Why I find it so hard to trade with trend?

luckyvictor

Active member
138 3
Hi all

Hopefully someone can help me get through this.
I have been trading for a while now, there is up and down, when I reviewed my trades, usually they failed becuase I was trading against the trend, of course there were times that when I traded against the trend, it was actually the start of the reverse.

I do want to make an improvement, and I know I should trade with trends, however the difficulty is, I always worry that the trend won't last long and would start reversing at the point that I entered (of course it had happened, and quite often as well). When I identified (confirmed) there is a trend, it often runs for a while, so i worry it couldn't make higher high or lower low. Instead I consider, or believe that pull back has a probability, and this is what I trade, hence against the trend.

How should I convince myself to trade with the trend? Anyone has been through this and may give some good though/advice?
 

drcruz

Junior member
38 12
I'm reading Dual Momentum and there are a lot famous traders that buy high and sell higher or sell low and sell lower. Examples are Livermore, O'Neil, Wyckoff, Richard Dennis, Ed Seykota, Darvas, William Dunn.
 

trendie

Legendary member
6,841 1,400
Hi all

Hopefully someone can help me get through this.
I have been trading for a while now, there is up and down, when I reviewed my trades, usually they failed becuase I was trading against the trend, of course there were times that when I traded against the trend, it was actually the start of the reverse.

I do want to make an improvement, and I know I should trade with trends, however the difficulty is, I always worry that the trend won't last long and would start reversing at the point that I entered (of course it had happened, and quite often as well). When I identified (confirmed) there is a trend, it often runs for a while, so i worry it couldn't make higher high or lower low. Instead I consider, or believe that pull back has a probability, and this is what I trade, hence against the trend.

How should I convince myself to trade with the trend? Anyone has been through this and may give some good though/advice?
You need to replace all your worries with facts and data,
Get some kind of notebook, or demo, and just follow your rules.
You will soon have a data-set of proof, and stats backing your ideas.
Replace suppositions with data. Do some back-testing if possible.

Over time, you should have evidence in place of hopes and fears.
I find placing stop-losses and managing risk is easier with Trend-following methods.
I trade pull-backs, so I identify a trend on a higher time-frame, and take entries on a lower time-frame in direction of main trend.
Its a solid concept.

Good luck with it. Hope it goes well for you.
 

alessandro86

Newbie
1 5
Hi,

I have been trading for over 15 years, and I also have always struggled to stay with the trend and counter trade when there is absolutely no sign of reversal.

I believe it is mostly a psychological issue and wanting to be a contrarian. I have always done things my way and I never wanted to follow the rules of how things should be done. Unfortunately this also means that I dont stick to my own rules and strategy. Lack of patience and discipline is also a part of the problem.

Personally I am still battling with this, however I believe there are some solutions in order to improve. Firstly trade sizing and scaling in and out. If you keep your positions small it will be easier to stick to the right trading approach without being overwhelmed with emotions. This will allow you to hold your winners for longer and trade with the price action rather than against it. Once your confidence is build, you can increase position size. Also for traders like us who are tempted to trade against the price it is important to use multiple entries. If the market is going down and we are buying without any signs of reversals it is important to start buying small. That way we can hold onto our loss and feel some pain. This will then help us to understand that we shouldn't trade against the trend and it will also allow us to build our patience and wait for a clear buying opportunity. Once the trend changes and gives a clear buying opportunity we are able to buy more aggressively and quickly be back into profit.

Now the challenge becomes to hold onto our winners. By having multiple lots we are able to take some profits quite rapidly and hold the rest and ride the buying wave. Unfortunately there will always be imperfections in our trading, however by practicing these techniques among many others and a daily basis will create the confidence and positive habits to become a profitable and successful trader.

Never give up; dollar by dollar.
 

tomorton

Legendary member
8,410 1,338
Hi,

I have been trading for over 15 years, and I also have always struggled to stay with the trend and counter trade when there is absolutely no sign of reversal.

I believe it is mostly a psychological issue and wanting to be a contrarian. I have always done things my way and I never wanted to follow the rules of how things should be done. Unfortunately this also means that I dont stick to my own rules and strategy. Lack of patience and discipline is also a part of the problem.

Personally I am still battling with this, however I believe there are some solutions in order to improve. Firstly trade sizing and scaling in and out. If you keep your positions small it will be easier to stick to the right trading approach without being overwhelmed with emotions. This will allow you to hold your winners for longer and trade with the price action rather than against it. Once your confidence is build, you can increase position size. Also for traders like us who are tempted to trade against the price it is important to use multiple entries. If the market is going down and we are buying without any signs of reversals it is important to start buying small. That way we can hold onto our loss and feel some pain. This will then help us to understand that we shouldn't trade against the trend and it will also allow us to build our patience and wait for a clear buying opportunity. Once the trend changes and gives a clear buying opportunity we are able to buy more aggressively and quickly be back into profit.

Now the challenge becomes to hold onto our winners. By having multiple lots we are able to take some profits quite rapidly and hold the rest and ride the buying wave. Unfortunately there will always be imperfections in our trading, however by practicing these techniques among many others and a daily basis will create the confidence and positive habits to become a profitable and successful trader.

Never give up; dollar by dollar.


I really really like this - here is a rational, well expressed way to trade reversals that does not simply put blind faith in a half-baked candlestick pattern or the 26th indicator in the little book of indicators.

Any new trader who thinks that the only way to "beat the market" is to sell because price is high and buy because price is low, well firstly you're wrong but if you must do this, make sure you follow these guidelines.
 

tomorton

Legendary member
8,410 1,338
Hi all

Hopefully someone can help me get through this.
I have been trading for a while now, there is up and down, when I reviewed my trades, usually they failed becuase I was trading against the trend, of course there were times that when I traded against the trend, it was actually the start of the reverse.

