Soc, I wont enter into any debate with you on the preceding comments in this thread that deal directly with trading. Frankly, I'm new to trading and am trying to learn as best I can. However, I don't feel I'm qualified yet to debate the finer points of trading and hence will not attempt to do so.SOCRATES said:
Having said that, I do think the quoted post of yours warrants mention. At no time did charliechan say he was baffled and confused. In fact his commentary throughout the post you quoted shows he does understand niederhoffer's position. Simply because he is viewing that position from a different vantage point to you does not mean his comprehesion is any less valid than yours.
Your assumption that he is confused and baffled shows only an arrogant inability to concede any viewpoint conflicting with yours has any validity. You have time and again admonished others on this site for that very trait.
Further to that, you state you are "not willing to give people what they want, I stubbornly give them what they need, what they truly need, which is to make them think, and reflect". Again, your underlying assumption is that you know what another needs. Surely you of all people must realise that all you can ever know is what you perceive others need to know. This is biased by your own prejudices and hence could only ever be accurate by pure chance and not by any true knowing on your part. Hence to direct others in this way serves no useful function. It is also somewhat egotistical to assume that you know what someone else needs, specially via a medium such as an internet forum board.
Lest you think I am speaking out of turn let me give some of my back ground. I have mentioned before on this site I am a fire fighter by trade. I am heavily involved with training new recruits. Our very lives depend upon the training given. I'm sure anyone could eventually learn to be a fire fighter through introspection and solo practice. The probability is that they would fail and die in the attempt though, perhaps even taking others with them. At this new stage of training it serves no purpose to tell a new recruit he must contemplate why fire burns or why water puts it out or any other such thing. The basics must be learnt first. The fire fighting strategies and techniques. When not to use water, when to use foam, which direction to attack a bush fire from etc. Only once this stage of training has been mastered is there any relevance to contemplating the nature of fire. Further to this, it serves no purpose to allow my ego to interfere with the training. Advising others they will only understand my training once they reach a higher level of fire fighting will most likely get the new recruit killed.
Trading is very similar. One could learn by ones own practice. However, as we all know, most will fail and quite possibly ruin their own financial health and the health of their family in the process. Thus, many come to sites like this one, as I have done, to learn about trading. Advising new recruits to contemplate the trinity of Ability, Merit and Conduct serves no purpose as I have no frame of reference upon which to contemplate. Advising others you could give them all they ask for but they woudn't understand it until they reach your level of trading also serves no function other than to egotistically imply you are far better at trading than they. To be honest, as a new member to this site and with a fresh pair of eyes, I see many of your posts as thinly vieled insults and egotistical essays pertaining to your heightened state of trading ability. Take that as you will. I don't mean it as an insult to you, simply as an attempt to show your what your posts appear to be to the new reader. Perhaps I simply have not had enough experience with your posts to understand your tone through the written word.
One of the stated aims of this website is to funtion as a place for traders to share knowledge, to learn from each other to improve their trading. You have repeatedly stated that after being pestered by the masses to share your knowledge you have been driven to clam up. This being the case then, surely it is easier to simply refrain from posting at all. Each of us has the right to make our own choices, to share our knowledge or not. This is purportedly a place for the sharing of knowledge. If this is not what you wish to do then by all means don't. That being the case surely one would then question if this is the best place for you?
Regards,
PKFFW
SOCRATES
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I have been got out of bed as is often the case late at night because of far eastern time frames. I commend you for your fortitude and bravery and committment as a firefighter, and I understand perfectly your reasoning with regard to training men to do hazardous jobs, and so on.PKFFW said:
However, you are under the most horrendous misconception imaginable.
This is because trading is like nothing you could have experienced ever. When you have had many years under your belt like I have you will arrive at conclusions very different to the ones you are hastily arriving at now.
This is because you are dealing with tangible matters, and not abstract intangibles. It is a very different proposition to deal with the dangerous unknown rather than the dangerous known.
