Chicken Curry
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I am approaching the end of year 3.
My account is positive.............just !!
I have made probably 50,000 mistakes but I sure as hell am in the process of correcting them.
I feel stronger now than ever and in a good position to be a very successful trader.
Most of all, I am not in a hurry.
So no need to worry.
SOCRATES
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Good, I am pleased to hear you are doing the right things. Well done. Just carry on.Chicken Curry said:I am approaching the end of year 3.
My account is positive.............just !!
I have made probably 50,000 mistakes but I sure as hell am in the process of correcting them.
I feel stronger now than ever and in a good position to be a very successful trader.
Most of all, I am not in a hurry.
So no need to worry.
Chicken Curry
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Thank you Socrates.
I feel that I have recently turned a corner because I now enter trades with confidence as opposed to the previous fear.
I feel that I have recently turned a corner because I now enter trades with confidence as opposed to the previous fear.
This is just my opinion but i would have to say lack of psychological discipline is the reason most people fail.
Go away and read a few books on basic economics and then a few on technical analysis and you will have about as much knowledge as most "professional" (i.e trade other people's money for a trading firm) traders. Trust me I work with them, one guy didn't even know what a MACD showed when i used it in a sentence the other day!?
Too many people spend an unreasonable amount of time thinking "if i change these stochastic settings a bit i can crack the markets" or "my plan didn't work this afternoon, even though its a tried and tested approach i disagree with it, i know better"
Sorry to use a cliche but the biggest opponent to successful trading is yourself. Nearly all of us are guilty of it. Yesterday for example the person sat next to me told me he was selling his particular market, i suggested it didn't look a good sell (even though it was in a good down trend) and two hours later it was at its daily high, this guy turned to me and said "great trade how much of that move did you get?" I replied "none of it", despite my knowledge telling me one thing I didn't pull the trigger because I talked myself out of the trade, I was a small down on the day and thought i didn't want to take another trade until I saw a "golden opportunity" so missed out on a great trade. Nothing in trading is a sure thing, yet we think we can find sure things, we dont take good trades because we are not disciplined enough to trust our plan and when we get pi***d off with the market we jump in on something that doesn't suit our plan because we think we "should take a trade". This scenario may apply to some of you, some of you it wont but i dare say if you look at all of your worst trades in your career they are trades that made you compromise your plan because you had an adrenaline rush when seeing a golden oportunity or hadn't taken a trade for hours and took it because you felt you had to. These are feelings and feelings are the death of any trader. If your plan says buy you HAVE to buy, after 3 losing trades when your plan says buy even the best of us think "no way" but you have to stick to your plan because this one will work and recoup all the losses the first 3 created. Plans and money management is the easy part but you need to handle the psychology to be a trader.
I listened to one of the most respected traders in the city speak the other week and one very interesting thing he said was when he is hiring traders the thing he looks for is are they the sort of person that you could punch in the face and they would just sit there are carry on with the interview and not question why. Thats quite extreme and a bit of funny thought but it sums up how the best traders can switch of their emotions. This is what 90% of people can't do
The Disciplined Trader is a great read on these sorts of things if youre interested. The place i work makes every new trader read it and when the more expereinced ones go through a bad patch they are told to read it again.
Go away and read a few books on basic economics and then a few on technical analysis and you will have about as much knowledge as most "professional" (i.e trade other people's money for a trading firm) traders. Trust me I work with them, one guy didn't even know what a MACD showed when i used it in a sentence the other day!?
Too many people spend an unreasonable amount of time thinking "if i change these stochastic settings a bit i can crack the markets" or "my plan didn't work this afternoon, even though its a tried and tested approach i disagree with it, i know better"
Sorry to use a cliche but the biggest opponent to successful trading is yourself. Nearly all of us are guilty of it. Yesterday for example the person sat next to me told me he was selling his particular market, i suggested it didn't look a good sell (even though it was in a good down trend) and two hours later it was at its daily high, this guy turned to me and said "great trade how much of that move did you get?" I replied "none of it", despite my knowledge telling me one thing I didn't pull the trigger because I talked myself out of the trade, I was a small down on the day and thought i didn't want to take another trade until I saw a "golden opportunity" so missed out on a great trade. Nothing in trading is a sure thing, yet we think we can find sure things, we dont take good trades because we are not disciplined enough to trust our plan and when we get pi***d off with the market we jump in on something that doesn't suit our plan because we think we "should take a trade". This scenario may apply to some of you, some of you it wont but i dare say if you look at all of your worst trades in your career they are trades that made you compromise your plan because you had an adrenaline rush when seeing a golden oportunity or hadn't taken a trade for hours and took it because you felt you had to. These are feelings and feelings are the death of any trader. If your plan says buy you HAVE to buy, after 3 losing trades when your plan says buy even the best of us think "no way" but you have to stick to your plan because this one will work and recoup all the losses the first 3 created. Plans and money management is the easy part but you need to handle the psychology to be a trader.
