Brexit and the Consequences

[Atilla]

How can we have our way 93% of the time when all members have to agree on any given issue? Is this more fake news

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No matey that's statistics on the number of times UK got voted against in EU parliament.

It's in these threads just don't know which page with references.

Here is one link. https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/

You can google it.

I think when I last checked it was from a certain date like 2000 onwards etc.

Check it out so you can see the lies they've peddled to sway public opinion. Most standards directives and regulation was requested and implemented by UK to provide a level playing field between producers and maintain high standards.

That's why the EU rule book witll be cut and pasted into UK rules. You've probably heard about that too. Google the Great Repeal Bill and see how it fits with what Brexiteers argued against. That was promoted by Davies by the way.

 

[FXX]

Nothing wrong in that. Stops little countries from demanding big payouts.

Voting is often based on:

1. debate
2. party lines
3. national lines

Bit like DUP votes, TM pays out 1bn, £1000m or £100m for each of those 10 votes.


It is Brexiteers who don't understand democracy. To cry foul when UK has her way in EU 93% of the time during voting but feels 7% of the time EU voted against UK and somehow that is undemocratic.

You still haven't learnt the numbers game have you? Did you know how to play snakes and ladders

So by that logic, brexit negotiations should be 93% in our favour. What are you remainers concerned about then

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[Atilla]

So by that logic, brexit negotiations should be 93% in our favour. What are you remainers concerned about then

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I think you may be right as the 27 remaining countries likely to vote for UK to be jettisoned as they stand to gain from business leaving UK to relocate in EU.


When Brexiteers claimed they'll be able to export more they didn't mention fact about exporting UK businesses to relocate in EU did they?


You keeping up FXX or turning to mockery. :whistling

 

[FXX]

Just been looking into fullfact. Have to with all the fake news out there and found this interesting article.

https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/faux-facts-disturbing-truth-about-fullfactorg

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[FXX]

I think you may be right as the 27 remaining countries likely to vote for UK to be jettisoned as they stand to gain from business leaving UK to relocate in EU.


When Brexiteers claimed they'll be able to export more they didn't mention fact about exporting UK businesses to relocate in EU did they?


You keeping up FXX or turning to mockery. :whistling

I'm a brexiter but respect the remain side for their views. Both sides have lied and both have questionable characters. Either way I am for Britain 100 %

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[FXX]

I think you may be right as the 27 remaining countries likely to vote for UK to be jettisoned as they stand to gain from business leaving UK to relocate in EU.


When Brexiteers claimed they'll be able to export more they didn't mention fact about exporting UK businesses to relocate in EU did they?


You keeping up FXX or turning to mockery. :whistling

We've been exporting businesses for hundreds of years. Nothing new here

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[Signalcalc]

Just been looking into fullfact. Have to with all the fake news out there and found this interesting article.

https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/faux-facts-disturbing-truth-about-fullfactorg

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We are bombarded, day after day, with government propaganda, think tanks, charities, NGOs and so on. I'm sure there may be a few genuine, trustworthy ones out there, but it is the government themselves that push out fake news masquerading as fact and has been doing for years.

The problem for them (the gubberment) is that they have lost control of the fake news narrative and they are currently proposing legislative changes to control how information is going to be distributed via social media, social media being the most obvious and most impactful example in the modern information age.

The citizens have awoken, WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU ANYMORE, we don't consume our news from legacy media, print media or govt MSM sources any longer, we see, we understand, we know what is happening, your attempts to shut down alternative voices are being closely monitored.

Orwellian Utopia in the making. Now either Att is fooled by the fake narratives (as so many remainers appear to be) or he is fully aware and complicit in it's spread.

What's it to be Att?

 

[Atilla]

Just been looking into fullfact. Have to with all the fake news out there and found this interesting article.

https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/faux-facts-disturbing-truth-about-fullfactorg

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First point original article was from Kings College London. Researchers were Research by Dr Hagemann and Professor Hix - their hyperlink takes you to more specific and interesting stats.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/does-the-uk-win-or-lose-in-the-council-of-ministers/


I have no idea what your fact checking fake news article has to do with the price of cheese. Lost me on that one.

