Trading Seminars

[a320]

No Zenda... I've been assured its not a wind up :!:

You wont be banned BBB...just a warning :cheesy:

Any comments from the Seminar speakers would be most welcome

Harsh statements for the open boards regarding a former pupil sandy :?:

CJ

 

[Trader333]

Zenda,

And Webmaster now that Mr Charts has gone commercial........

It is "Chartman" that you are referring to and not "Mr Charts" that is on the front page.


Paul

 

[TBS]

Harsh statements for the open boards regarding a former pupil sandy :?:

CJ

Justifiably so too.

Consider this:

1. Naz - years of experience, a specific product, well known throughout the industry, teaches the subject at Guilford Uni etc... 1-2-1 training £395, £345 if there are two of you.

http://www.trade2win.co.uk/store/customer/product.php?productid=16168&cat=253&page=1

2. Mr Charts - plenty of experience, vouched for by Roger M and Naz (which is good enough for me), specific trading technique and style Don't know much about him, but those whom he has taught on a 1-2-1 basis rate him. Perhaps a tad expensive at £800, but he comes to you.

3. My own TA in a Nutshell course - designed to give a good grounding in TA, I've been trading for some 10+years (some good some bad!) and it is my living - not a hobby! My presentation 'pedigree' is through teaching the subject at City University Business School and some private work with City Institutions - as well as running occasional courses for individuals (£185):

http://www.trade2win.co.uk/boards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4991

Now consider this.

The offering by CM and FB together does not work and is very expensive.

1. CM could probably run a day course on its own for those that are interested in his very specific and personalised trading system, anyone turning up on the day without a very good grasp of both basic TA and a good working knowledge of indicators may as well not bother.

2. CM does not need FB doing basic TA, Risk Management, Psychology of trading as a warm-up act, these are extensive subjects which require an authorotative knowledge and probably a day course on each one rather than an hour or so.

3. FB is so far out of his depth it ain't funny, he does not posess the knowledge, experience or ability to lecture on these subjects to the extent of 'teaching' some one about them, as has already been mentioned, standing on your hind legs for 30 minutes in front of a room full of people at a traders day is one thing. Producing and presenting for a professional fee is quite another.

Now look at the mix and compare to the potential audiences.

'Newbies' are going to have to listen to FB gloss over some of the most important pieces of the trading jigsaw, then be completely lost when CM starts on divergent indicators etc.... by the time they get out of the door they should be on suicide watch - at the very least banned from driving until their brains defrost, because this amount of info in one go to a newbie trader is just impractical.

'Experienced' traders will be very specific in their requirement - they want to listen to Martin go through his Dow systems and explain them in some depth. They don't want to listen to a failed trader bang on about risk management and the psychology of trading when he has no depth of experience nor 'track record'

The 'newbies' are going to get hacked off with the superior attitude of the 'experienced'. The 'experienced ' are going to get hacked off with the 'newbies' for asking blatantly stupid questions.

Both are going to realise that they have just been conned out of £295 - or should that be £395 with a 25% discount!

I personally do not believe that this course/seminar has been thought through in terms of content, audience ability & mix, available presentation skills and value for money.

Because of the mix it is obvious that neither have really thought this through or done much presenting otherwise they would realise the above

Oh - and limiting the numbers to 40? Like you are really going to be able to present this lot effectively to 40 people.

So why should I care?

Quite simple, the potential knock-on effect on this site and therefore the credibility of those of us who wish to offer our own courses/seminars becomes further tarnished.

T2W can distance themselves as much as they want, but at the end of the day both CM and FB are senior moderators on this site, it is effectively seen as a T2W sponsored event and as such T2W should be absolutely sure what they are offering as a duty of care towards the members.

There are enough people out there offering 'financial' courses that don't have a clue about the subject they are espousing without adding to the list, many of them already have disparaging threads on this site.

Perhaps if those offering the course were prepared to do a 'dress rehearsal' to say Naz and Sharky or someone else who knows both and is independent of the site - say Helen Q. So that it could recieve some form of review before others part with what is quite a large sum of cash for what on the surface appears to be a potential disaster.

 

[Simon]

Whatever his failings, a number of the posts above contain much unnecessary nastiness & vitriol directed at a member of this site who has consistently strove to help others. Pointing out someone’s failings & highlighting them as a warning to others are one thing, much of what has been previously written is something else altogether.