I listened to one of the most respected traders in the city speak the other week and one very interesting thing he said was when he is hiring traders the thing he looks for is are they the sort of person that you could punch in the face and they would just sit there are carry on with the interview and not question why. Thats quite extreme and a bit of funny thought but it sums up how the best traders can switch of their emotions. This is what 90% of people can't do
The Disciplined Trader is a great read on these sorts of things if youre interested. The place i work makes every new trader read it and when the more expereinced ones go through a bad patch they are told to read it again.
Hi Tsuntzu,
You made an interesting point about "feeling" and the part it plays in trading. I would class this as intuition (as you rightly said) which is built up with experiencing these situations time and time again. I too did exactly what you did on Friday and scratched a trade that i thought wasn't going the way i wanted it to early on and had i stayed in would have given me a loss. HAving said that i have got out of trades for a small loss or a scratch countless times that would have gone on to give me 7+ ticks had i not been shaken out early on (and in the bund thats something to kick yourself over!)
I think you are right in what you say, however you have to be very good to start playing around with your stop level as you see fit because there is always the chance you are just not giving your position the time it needs to breathe which is damaging in the long run if you do it too often. If you are good at "feeling" the market thats great but for traders without that sort of experience it can open you up to a lot of the emotions we fight (fear and greed) if we dont stick to our stops because there will always be some traders that take it the other way and think "this is such a good level, i know i'm already at my stop but i'm not getting out yet because this has to go up".
As for the trader i spoke to, i'm going to embarass myself and say i'm not entirely sure of his full name (only that his first name was Steven). He was a speaker at a CBOT training course all traders that have been at the firm i'm with for less than a year were asked to attend.
You made an interesting point about "feeling" and the part it plays in trading. I would class this as intuition (as you rightly said) which is built up with experiencing these situations time and time again. I too did exactly what you did on Friday and scratched a trade that i thought wasn't going the way i wanted it to early on and had i stayed in would have given me a loss. HAving said that i have got out of trades for a small loss or a scratch countless times that would have gone on to give me 7+ ticks had i not been shaken out early on (and in the bund thats something to kick yourself over!)
I think you are right in what you say, however you have to be very good to start playing around with your stop level as you see fit because there is always the chance you are just not giving your position the time it needs to breathe which is damaging in the long run if you do it too often. If you are good at "feeling" the market thats great but for traders without that sort of experience it can open you up to a lot of the emotions we fight (fear and greed) if we dont stick to our stops because there will always be some traders that take it the other way and think "this is such a good level, i know i'm already at my stop but i'm not getting out yet because this has to go up".
As for the trader i spoke to, i'm going to embarass myself and say i'm not entirely sure of his full name (only that his first name was Steven). He was a speaker at a CBOT training course all traders that have been at the firm i'm with for less than a year were asked to attend.
SOCRATES
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tsuntzu, you must not take the statement this trader made literally.tsuntzu said:I have to agree with you ...............
That said I would be interested in knowing who the trader was you went and listened to as I am always looking to draw from others experiences. I dont think I would ever resort to punching any of my interviewees in the face to see if they have it though. Quite often a relaxed conversation can give you the clues
What he means is that he is hunting. He is specifically hunting for Merit. A very special kind of Merit, only to be found in very few individuals.
His analogy of punching someone and expecting them not to flinch is just a dramatic device he is using to illustrate his point.
He is searching for very specific qualities that very few people have, and that he is able to identify and recognise instantly, that is what he means.
I am sure that if the gentleman concerned reads this, he will agree with me immediately.
SOCRATES
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OK, to put it another way, he is automatically deselecting when he finds the individual incapable of separating his emotions from his reasoning., because he also knows this inability disables the ability to act in accordance with logical deduction.tsuntzu said:I still don't understand, would you be willing to go into in greater detail for me please
PS. Grandma sends her deepest gratitude and warmest regards.
This dilemma surfaces most clearly when there is pressure.
He is aware of this problem, as additionally this is one of the inabilities that prevents acceptance of discipline imposed and discipline self imposed as by products.
On this basis, he is not willing to progress the candidate, because he already knows, as a result of his experience, the consequences of attempting to progress unsuitable people.