Same news and stats were reported on national press but considering they refer to same reports probably get same numbers.

There I thought you were one of the more reasoned and more rational characters able to discern fundamental news.



Thank goodness for Brexiteers who'll steer the nation to the promised land, hand in hand with the wonderfully nice people from UKIP who all have hearts made of gold and located in the right place.

Hail Brexiteers, honest decent folk who only want to work for a decent wage in a fair and equitable society where (without any of that EU ECJ stuff) true justice prevails.



PS what do you think of the Great re-appeal bill by the way? Do you know what it is? Just don't understand how Brexiteers can tear into EU ECJ laws which they help draft out and vote through, then proceed to criticise it as if it's the plague p1551ng all over it and then decide to cut and paste into UK law.

Take a pause, have a good sh1t, think about it and then come back and tell us

 

[Signalcalc]

Brexit will cause....drumroll...spin wheel....the army to issue prescriptions

 

[Signalcalc]

Brexit will cause....drumroll...spin wheel....UK judges to remain subservient to the ECJ

No, wait... that can't be right, that's not fake news

 

[sminicooper]

Don't suppose we will get to read this correspondence will we ?

I don't think it would be fair to my MP to repeat his reply but I can give you the flavour. It's an ultra-safe Midlands constituency, has been continuously Conservative for over 90 years and the Brexit vote was split fairly evenly along national lines. Having given him the full benefit of my views on Theresa May's duplicity/incompetence/lack of leadership with regard to Brexit and urging him and his colleagues to deal with it, I actually felt quite sorry for him and wasn't really anticipating a reply other than the standard polite acknowledgement.

A few days later I received a lengthy email setting out his stall. It would seem that he has carefully thought about these topics and while not revealing whether or not he has submitted one of those "dissatisfaction" letters or openly slagging off the PM, he carefully explained his background to being a Brexit supporter and discussed in detail the Chequers proposal. I was interested to find out that prior to being an MP he had been very closely involved in the movement to prevent Tony Blair from adopting the Euro and further closely involved in campaigning for a referendum on the EU constitution. So whether you agree with his Brexit views or not, it is evident that like the leopard, he has spots and hasn't changed them! I thought he gave a fair assessment of the Chequers proposal: not a particularly good deal even if achievable but having some merit in parts. He actually discussed in detail the merits and demerits of quite a few factors. His overall assessment of the situation is that it is all very fluid and rather unclear at the moment (omitted to say whether he thought this was Theresa May's fault).

What has impressed me is his statement that "As your MP I owe you a duty of honesty about the difficult situation in Parliament" and I believe he has fulfilled that. I think it's important to remember that for an MP in a constituency that is fairly evenly split, it is impossible to please both sides and the only sensible course is to come clean and state what you really believe in – no doubt that is very difficult for some MPs. It's also Theresa May's problem isn't it?

There was a lot more in his reply than my brief outline above but I do at least feel that this man is doing his best to be a good constituency MP. Despite their popular bad press, it's always been my impression over the years in dealing with MPs that the ones I have encountered have been decent hard-working people wanting to contribute something worthwhile to national life. It would be interesting to hear about anyone else's experience with giving their MP an ear-bending.

 

[Pat494]

Most MPs are Party yes men or they don't get promoted.
Must be a hard burden to bear when they probably think they have all the answers.
By the time they get near the top they have forgotten how to think for themselves.
Sir Humphry is alive and well.

 

[FXX]

First point original article was from Kings College London. Researchers were Research by Dr Hagemann and Professor Hix - their hyperlink takes you to more specific and interesting stats.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/does-the-uk-win-or-lose-in-the-council-of-ministers/


I have no idea what your fact checking fake news article has to do with the price of cheese. Lost me on that one.

Same news and stats were reported on national press but considering they refer to same reports probably get same numbers.

There I thought you were one of the more reasoned and more rational characters able to discern fundamental news.