The problem with this topic is that it attracts a lot of people who are driven to it for many different reasons. The reasoning you use in your daily life to do your job to the best of your ability not only for yourself and the fire brigade but also for your men counts for nothing in the perverse world of trading where you have to develop a very special kind of thinking to survive, let alone prosper.
I know this world intimately and for this reason I adopt the posture that I do. This is because there are many pitfulls and nearly all of them are deadly.
Everyone believes in some way or other that they are fit to take on the mission. They very soon find out that the mission is apt to tale them on instead, with outcomes that can be horrific for the unprepared, the impatient and the ineficcient, for starters.
For this reason Merit Ability and Conduct are the self imposed criteria that this profession imposes upon all of us to excercise when in front of a screen. I am sorry if this upsets your sensibilities or your preconceptions, but it is a fact. This world is a very different world to the one most people inhabit in their daily lives.
I am not concerned with criticism. I get a lot of it. I assure you it is like water on a duck's back, except when people are rude and argumentative then they get the works.
I am not expanding on my statement, sorry. You probably would like me to teach all of you.
I am not doing it, and no amount of prodding will persuade me to follow the route you might ideally want for your benefit or any other reason.
Come back when you have at least 10 to 15 years of experience under your belt with this and we will see if your attitude is the same then as it is now. I very much doubt it, well meaning as your are but totally misguided as a result of having incomplete information.
dbphoenix
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Actually, PKFFW, you are quite right, and Bertie is, as usual, quite wrong. Abstract intangibles? Dangerous unknown? These are only a few of the bogeymen that Bertie references to frighten the unwary beginner.
There is nothing mysterious about learning to trade. There is no "ethereal knowing", as Bertie puts it. It's all really very simple, which is not to say that it is easy. A great deal of work must be done, but one needn't be particularly special to do it, unless one considers anyone who actually does it to be special for having done it.
The Big MAC that Bertie has begun to tout is largely nonsense, something to inspire awe in those who are looking for someone to tell them what to do. But, of course, Bertie refuses to tell them what to do. Nice how that works out, isn't it? Could it be instead that Bertie refuses to tell them what to do because he hasn't the slightest idea?
There is much here that will be of benefit to you if you're willing to do the work (not "here" as in this thread, but here on this site). And it won't take you 15 years.
Here's hoping you get a chance to read this before it's deleted.
There is nothing mysterious about learning to trade. There is no "ethereal knowing", as Bertie puts it. It's all really very simple, which is not to say that it is easy. A great deal of work must be done, but one needn't be particularly special to do it, unless one considers anyone who actually does it to be special for having done it.
The Big MAC that Bertie has begun to tout is largely nonsense, something to inspire awe in those who are looking for someone to tell them what to do. But, of course, Bertie refuses to tell them what to do. Nice how that works out, isn't it? Could it be instead that Bertie refuses to tell them what to do because he hasn't the slightest idea?
There is much here that will be of benefit to you if you're willing to do the work (not "here" as in this thread, but here on this site). And it won't take you 15 years.
Here's hoping you get a chance to read this before it's deleted.
Firstly you have been got out of beed late at night by your own choosing. As one who so often implies a level of self awareness the rest of us can only dream of achieving, surely you must realise I have no control over when you get out of bed to check if anyone has replied to a thread you posted in.SOCRATES said:
Secondly once again you make assumptions. How do you know what I have experienced? I may not have many years of experience at trading like you claim to have, that does not mean I have never experienced anything similar to it. All things can be compared. In fact comparing one to another is one of the most fundamental ways in which we seek and gain understanding. If one does not compare something new to something old one has no frame of reference for understanding the new. Hence trading, like all in life, can and must be compared to something known for the seeker to gain understanding. What I may be able to compare it too is completely unknown to you. You have no idea of my age, life experience or anything about me. To assume you know trading is like nothing I could have experienced ever, again shows your arrogant egotism. No offence intended, merely trying to point out how your posts come across.