I am pleased Grandma is pleased and the warmest regards are reciprocated.
SOCRATES
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Yes, ultimately it is very simple, not rocket science.tsuntzu said:
But equally it is daunting for many people, and impossible for the great majority, who approach all of this from the wrong perspective, and who persist in approaching it from the wrong angle, repeatedly.
That is why Merit, Ability and Conduct are the criteria required for success and sustained performance, but even if this is explained very clearly and repeatedly, first it does not land, is misinterpreted, and then it is apt to stimulate torrents of unjustified abuse, I respectfully submit.:cheesy:
SOCRATES
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No, not at all.tsuntzu said:What could you possibly be referring too. Not the continual metaphorical punches in the face, surely
As an example in parallel, suppose someone aspires to a very desireable and interesting and potentially rewarding job, not just for the remuneration potential but for many other reasons, which is known to be avalailable, yes ?
Then the applicant is not going to ruin his chances by showing open disinterest + inappropriate or unacceptable behaviour + inability and dereliction at the interview, is he ?
Because if he does, he is certain to be shown the door.
Yet in this profession, it seems many people believe they are able to behave exactly the opposite to what is required, and yet succeed.
That is why Merit Ability and Conduct are the foundation stones that hold up the progressive construction of Success, if you were to think of success as a monument to Achievement.
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SOCRATES
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Tsuntzu, Hello, I do not have a poor memory at all, to the contrary, I do not forget anything.tsuntzu said:Socrates, I do in fact know all this, and unless you have a poor memory, you will recall why. I was, as we like to say 'getting you at it'. I agree with you all the way on what you have posted though, and it is unbelievable that so few acknowledge this. Perhaps with you keeping up the good work on here that may change.
I know you have been leading me in this.
And I am very pleased you have done so.
This is because it is a golden opportunity to bring The Trinity to the notice of those who really need to be reminded of it. Watch what happens next....
Many Thanks, and Very Kind Regards.
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SOCRATES said:Tsuntzu, Hello, I do not have a poor memory at all, to the contrary, I do not forget anything.
I know you have been leading me in this.
And I am very pleased you have done so.
This is because it is a golden opportunity to bring The Trinity to the notice of those who really need to be reminded of it. Watch what happens next....
Many Thanks, and Very Kind Regards.
Socrates
In the past I have thought that I understood what you are saying , and from your PM to me I trust that you know that I understand what you are saying.
However, although I am not religous, I find your comment about the Trinity particularly difficullt to comprehend and therefore disturbing. I want to be challenged but not disturbed.
I would be very grateful if you could try to clarify it, either in PM or publicly, because I really would like to understand what you are saying.
Charlton
SOCRATES
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JumpOff above, in her post has explained it to you very clearly, there is no need for me to expand on it any further, as it should be patently clear that my post has nothing whatsoever to do with religion, it has to do with the self introspective reality traders must face in order not to fail. That's all.Charlton said:
SOCRATES
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No that is not quite right either.wasp said:
I do say it, and I say it very clearlly. It is just that it happens to contradict the majority popular opinion.
Contradicting the majority popular opinion constitutes an affront to the collective sensibilities of crowd behaviour.
The majority popular opinion is that anyone can do it, anyone deserves to succeed,
anyone can aspire, and it does not matter about behaviour, that does not matter either.
Therefore according to the majority popular opinion, all that is needed is everything except what is really needed.
There is another aspect in which the majority popular opinion is off the mark , being that traders are born, not made, except in very exceptional circumstances, but then the individual arrives to trading already with exceptional personal qualities and ultimately overcomes and succeeds, hence the trinity : Merit , Ability and Conduct.
It cannot be explained more clearly than that.
rols
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38 Steps To Possibly Becoming a Successful Trader
A trading friend sent this to me some time ago and may be of relevance to this thread.
I believe it's written by the 'Anonymous Trader'.
1.
We accumulate information--buying books, going to seminars and researching.
2.
We begin to trade with our 'new' knowledge.
3.
We consistently 'donate' and then realize we may need more knowledge or information.
4.
We accumulate more information.
5.
We switch the commodities we are currently following.
6.
We go back into the market and trade with our 'updated' knowledge.
7.
We get 'beat up' again and begin to lose some of our confidence. Fear starts setting in.
8.
We start to listen to 'outside news' & other traders.
9.
We go back into the market and continue to donate.
10.
We switch commodities again.
11.
We search for more information.
12.
We go back into the market and continue to donate.
13.
We get 'overconfident' & market humbles us.
14.
