Trading and Blackjack

sidinuk

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In my opinion there are 3 types of blackjack player: the tourist, the amateur and the professional.

1. The tourist just sits down at the table and starts making random calls depending on how they feel. They don't know basic strategy and so stick on 16 against a 10 or double on 12 because 'they feel lucky'. They ask their mate or the bloke next to them for tips on what to do. Casino's love tourists because they have a huge edge over them and will clean them out fairly quickly.

2. The amateur has taken the time to learn basic strategy and has worked out a decent money management system to keep him playing longer. The edge that the casino has over the amateur is not very large which allows the amateur to have a few good winning streaks which fools him into believing that he might be a naturally gifted blackjack player. This hope keeps him playing long enough for the casino's edge to play out and he'll end up broke.

3. The professional knows basic strategy and money management. He has also learnt to card count effectively. He knows that in certain situations he will actually have the edge over the casino and he exploits those times by betting big. Sometimes he wins, sometimes he losses, but he knows that over time his edge will play out and he will walk away with more than he started.


Trading is exactly the same. There's the 'tourist' who doesn't really understand what he's doing, watches CNBC for tips all day, believes anyone that says they having a winning system that can make him rich, takes too much risk in trades and winds up broke pretty quickly.

There's the amateur who understands how the game works but hasn't yet developed a trading system with an edge. He'll get lucky every now and then and just put the losers down to experience. He may stay in the game long enough to become a professional with an edge, but then again he might not. It depends how lucky he is.

The professional has identified an area where he has a specific edge (which he spotted as an amateur) and now exclusively exploits this edge. He doesn't trade when he doesn't have an edge. His money management then keeps him in the game long enough for this edge to play out, and slowly but surely he takes the money from the tourist and the amateur.

So which are you a tourist, an amateur or a professional? What is your edge?
 
Good post Sid

I'm a pro when I make money, but then lapse to being an amateur until I return full circle having re-learned old lessons, notably, doing trades in a marginal trading enviroment.

It is the same thing as you describe under the "Amateur" section

ie Trading when there aren't trades to do (without an edge).

Losses focus the mind, I stop trading, analyse what I am doing, then head down the pro route for a few weeks/months till I get bored again. Silly really.

These diversions are getting less frequent, but can't see them dissappearing all together. Problem is, need to be attentive to spot the trades, which tempts you to trade when you shouldn't, but doing something to occupy you when there isn't much about often makes me miss trades....
 
Sidnuk,

Ive been a pro many times then becoming an amateur when the system breaks down. I have yet to find a holy grail and for me nothing surpasses the need to constantly change with the markets moods while always sticking to a given set of rules.

I regard a system as one which yells at you to buy and then yells at you to sell again.

Im not there yet....I just make sure I make more than I lose

Splurge
 
I stopped being a tourist when I stopped watching Bloomberg and listening to everyone's opinions.

One of my main problems stopping me progressing to amateur (and beyond :LOL:) was taking notice of 'experts' predictions. It has taken me a long while to believe that no-one knows for sure where the market is going next.

Not sure I have an edge yet but I suspect that when one has an edge coupled with sound money management they become a 'professional'.

FC
 
Re: Sidinuk & Fatcanary posts.
There is more pearls of wisdom in these two posts than 80% (80:20 rule) of books and courses on trading. Well done chaps.
 
I still play blackjack for money occasionally. Usually make £200-£500 in a week's trading on holiday.. I am not a big gambler.

Agree iwth the comments.. sometimes even amateurs get it right.. I watched a drunk win £20,000 in a night altering bets seemingly at random , doubling where he should not have, not drawing when he should etc..

Chance plays more part in cards than trading imo....
 
Sid
well done very good post/thread :D

I agree in the main with the comments, but would add that you need an edge over the house in blackjack, but only over tourists and amateurs in trading.

Two men are running from an escaped lion, man1 says to man2, " what makes you think you can out run the lion?"
Man2 replies "I don`t have to out run the lion, I just have to out run you" :LOL:

Steve
 
By George He's Got It

FatCanary said:
I stopped being a tourist when I stopped watching Bloomberg and listening to everyone's opinions.

One of my main problems stopping me progressing to amateur (and beyond :LOL:) was taking notice of 'experts' predictions. It has taken me a long while to believe that no-one knows for sure where the market is going next.

Not sure I have an edge yet but I suspect that when one has an edge coupled with sound money management they become a 'professional'.

FC

Very true. An excellent post.
 
I agree - you must Evolve .....

I've been trading for a number of years - for my little contribution :- I agree that as a trader you can be influenced in the early years by what you see on these Bulletin Boards and also By Newspapers journalists and Bloomberg - No matter how hard you try whatever you read see or hear - it does influence you.

The only thing that has really helped my trading has been the continued development of trading software and platforms,
from when I started. I must have tried all the Forex & Trading Platforms introduced over the period eliminating most as ineffective or at least lacking in sophistication in one or more areas. In spreadbetting Platforms I've tried Cantor, IG, Deal4Free (the worse) tradindex and ended up with what I consider the Best of a bad bunch finspreads.

I really need to be at one Visually with the Charts I like too see clearly where I am - so many are rubbish but there are some excellent ones - The latest (forex platform) which is totally trading from a chart - is perhaps the most complete one available today, far in advanced of every other system (my personal opinion) is the Visual Trader from www.cms-forex.com you can download a demo.

Only experience and a very long time scale, learning the mistakes and controlling your emotions - coupled with money management make you stay in trading, however a good platform helps.