You stating this does not upset my sensibilities or preconceptions at all. It is very true, my experience of fire fighting in particular holds little in common with trading. I was using my experience to give an example of what they do have in common though. Even my limited time trading has taught me one must first learn the basics before one moves on. Contemplating the nature of the markets does little if one does not know how to read a candlestick chart for example. I was merely trying to point out that advising everyone they need ability without giving any sort of advice on how to develop that ability adds little to the discussion. It is stating the obvious and is akin to telling a budding writer he needs to write better to get published. If you are going to go to the trouble of stating the obvious then isn't it reasonable to expect others to ask you to expand further on that statement? If you do not wish to expand further, as is your right, then don't bother stating the obvious in the first place and certainly don't resort to belittling others when they rightly ask for more information.SOCRATES said:
At no time did I actually ask you to teach me anything. I merely pointed out that this websites entire goal is to be a community for traders to come and share knowledge and learn from each other. Quite obviously you do not wish to do this. That is your right. Given that, I was attempting to hold a mirror up to show you how your posts appear to others. Please do not take this as a criticism of you. Think of it as returning the favour you seem so taken with bestowing upon others, guidance in your own self reflection.SOCRATES said:
My mother always says "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". Maybe you should reflect upon your own reasons for coming to this site, dedicated to sharing and learning, to spend so much time advising everyone that you are not going to share the vast wealth of knowledge at your disposal. Lest you misconstrue my meaning let me be clear. I do not suggest you do this to prod you into revealing your knowledge. There are many here who are willing to share and guide and do so without the condescending attitude and thinly disguised rude remarks. Many articles to read, many books suggested. A veritable fount of information. I'm sure missing out on the benefit of your wisdom will not leave any gaping holes in my trading education. I merely suggest this course of action for your own benefit. In life, as in trading, self awareness is key.
Cheerio,
PKFFW
TheBramble
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Oh yeah? You should have seen my early days....PKFFW said:
And don't worry about Bertie, it's not far eastern timeframes, but more likely far eastern bed-frames that get him up at odd hours. That bamboo is aesthetically pleasing, but it doesn't have the same torsional stiffness that I like when I'm horizontal. Or it could be that complaint which I am told has a similar impact on some gentlemen's sleeping patterns in their later years. Must be what makes him appear to be a little grouchy at times. Be sensitive.
counter_violent
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Finlayson said:
Put Six men to work in a field, each with a shovel.
I guarantee you, One will get rid of (by any means possible) his shovel.
CV
new_trader
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SOCRATES said:
SOCRATES, After reading what you have written I can't decide whether I should be a trader or Fire Fighter. You seem so knowledgeable on both. Perhaps you can tell me which is the safer career option.
tsuntzu said:
That, Sir, is the crux of the whole story. Anyone, who can afford the time to write such an extensive number of posts with so little intellectual merit can only be a charlatan. Charlatans are dangerous to the gullible and should be avoided.
Split
SOCRATES
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All of you carry on arguing if you like, the fact of the matter is that traders are not successful if they do not have the right attitudes and the right aptitudes, that's it. As for those of you who complain you only come here to learn my advice to you is to get yourselves a tutor. If you carefully examine this thead, all the noise is being made by newbies. I am no longer interested in prolonging arguments with newbies. You can now continue to argue amongst yourselves like a whole bunch of naughty children, I have better things to do.
new_trader
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SOCRATES said:
But you do not dispense advice, only platitudes. I have gleaned nothing useful from you apart from what I read on a daily affirmations calendar.
In regard to what you said in another post:
1. Because most people are not particularly intelligent.
Merit?? A person with an average IQ has just as much chance of success as a person with a superior IQ. It would be better to say that a smart person can lose just as much money as a dumb person. In which case intelligence is a moot point.
3. Because most people have a lousy attitude towards hard work. Ability
Attitude is NOT ability.
10. Because most people really do not have a clue. Ability
Lack of knowledge is NOT lack of ability. Learning is the assimilation of knowledge. Everyone can be a successful trader once they know how.
