brexiteers peeing on everyone but them selves for bringing the UK into quagmire of blame everyone else but look at them selves.

There is a whole science behind the network of Brexiteers and yet Brexiteers accuse businessmen trying to protect their businesses and employees jobs of being in cahoots with some deep dark globalisation led elites. Even Aaron Banks with his Russian connections has questions to answer for.

What is equally incredible is that the Tories, party of business are the very people driving that red bus towards the cliff edge dive off the White Cliffs of Dover in their efforts to maintain their jobs and power base.

 

[Atilla]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47363307

We live in hope

Labour to save UK and the Tories from a daft self inflicted move.

Finally, country over party may just win the day.

 

[0007]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47363307

We live in hope

Labour to save UK and the Tories from a daft self inflicted move.

Finally, country over party may just win the day.

Or you could take the view that despite his lifelong antipathy towards the EU, their glorious leader has been nobbled as part of the Remain campaign. It will never last!

 

[Signalcalc]

Or you could take the view that despite his lifelong antipathy towards the EU, their glorious leader has been nobbled as part of the Remain campaign. It will never last!

Or maybe Labour are just clueless, don't know what Brexit they want, are falling apart, cannot make decisions, cannot influence the Tories and probably cannot influence half their voting base anymore and have given up trying.

Apart from the hard left, who has an ear for Corbyn anymore?

 

[Atilla]

Whether we remain or leave UK is well and truly up the Khyber.

Eurosceptics will just continue blaming everything under the sun that's wrong with the World on the EU. Investment will shy from the UK or be limited in scope. EU will take a much harder line against UK interests.

These days are the start of something horrible and so very wrong