I do want to make an improvement, and I know I should trade with trends, however the difficulty is, I always worry that the trend won't last long and would start reversing at the point that I entered (of course it had happened, and quite often as well). When I identified (confirmed) there is a trend, it often runs for a while, so i worry it couldn't make higher high or lower low. Instead I consider, or believe that pull back has a probability, and this is what I trade, hence against the trend.

How should I convince myself to trade with the trend? Anyone has been through this and may give some good though/advice?


You're being too critical of trends.

Firstly, a trend is just another TA pattern, like head & shoulders or double top or ascending triangles or even bullish engulfing candlesticks and pin bars. Notice how unreliable these are and how hard they are to find and how they never look quite like the textbook examples and they never last long enough to get the maximum profit......

Compared to trends these patterns are uncommon, difficult to identify, tricky to trade and prone to whipsaw.

Yes, I know many traders say markets only trend for about 30% of the time. In actual fact, in trying to criticise trends, they are praising them - what other chart pattern is in existence for 30% of the time?

Knowing the most common chart pattern is a huge advantage. Especially when its also the easiest to see and play.
 
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tomorton

Legendary member
8,410 1,338
Knowing the patterns and the graphic part in general is wonderful. But, another thing is to be able to put it all into practice. Such as in a textbook, in practice, that never happens.


As for the other patterns apart from trends, I agree. They rarely work like they should.

But trends are also patterns, in fact they are the simplest price chart pattern. They are also the most common price chart pattern, occurring frequently in every market on every time-frame. Every trend ever seen featured pull-backs. Entering with the trend as a pull-back ends is statistically one of the most reliable trading tactics.
 

barjon

Legendary member
10,705 1,809
As for the other patterns apart from trends, I agree. They rarely work like they should.

But trends are also patterns, in fact they are the simplest price chart pattern. They are also the most common price chart pattern, occurring frequently in every market on every time-frame. Every trend ever seen featured pull-backs. Entering with the trend as a pull-back ends is statistically one of the most reliable trading tactics.

yes, trading pull-backs (retracements) is what I do. You could argue, of course, that I’m trading reversals in that I’m going counter to the trend of the pull-back, albeit that I‘m going with a longer term trend and albeit that I might also be counter to an even longer term trend. :) Need to know where you are with your timeframes.
 

greenscreen

Newbie
5 0
Hi all

Hopefully someone can help me get through this.
I have been trading for a while now, there is up and down, when I reviewed my trades, usually they failed becuase I was trading against the trend, of course there were times that when I traded against the trend, it was actually the start of the reverse.

I do want to make an improvement, and I know I should trade with trends, however the difficulty is, I always worry that the trend won't last long and would start reversing at the point that I entered (of course it had happened, and quite often as well). When I identified (confirmed) there is a trend, it often runs for a while, so i worry it couldn't make higher high or lower low. Instead I consider, or believe that pull back has a probability, and this is what I trade, hence against the trend.

How should I convince myself to trade with the trend? Anyone has been through this and may give some good though/advice?

Always get a higher timeframe chart open. About 5 multiple is fine.

Have the higher timeframe with trend.

Then do your trading on your lower timeframe. Even if you're doing your usual counter trend trading, big brother higher timeframe will try to look after you.
 

Trading Spaces

Well-known member
375 17
I'm reading Dual Momentum and there are a lot famous traders that buy high and sell higher or sell low and sell lower. Examples are Livermore, O'Neil, Wyckoff, Richard Dennis, Ed Seykota, Darvas, William Dunn.

which dual momentum book? There are two.
 

Rufus_Leakey

Active member
226 105
which dual momentum book? There are two.

I'd guess it's the one about trend trading

because the other one is about investing.
 
Last edited:

Azalea

Newbie
6 0
Hi,

I have been trading for over 15 years, and I also have always struggled to stay with the trend and counter trade when there is absolutely no sign of reversal.

I believe it is mostly a psychological issue and wanting to be a contrarian. I have always done things my way and I never wanted to follow the rules of how things should be done. Unfortunately this also means that I dont stick to my own rules and strategy. Lack of patience and discipline is also a part of the problem.

Personally I am still battling with this, however I believe there are some solutions in order to improve. Firstly trade sizing and scaling in and out. If you keep your positions small it will be easier to stick to the right trading approach without being overwhelmed with emotions. This will allow you to hold your winners for longer and trade with the price action rather than against it. Once your confidence is build, you can increase position size. Also for traders like us who are tempted to trade against the price it is important to use multiple entries. If the market is going down and we are buying without any signs of reversals it is important to start buying small. That way we can hold onto our loss and feel some pain. This will then help us to understand that we shouldn't trade against the trend and it will also allow us to build our patience and wait for a clear buying opportunity. Once the trend changes and gives a clear buying opportunity we are able to buy more aggressively and quickly be back into profit.

Now the challenge becomes to hold onto our winners. By having multiple lots we are able to take some profits quite rapidly and hold the rest and ride the buying wave. Unfortunately there will always be imperfections in our trading, however by practicing these techniques among many others and a daily basis will create the confidence and positive habits to become a profitable and successful trader.

Never give up; dollar by dollar.
Wow this response is what I have been looking for, pretty much covers the human mind is fickle. I have been looking for a response like this thank you so much!
 

1nvest

Well-known member
310 109
which dual momentum book? There are two.
surely there can be only one dual momentum
I'd guess it's the one about trend trading

because the other one is about investing.
you second link, Antonacci's book uses momentum as the trend. I have the book. there is a whole section on just the single momentum aspect. id recommend that book to anyone
 
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