Thank goodness for Brexiteers who'll steer the nation to the promised land, hand in hand with the wonderfully nice people from UKIP who all have hearts made of gold and located in the right place.

Hail Brexiteers, honest decent folk who only want to work for a decent wage in a fair and equitable society where (without any of that EU ECJ stuff) true justice prevails.



PS what do you think of the Great re-appeal bill by the way? Do you know what it is? Just don't understand how Brexiteers can tear into EU ECJ laws which they help draft out and vote through, then proceed to criticise it as if it's the plague p1551ng all over it and then decide to cut and paste into UK law.

Take a pause, have a good sh1t, think about it and then come back and tell us

It's just an interesting article, wasn't a dig or anything so relax.

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[FXX]

@Atilla


Like many remainers I just don't think you understand why the vote went the way it did. I can rehash the same reasonings as has been done by others many times on this thread and in the press. I don't see the point in that given that this thread is nothing more than a repeating record without any progress. Its like it has morphed into a platform for remainers and brexiters to throw mud at each other. Cheese, repeal bill, what difference would it make other than yet another mud slinging match?

I am at the point where I just don't care about the what's, when's, or who for that matter. I can for example explain to you until the cows come home, it isn't going to change your viewpoint. Likewise asking me to discuss this and that as though it will yield dialect is just not going to happen. Every note between the remainers and brexiters in this thread has lead to mud slinging to varying degrees. Nobody is going to budge on their view on this and after 400 pages and over 6k posts nobody is any wiser or having an altered opinion.

Remainers just don't understand and never will by the looks of it. Project fear is continued in various forms without much evidence to support outside of anecdotal. I am not getting into a mud slinging match and I know you are pulling me in but it just isn't going to happen. I have trading to do and a profession to maintain so unfortunately I will be stepping off this thread indefinitely. If after 6000 posts perceptions were altered I might have given this more time but alas it isn't the case.



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[Signalcalc]

@Atilla


Like many remainers I just don't think you understand why the vote went the way it did. I can rehash the same reasonings as has been done by others many times on this thread and in the press. I don't see the point in that given that this thread is nothing more than a repeating record without any progress. Its like it has morphed into a platform for remainers and brexiters to throw mud at each other. Cheese, repeal bill, what difference would it make other than yet another mud slinging match?

I am at the point where I just don't care about the what's, when's, or who for that matter. I can for example explain to you until the cows come home, it isn't going to change your viewpoint. Likewise asking me to discuss this and that as though it will yield dialect is just not going to happen. Every note between the remainers and brexiters in this thread has lead to mud slinging to varying degrees. Nobody is going to budge on their view on this and after 400 pages and over 6k posts nobody is any wiser or having an altered opinion.

Remainers just don't understand and never will by the looks of it. Project fear is continued in various forms without much evidence to support outside of anecdotal. I am not getting into a mud slinging match and I know you are pulling me in but it just isn't going to happen. I have trading to do and a profession to maintain so unfortunately I will be stepping off this thread indefinitely. If after 6000 posts perceptions were altered I might have given this more time but alas it isn't the case.



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I think we are still here for various reasons - some are still trying to come to terms with the result, some are disgusted at the vote/way things have progressed/not progressed, some just want to vent frustrations, some enjoy pointing out that there is an alternative narrative to be discovered if you have the time to look and so on.

There is a whole world of politics going on beyond Brexit, Brexit has become a launch pad to many insights into British politics and changes that are underway, I personally find it fascinating, which is something I didn't do for around 49 years of my previous non-political life.

Yes it results in banter, mudslinging etc, take it with a pinch of salt, don't make it personal and enjoy what you do.

Whilst I enjoy the interaction with Att, I don't take it personally, therein lies the route of doom, got to remember he is outnumbered by many intellectual Brexiteers, he is in the minority, just as remainers are in the country.

This thread provides more than banter and a way to vent frustrations though, it also provides insight, and from everything I read around the web, Att reflects quite accurately the attitudes anger and frustrations of remainers all over, poor lost souls (that's not to say that Brexiteers also are not angry and frustrated with the process).

