To re-invigorate UK business

new_trader

Legendary member
6,665 1,489
This will reinvigorate business profit margins driving stock prices up. That's where it ends though because on the other side of the coin are workers expected to live off a wage they can't. So the consequences of abolishing the national minimum wage is poverty, or another way to put it is a more unequal society. It is in the interest of everyone to have people earning enough to live off. Remove this and criminal activity goes up, child poverty goes up, and the economy doesn't benefit from this. You only need to look at Scandinavia countries where taxes are high and minimum wages high. Go visit those counties and see how it is then you will see what you are saying only favours the wealthy and won't carry through to the economy.

I don't think you watched the video.

  • Wages are the price of labour and like any market it is the economic law of supply and demand that determines the price.
  • When a government artificially raises the price of labour through minimum wage laws the natural consequence is it reduces demand for that labour. i.e. The few who keep their job benefit from the higher wage, but the unseen consequence is that many will lose their job or never get hired in the first place. Surely a low paying job is better than no job?
  • Industries increasingly employ automation to replace the low skilled jobs that the minimum wage has made too expensive.
 

Pat494

Legendary member
14,621 1,578
Surely it is the prime function of Govt. to protect the welfare of their citizens.
So whether it is attack from abroad or suffering at home then they should act accordingly.
The minimum wage is exploiting poor people and is a new type of slavery and practised by the same elites.
Making fortunes for themselves while others suffer.
 

new_trader

Legendary member
6,665 1,489
Surely it is the prime function of Govt. to protect the welfare of their citizens.
So whether it is attack from abroad or suffering at home then they should act accordingly.
The minimum wage is exploiting poor people and is a new type of slavery and practised by the same elites.
Making fortunes for themselves while others suffer.

Government cannot repeal economic laws no matter how distasteful you find them. You hate the idea of automation, you hate the idea of abolishing the minimum wage, you think "do-gooding" eventually drives a country down to third world status yet you think the Government's prime function is "do-gooding"...
 

FXX

Experienced member
1,267 259
I don't think you watched the video.

  • Wages are the price of labour and like any market it is the economic law of supply and demand that determines the price.
  • When a government artificially raises the price of labour through minimum wage laws the natural consequence is it reduces demand for that labour. i.e. The few who keep their job benefit from the higher wage, but the unseen consequence is that many will lose their job or never get hired in the first place. Surely a low paying job is better than no job?
  • Industries increasingly employ automation to replace the low skilled jobs that the minimum wage has made too expensive.
I watched to the point of them stating wages being set by the value of a product and the contribution made. Not only is it flawed because the ceo does jack 5hit contribution towards the end product and he\she sure as hell isn't being compensated proportionally with effort in producing the end product.

The minimum wage is there to protect the most vulnerable people. We are not some 3rd world 5hithole or a draconian Chinese state where Labour is a very cheap commodity. We all enjoy the freedoms it brings through reduced crime and corruption, as well as being mature enough to see that paying someone below a basic survival rate is wrong. What you also don't realise it would ultimately increase welfare and therefore taxes.

Uganda has the lowest wages int he world, there is no min wage there and in 2017 it was $22 a year. I bet that's what you'd pay your employees on the lower end if you could.

but let's look at the evidence and take USA as an example. They experienced the highest employment in a generation before the virus. The min wage ranges (diff by state) had no impact on it so what you are saying is rubbish. Demand for labour is proportional to the demand In the economy. Demand for products and services leads to business investment, part of which is labour. in other words the labour market is defined by the economic cycles but more recently includes technology.

now let's take the Ugandan company paying individuals less than 2 dollars a day. All that's happening there is the owners are waking away rich while the people doing the graft barely survive. The city at night is a no go area because you will be a victim of crime. So people are afraid to go out at night and they are also affraid of traveling because of hijackings. Is that the type of economy you want? In South Africa there is no minimum wage and still the country sits with over 30 percent unemployment. Do you want to know the effects of masses of people living on less than a minimum wage.

The answer is crime and corruption. People there have to have security gates on their bedroom doors (the ones who can afford it). homes are like mini prison camps with bars over windows, security fencing and rapid armed response alarms. this is what no minimum wage brings. People living in shacks because they haven't a hope in the world of affording rent even in a 5hithole.

that's your utopian dream isn't it?
 
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J Livermore

Active member
160 52
I prefer " The Pirate Ship " system where all the employees get the same wage except the Captain, who gets double. That is AFTER the company expenses etc. are paid. The health of the company is put first not last. Also the greedy bosses are stopped from sucking all the wealth out of the company and then flogging it off for even more personal profit.
It is unfair to pay the good workers the same amount of salary as other workers who don’t put in as much effort. You seem to be under the belief that everyone’s labor is equally valuable.