But I am in complete agreement with the above posts Novices amateurs and survivors are how I classify them ! Forget the theories expounded on these boards even today people who are admitted failures on these boards are now plunging into seminars at over £250 a time - This frightens me - and I do feel for all those mugs who sign up!! But if Vince & Darren can make a killing - its worth a try neither of them have any credibility but constantly get away with it because of the toothless FSA -

Over 7,500 members on these boards - I wonder how many who tried trading have not continued - If they follow 95% of the rubbish I read here from so called experienced traders expounding their theories systems and seminars - Read them for a laugh most are a constant source of amusement to me :LOL:

FTSE Beater & Chartman - You probably and genuinly think you can impart your knowledge (??) for the benefit of new and experienced traders- thats rather sad - you could be teaching them all your bad habits as you have yet to show your proven successful credentials on these boards but 4 or 5 grand is not bad for a saturday! boys!!- you may be very good at contributing to trade2win posts - but teaching trading systems (Dow) we need you to explain your success with it to the people on these boards - You decide!! but Laurel And Hardy springs to mind - My continued amusement is assured. :cool: Incidently FTSE beater looks too young!! is it an old photo ??
 
stevem12 said:
Two men are running from an escaped lion, man1 says to man2, " what makes you think you can out run the lion?"
Man2 replies "I don`t have to out run the lion, I just have to out run you"

Spot on. I made a post (god know's where) the other day about the 5% winning traders and the 95% losing traders. A ratio of 1:20. But you don't have to be 20X smarter than the average punter (tourist/amateur) to consistently make money - just that little bit smarter.
 
judging from today's :eek: :eek: trading, I'm an amateur who thinks
he's a professional but just proved he's a tourist :rolleyes:
 
Well BJ sorry to hear that, but some days you're hot, some you're not!

Good point about 'are we at the level we think we are' though.

Reminds me of the transition we all go through in anything we set out to master (like driving a car, trading, etc.)

From Unconscious Incompetence to Conscious Incompetence then to Conscious Competence and finally to Unconscious Competence.

I think that's about right...
 
sidinuk said:


The professional has identified an area where he has a specific edge and now exclusively exploits this edge. He doesn't trade when he doesn't have an edge. His money management then keeps him in the game long enough for this edge to play out, and slowly but surely he takes the money from the tourist and the amateur.

What is your edge?

Nasdaq level 2 direct access.

I can see whats going to happen before the tourist and the amateur can from from their intraday charts.That edge gets me in a trade before they see the move coming and gives me the same edge when getting out.
 
BJ as a game has a corelation to trading but nobody as usual has outlined what are the relevent points .

To win a BJ you must count cards , ie ) give big point values to big cards 10 to ace , neutral value to medium cards and none to small ones .

the bigger the score , the more you bet , the less the score , little or nothing that you bet.

that 's it generally . But as with anything that makes you win , it takes a lot of discpline and time , with small to medium pots , you may have to spend hours at a casino playing non stop .

I find that you can 2x your money , but you will be watched and if the house does not like what you are up to - you'll be banned.

a game more closely related is poker.

cue someone , as always - start a thread inspired by a WS article . nah just joking ... or am I ?
 
Cards have sod all to do with trading. 2 types of people gamble-1.the house or bookie,and 2. the loser-anything else is urban myth/statistical anomoly/laser scanner. Most methods of trading work,as does a martingale at the casino or betting shop-you just need a big enough pot not to get blown up,and the ability to manage losses.
I know you're thinking what about LTCM?-well they could have weathered the loss with enough funds.
Contentious,moi?
 
GammaJammer,

Great analysis of sound money management but most of the posts in this Forum state that once one starts to think of the monetary value of a trade it throws one of course and clouds judgement. I have tried to follow (and still trying to) follow what you have espoused above but it is a long and hard road to master. In many ways it is like the Blackjack player who says that a gambling chip is a chip and the value of each chip is of no relevance; I have always disagreed with this view and believe that those that consider the monetary/nominal value of chips/units/stakes etc. give themselves the right perspective at all times.

Individuals will always have diverse strategies they employ, various money management principles and instruments they trade; the difference in being profitable in the long run or not must surely be - Understanding, Consistency and Money Management (encompassing what we all pretend to know).
 
If you don't know what you're doing, 'money management' as most describe it will only prolong the inevitable. This is why losers put so much emphasis on money management. It is not a crutch to be leaned on when consoling yourself that you are sure you are doing the right thing.

Out of all the pillars of trading, I'd give money management an equal 10% along side method of entry. Anyone care to guess where the remaining 80% lies?

Money management concerns itself with being over or under committed. Nothing else. Psychology doesn't even come into it (where did that come from :confused: ).

If all the rest of the pillars are in place, you hardly have to give money management much thought at all.

As a more experienced trader once told me: 'newbies are better off putting all their equity into every trade - its the only way they will ever learn anything'. At the time I din't think it was a wise thing to say. On reflection it is.
 
BJ and poker skills are directly beneficial to trading . Anyone who says otherwise is talking through the wrong end of his body .
 
BJ and poker skills are directly beneficial to trading . Anyone who says otherwise is talking through the wrong end of his body .

Do you mean talking through their feet ? :D


Paul
 
Cards and trading are completely different- I trade for a living,and know when a trade looks right-I don't have to trade every day,every hour,or even every month. A card game is an ongoing process,where one is forced to make decisions based on what you are dealt. A good trader doesn't have to take what is dealt-today being a case in point for me as I spent 8 hours not trading. May you all be profitable
 
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