Of course not many, if any, will change their mind over anything said on this thread and I don't think any of us have any illusion that we could change anyone else's mind either!

Sorry Att

PS Remember the only real power we have as ordinary citizens is at the ballot box (and writing to our MPs) if Att hadn't started this thread, I think I may be non-the-wiser about UK politics, so thankyou Att for that and the many interactions I have had with you (and the Chess ).

 

[Signalcalc]

I don't think it would be fair to my MP to repeat his reply but I can give you the flavour. It's an ultra-safe Midlands constituency, has been continuously Conservative for over 90 years and the Brexit vote was split fairly evenly along national lines. Having given him the full benefit of my views on Theresa May's duplicity/incompetence/lack of leadership with regard to Brexit and urging him and his colleagues to deal with it, I actually felt quite sorry for him and wasn't really anticipating a reply other than the standard polite acknowledgement.

A few days later I received a lengthy email setting out his stall. It would seem that he has carefully thought about these topics and while not revealing whether or not he has submitted one of those "dissatisfaction" letters or openly slagging off the PM, he carefully explained his background to being a Brexit supporter and discussed in detail the Chequers proposal. I was interested to find out that prior to being an MP he had been very closely involved in the movement to prevent Tony Blair from adopting the Euro and further closely involved in campaigning for a referendum on the EU constitution. So whether you agree with his Brexit views or not, it is evident that like the leopard, he has spots and hasn't changed them! I thought he gave a fair assessment of the Chequers proposal: not a particularly good deal even if achievable but having some merit in parts. He actually discussed in detail the merits and demerits of quite a few factors. His overall assessment of the situation is that it is all very fluid and rather unclear at the moment (omitted to say whether he thought this was Theresa May's fault).

What has impressed me is his statement that "As your MP I owe you a duty of honesty about the difficult situation in Parliament" and I believe he has fulfilled that. I think it's important to remember that for an MP in a constituency that is fairly evenly split, it is impossible to please both sides and the only sensible course is to come clean and state what you really believe in – no doubt that is very difficult for some MPs. It's also Theresa May's problem isn't it?

There was a lot more in his reply than my brief outline above but I do at least feel that this man is doing his best to be a good constituency MP. Despite their popular bad press, it's always been my impression over the years in dealing with MPs that the ones I have encountered have been decent hard-working people wanting to contribute something worthwhile to national life. It would be interesting to hear about anyone else's experience with giving their MP an ear-bending.

Thanks Mini, I was under the impression that writing to my MP was a waste of time until now.

 

[timsk]

. . .PS what do you think of the Great re-appeal bill by the way? Do you know what it is? Just don't understand how Brexiteers can tear into EU ECJ laws which they help draft out and vote through, then proceed to criticise it as if it's the plague p1551ng all over it and then decide to cut and paste into UK law.

Take a pause, have a good sh1t, think about it and then come back and tell us

Hi Att',
As FXX doesn't want to play ball - I'll indulge you. That said, he is quite correct when he points out that all these questions have been asked - and the answers provided - many times before, so I'm not going to tell you anything you don't already know.

It's all about the overarching principle - specific details are not important at this stage. Obviously we can't re-write every EU/ECJ law, rule, regulation and edict between now and next March - that's totally impractical. Besides which, a great many - probably the vast majority of them - are just fine as they are and will never be changed. Hence the EU withdrawal bill. The point is that when we leave we'll have the option to edit or delete anything we want. (By way of example, I'm hopeful that changes to the fishing industry will be high on the list.) So, going forward, we will be able to decide for ourselves how we wish to conduct our affairs and not have a third party impose their rules 'n reg's on us - even though the vast majority of them we agree with and support. Think principle, principle, principle - that's pretty much all you need to know and do, whereupon most of this stuff becomes fairly obvious, clear and simple.
Tim.

 

[Pat494]

Hi Att',
As FXX doesn't want to play ball - I'll indulge you. That said, he is quite correct when he points out that all these questions have been asked - and the answers provided - many times before, so I'm not going to tell you anything you don't already know.