Can we all stop behaving like ***t* please? Whilst entertaining, it is also tremendously distracting, especially to a retarded ‘wannabe’ trader such as myself.

 

[ColinRiche]

I just read the email and i too could not believe it

I felt sure there must be a typo in there... £29.50 not £295

I'm just glad that Sandy spoke up first... i second every point he has made.

£295 for a one to one then maybe
but
£295 for a room of 40 people... no way

so thats £12,000 - 6 grand for Mark and 6 grand for Martin for one days work- your having a laugh

I'll even do a seminar for that price

I think Martin will have legal implications....

When people run a TA course they can not suggest or recommend buying or selling any one stock or index

But thats basically what this course is- its about trading the Dow (or S&P same difference)

Even if its not suggested its implied.

Alan gets away with it because Level 2 is not specific to any one trading instrument.

No doubts Marks there just to make it sound a bit more general

After all the slagging off of DW and VS....its a shame 2 respected members have resorted down to this level

Sounds like pure greed to me

If Martin wants to privately teach his methods then fine....but this was a public advert.

And Mark i think you should try taking the STA exam before you even dream about teaching others.
.

 

[Trader333]

Educating people how to trade an index is not a recommendation to do so and I dont think there will be any FSA issues to worry about on that score at all.


Paul

 

[ChartMan]

I thank you for all your constructive criticisms. If there is one thing I have learnt over the years, it is that if you are going to jump in feet first,then either a) make sure you have a safety harness on or b) be certain of the facts. I should just like to clear up one small matter of a jumping to a conclusion. The course material has been prepared by myself, with Mark presenting the morning session for me. It is aimed solely at those wishing to trade the Dow and an important aspect of the course it that one will find out how real life TA deviates from "text book" theory.
It saddens me to see such apparently esteemed members reducing themselves to such vicious attacks. Common courtesy prevents me from reciprocating.

 

[TBS]

I thank you for all your constructive criticisms. If there is one thing I have learnt over the years, it is that if you are going to jump in feet first,then either a) make sure you have a safety harness on or b) be certain of the facts. I should just like to clear up one small matter of a jumping to a conclusion. The course material has been prepared by myself, with Mark presenting the morning session for me. It is aimed solely at those wishing to trade the Dow and an important aspect of the course it that one will find out how real life TA deviates from "text book" theory.
It saddens me to see such apparently esteemed members reducing themselves to such vicious attacks. Common courtesy prevents me from reciprocating.

Oh, really - One thing I have learnt over the years is to proof read any adverts I send out in case they may be construed as mis-leading:

The title:

The Basics of Trading &
Application to the Dow

Notice how the title is in two colours so that people know that these are two separate subjects and that the first is not specific to the second.

The first intro paragraph:

As a special event, Martin Shoebridge (ChartMan) and Mark Williams (FTSE Beater) will be running a one-day trading seminar.

Not, CM has prepared and FB will be helping out?

This will combine Mark’s simple approach to trading UK and US stocks, with the comprehensive strategy and style that Martin has used to trade the Dow for many years.

Ah, so perhaps it isn't all about the Dow then? Nor is it all prepared by CM?

As for the detailed content, that previous posts apply, the content of the course is mutually exclusive.

So what is the seminar? All about trading the Dow as you claim above? or whatever is listed in the contents of the advert?, including UK and US stocks as well as a simple trading strategy?

Or are you saying that you now don't know what the content is?

 

[Uncle]

I must say I too was surprised at the cost of this seminar, especially as it is being run in Hatfield which reduces the outgoings from central London. Whatever happened to the days when we were prepared to help one another for free. I always found Martin (Chartman) to be one who was available to all, be it technical questions on P C's, or to do with trading.

The charge of £295 really does beggar belief.

However, I sincerely hope all who attend do benefit from the day, and recover the cost over and over.

This is not to criticize the tuition or the cost, given by Alan Rich which is on a different level altogether.

Sorry to have to disapprove of an old stalwarts efforts, but some things have to be stated.

John

 

[BBB]

Chartman - maybe you'd be doing your self a favour if you did this as your own event?

Thumbs up for coming back.

 

[ColinRiche]

and with a more realistic price tag and group size

 

[TBS]

and a rework of the content list because what you mention above and what you advertised are two completely different things.

 

[Glenn]

sidinuk & Glenn

Thank you for your replies and the referal to Signalwatch.