We start to understand that trading success fully is going to take more time and more knowledge then we anticipated.
Most People Will Give up at this Point as
they Realize Work is Involved
15.
We get serious and start concentrating on learning a 'real' methodology.
16.
We trade our methodology with some success, but realize that something is missing.
17.
We begin to understand the need for having rules to apply our methodology.
18.
We take a sabbatical from trading to develop and research our trading rules.
19.
We start trading again, this time with rules and find some success, but overall we still hesitate when it comes time to execute. We start trading again, this time with rules and find some success, but overall we still hesitate when it comes time to execute.
20.
We add, subtract and modify rules as we see a need to be more proficient with our rules.
21.
We go back into the market and continue to donate.We go back into the market and continue to donate.
22.
We start to take responsibility for our trading results as we understand that our success is in us, not the methodology.
23.
We continue to trade and become more proficient with our methodology and our rules.
24.
As we trade we still have a tendency to violate our rips and our results are still erratic.
25.
We know we are close.
26.
We go back and research our rules.
27.
We build the confidence in our rules and go back into the market and trade.
28.
Our trading results are getting better, but we are still hesitating in executing our rules.
29.
We now see the importance of following our rules as we see the results of our trades when we don't follow them.
30.
We begin to see that our lack of success is within us (a lack of discipline in following the rules because of some kind of fear) and we begin to work on knowing ourselves better.
31.
We continue to trade and the market teaches us more and more about ourselves.
32.
We master our methodology and trading rules.
33.
We begin to consistently make money. We begin to consistently make money.
34.
We get a little overconfident and the market humbles us.
35.
We continue to learn our lessons.
36.
We stop thinking and allow our rules to trade for us (trading becomes boring, but successful) and our trading account continues to grow as we increase our contract size.
37.
We are making more money then we ever dreamed to be possible.
38.
We go on with our lives and accomplish many of the goals we had always dreamed of.
A trading friend sent this to me some time ago and may be of relevance to this thread.
I believe it's written by the 'Anonymous Trader'.
1.
We accumulate information--buying books, going to seminars and researching.
2.
We begin to trade with our 'new' knowledge.
3.
We consistently 'donate' and then realize we may need more knowledge or information.
4.
We accumulate more information.
5.
We switch the commodities we are currently following.
6.
We go back into the market and trade with our 'updated' knowledge.
7.
We get 'beat up' again and begin to lose some of our confidence. Fear starts setting in.
8.
We start to listen to 'outside news' & other traders.
9.
We go back into the market and continue to donate.
10.
We switch commodities again.
11.
We search for more information.
12.
We go back into the market and continue to donate.
13.
We get 'overconfident' & market humbles us.
14.
We start to understand that trading success fully is going to take more time and more knowledge then we anticipated.
Most People Will Give up at this Point as
they Realize Work is Involved
15.
We get serious and start concentrating on learning a 'real' methodology.
16.
We trade our methodology with some success, but realize that something is missing.
17.
We begin to understand the need for having rules to apply our methodology.
18.
We take a sabbatical from trading to develop and research our trading rules.
19.
We start trading again, this time with rules and find some success, but overall we still hesitate when it comes time to execute. We start trading again, this time with rules and find some success, but overall we still hesitate when it comes time to execute.
20.
We add, subtract and modify rules as we see a need to be more proficient with our rules.
21.
We go back into the market and continue to donate.We go back into the market and continue to donate.
22.
We start to take responsibility for our trading results as we understand that our success is in us, not the methodology.
23.
We continue to trade and become more proficient with our methodology and our rules.
24.
As we trade we still have a tendency to violate our rips and our results are still erratic.
25.
We know we are close.
26.
We go back and research our rules.
27.
We build the confidence in our rules and go back into the market and trade.
28.
Our trading results are getting better, but we are still hesitating in executing our rules.
29.
We now see the importance of following our rules as we see the results of our trades when we don't follow them.
30.
We begin to see that our lack of success is within us (a lack of discipline in following the rules because of some kind of fear) and we begin to work on knowing ourselves better.
31.
We continue to trade and the market teaches us more and more about ourselves.
32.
We master our methodology and trading rules.
33.
We begin to consistently make money. We begin to consistently make money.
34.
We get a little overconfident and the market humbles us.
35.
We continue to learn our lessons.
36.
We stop thinking and allow our rules to trade for us (trading becomes boring, but successful) and our trading account continues to grow as we increase our contract size.
37.
We are making more money then we ever dreamed to be possible.
38.
We go on with our lives and accomplish many of the goals we had always dreamed of.