It's all about the overarching principle - specific details are not important at this stage. Obviously we can't re-write every EU/ECJ law, rule, regulation and edict between now and next March - that's totally impractical. Besides which, a great many - probably the vast majority of them - are just fine as they are and will never be changed. Hence the EU withdrawal bill. The point is that when we leave we'll have the option to edit or delete anything we want. (By way of example, I'm hopeful that changes to the fishing industry will be high on the list.) So, going forward, we will be able to decide for ourselves how we wish to conduct our affairs and not have a third party impose their rules 'n reg's on us - even though the vast majority of them we agree with and support. Think principle, principle, principle - that's pretty much all you need to know and do, whereupon most of this stuff becomes fairly obvious, clear and simple.
Tim.

Good points above from Tim.
However I would slightly amend the last statement and put in money instead of principle.
The human creature is obsessed with more and more money. Especially across the pond.

 

[Oscar Reed]

I think we are still here for various reasons - some are still trying to come to terms with the result, some are disgusted at the vote/way things have progressed/not progressed, some just want to vent frustrations, some enjoy pointing out that there is an alternative narrative to be discovered if you have the time to look and so on.

There is a whole world of politics going on beyond Brexit, Brexit has become a launch pad to many insights into British politics and changes that are underway, I personally find it fascinating, which is something I didn't do for around 49 years of my previous non-political life.

Yes it results in banter, mudslinging etc, take it with a pinch of salt, don't make it personal and enjoy what you do.

Whilst I enjoy the interaction with Att, I don't take it personally, therein lies the route of doom, got to remember he is outnumbered by many intellectual Brexiteers, he is in the minority, just as remainers are in the country.

This thread provides more than banter and a way to vent frustrations though, it also provides insight, and from everything I read around the web, Att reflects quite accurately the attitudes anger and frustrations of remainers all over, poor lost souls (that's not to say that Brexiteers also are not angry and frustrated with the process).

Of course not many, if any, will change their mind over anything said on this thread and I don't think any of us have any illusion that we could change anyone else's mind either!

Sorry Att

PS Remember the only real power we have as ordinary citizens is at the ballot box (and writing to our MPs) if Att hadn't started this thread, I think I may be non-the-wiser about UK politics, so thankyou Att for that and the many interactions I have had with you (and the Chess ).

 

[sminicooper]

Hi Att',
As FXX doesn't want to play ball - I'll indulge you. That said, he is quite correct when he points out that all these questions have been asked - and the answers provided - many times before, so I'm not going to tell you anything you don't already know.

It's all about the overarching principle - specific details are not important at this stage. Obviously we can't re-write every EU/ECJ law, rule, regulation and edict between now and next March - that's totally impractical. Besides which, a great many - probably the vast majority of them - are just fine as they are and will never be changed. Hence the EU withdrawal bill. The point is that when we leave we'll have the option to edit or delete anything we want. (By way of example, I'm hopeful that changes to the fishing industry will be high on the list.) So, going forward, we will be able to decide for ourselves how we wish to conduct our affairs and not have a third party impose their rules 'n reg's on us - even though the vast majority of them we agree with and support. Think principle, principle, principle - that's pretty much all you need to know and do, whereupon most of this stuff becomes fairly obvious, clear and simple.
Tim.

That's spot on! It surely is all about principle(s) – and what are we as people or nation if we don't have them? I think it's fairly evident (even just based on what's been written in this thread) that neither Leave nor Remain Is a 100% perfect solution – but what in life ever is?

The important thing is to have principles, stick to them and respect the principles of those who disagree with you. You've got to hand it to people like Attila who do their homework and stand up for what they believe in against the mighty onslaught of Leavers on this thread!

And that's what colours my views of individual politicians. Do they have principles? Do they change them from time to time? Do their actions support their principles? Put these indicators on your political chart and the long-term average becomes much clearer and will help you to buy/sell/hold.

I put my own principles of democracy against those of the EU and that's why I'm a Leaver.