I looked at a summary of trading - I think it was for 2002 which for the year gave Wins 77 (40%) Lose 65 (34%) Break Even 49 (25%) If you remove the break evens the Wins are 54% and the Lose are 46%. Not my 60/40 but still more wins than losses.

Notwithstanding the above paragraph why are people not beating a path to signalwatch if the oveall record is cosidered good.

regards
bracke

Bracke
Sorry, I missed your question earlier (14th).
Why are people not beating a path ....?
All I can say to that is how can you tell ? Not that it matters what others are doing. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
Many people prefer to look at more complicated approaches on the assumption that 'clever' = better. At the end of the day, as many have said before, it's down to money management.
Ed demonstrates this pretty well.
As regards your 60/40 ratio, I would caution you not to be too rigid. If you make a lot of points on your winners and lose a few on your losers, then you can operate with worse ratios. Ed's approach works like that. Did you tot up the net number of points he made ? (I haven't)
I have mentioned Signalwatch before as a potential training site. (I have no connection other than as an observer since he started). However as you can't directly trade the underlying Dow or Nasdaq, then you can't trade his suggestions for real.
But what you can do is to learn his approach and use it elsewhere. It's a method of trading without Indicators, it's free and it posts trades in advance. Not a bad deal imo.
Hope that helps
Glenn

 

[Grey1]

Glen,

Quote " Many people prefer to look at more complicated approaches on the assumption that 'clever' = better. At the end of the day, as many have said before, it's down to money management. Ed demonstrates this pretty well. "


It is all down to risk management .. Risk management is not an easy subject to implement intra_day , Money management is ..


Risk and money management are two different subjects all together..

regards

 

[BBB]

I've always thought there is a huge overlap in both areas.

For example - the amount of $ you risk on a trade. Does that come under RM or MM?

What about where you keep yor stop? Most would assume it's a RM issue, but in the same instance it also affects how you are managing your money/paper profit. But hang on, isn't placing a stop more related to trade management? Maybe it's a discipline issue for some, and therefore should be categorised as Personal Management? Who knows?

I'm all ears if anyone can put concrete definitions on these subjects, but should there be? We all know as good traders that flexibility is key. Everyone spouts trade what you see (and rightly so). Doesn't this idea alone impose the importance of flexibility and dexterity in trading?

 

[bracke]

Glenn

Thank you for your reply

I take your point about not being too rigid about 60/40 indeed my own experience has taught me that 75/25 is not good enough if the money management is not under control.

I did not add up the points - too lazy

I did not understand your comment about not being able to trade the underlying dow or nasdaq, an explanation would be appreciated.

Regards

bracke

 

[TBS]

I did not understand your comment about not being able to trade the underlying dow or nasdaq, an explanation would be appreciated.

Here we have a dilemma, I don't think the yanks have spreadbetting, therefore they can only trade futures (ful or mini) against cash indices or one of the synthetic stock equivalents (QQQ, Diamonds etc...) - whereas in the UK you can trade a version of cash via a spread better.

 

[Glenn]

What I meant was that you can only trade a derivative of the Dow or Naz, and not the actual indexes themselves.
For example you can trade the Dow Future, or in the case of a spreadbetting company a mixture of the underlying index, the future and their own order book. This is what TBS refers to as the Cash index. But nowhere can you trade the underlying.
If you consider trading the Cash index via a spreadbetting company, I suggest that you do not try to day-trade it, because the way that they price their quotes leaves little room for profit, even in larger moves. Go for position trades - a day or more.

As you didn't tot up Eds points for the year 2002, I find it hard to understand how you can make a judgement on his performance.
For example, if his ratio is 40% winners, 50% losers, 10% flat, that mght seem poor. But if those winners made 10,000 points and the losers only 100 points, then the ratio pales into insignificance.

Glenn

 

[sidinuk]

The problem with Signalwatch is that it is purely theoretical. They look at the dow prices during regular trading hours only. A lot of their winning trades are held over several days but they take no notice of what the futures have done out of hours. In other words, in reality stops could quite easily have been triggered out of hours but they wouldn't recognise that.

 

[BBB]

Although beyond the means of most, it is infact possible to trade the cash indicies - by trading the components of the index. Obviously a hard task for the NASDAQ, but more manageable for DJ.

This is what program trading is all about, generally only practised by larger institutions. All buying and selling is automated I believe - effectively just a computer program whirling away making money when the cash & futures are too far out of sync.