What about effort equality? Not everyone works as hard or as smart. Some workers are happy to put in overtime while others ditch the workplace at quitting time. Then there is the experience issue. A six month employee should not earn the same salary as a highly seasoned employee who’s been at his company ten years or more.

Also there is a level of competency issue. Some workers don’t have the full skill sets or natural talent as the best workers in a given industry and don’t do as good a job.
 

new_trader

Legendary member
6,665 1,489
People who understand the LAW of supply and demand and basic economics are the only people who understand the argument against the minimum wage. The law of supply and demand is not my opinion.


  • The law of supply and demand, one of the most basic economic laws, ties into almost all economic principles in some way.
  • The law of demand states that, if all other factors remain equal, the higher the price of a good, the less people will demand that good. In other words, the higher the price, the lower the quantity demanded.

"The price per unit of time that a particular kind of labour commands in the market depends not only upon the technical efficiency of the labourer but also upon the demand for the particular services that he is able to furnish, upon their relative scarcity, and upon the supply of other productive agents."

In other words: When the Government artificially raises the price per unit of time for a particular kind of labour, the demand for that labour is reduced or even eliminated depending on the supply of other productive agents, like outsourcing to a cheaper country or using automation.

The end result is that a minimum wage reduces employment, it does not lead to economic prosperity. Why does this thread even exist when all the things that I am arguing against already exist?🤔
 
C

cantagril

0 0
I prefer " The Pirate Ship " system where all the employees get the same wage except the Captain, who gets double. That is AFTER the company expenses etc. are paid. The health of the company is put first not last. Also the greedy bosses are stopped from sucking all the wealth out of the company and then flogging it off for even more personal profit.
Aksherly, you have somewhat over-simplified the Pirate ship hierarchy of remuneration, which itself was part of the Pirate "code" (that has been so mangled by Johnny Depp and friends) and to me it does indeed make pretty good sense in its true form. I won't attempt to do your research for you but the link below leads to a docco that itself has some grown-up sources to explore for those interested in such matters:

"Booty was divided according to skill and duty.The captain and the quartermaster received between one and a half and two shares, and all other positions of name received one and a quarter share each. Regular crew members received one share."



Note to NT: "Less Marx, More Mises ....and good dollop of Captain Morgan" :)
 
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Pat494

Legendary member
14,621 1,578
Aksherly, you have somewhat over-simplified the Pirate ship hierarchy of remuneration, which itself was part of the Pirate "code" (that has been so mangled by Johnny Depp and friends) and to me it does indeed make pretty good sense in its true form. I won't attempt to do your research for you but the link below leads to a docco that itself has some grown-up sources to explore for those interested in such matters:

"Booty was divided according to skill and duty.The captain and the quartermaster received between one and a half and two shares, and all other positions of name received one and a quarter share each. Regular crew members received one share."



Note to NT: "Less Marx, More Mises ....and good dollop of Captain Morgan" :)
Having worked in big and small companies I noticed that a lot of time and energy is wasted by people fighting each other for higher positions (wages ) and or survival. The crew being paid the same would lessen that hopefully. No need for Union representation or Boards of Directors as all major company decisions by the Captain could be checked openly by the crew and voted on.
 
C

cantagril

0 0
Having worked in big and small companies I noticed that a lot of time and energy is wasted by people fighting each other for higher positions (wages ) and or survival. The crew being paid the same would lessen that hopefully. No need for Union representation or Boards of Directors as all major company decisions by the Captain could be checked openly by the crew and voted on.
Alas, alack!..... and sundry similar expressions of distress and discomfort - isn't this Marx? The cadre had privileges that went with their positions and the workers got the stipend that was supposedly their "share". As we all know, the 70 year experiment in idealism started badly and deteriorated ever after, up until the point where the people decided that life under the reviled capitalistic systems was more desirable than their own (theoretically fairer) one.

...and isn't this just the problem? Ideals are just that, i.e ideal.. and often have fuck all to do with any reality - the particular reality that effs everybody equally (Marx would be happy!) is human nature. Imho, any attempt at fair play in whatever sphere - including the Re-invigoration of the High Street - has to take into account the "nasty, brutish and short" aspects of the equation and one of the least palatable (to politically correct regimes of any kind) is that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Creating and managing a stable society means that the individual and the "It's all about me" culture are of secondary importance in good governance, however un-popular that may be.

History shows us that re-invigoration and renewal generally tend to be preceded by stagnation or decline and in that period people suffer. When the uptrend engages then the suffering doesn't end but it's usually a different bunch that gets to be on the muddy end of the stick.
 

meowster

Newbie
9 2
Having worked in big and small companies I noticed that a lot of time and energy is wasted by people fighting each other for higher positions (wages ) and or survival. The crew being paid the same would lessen that hopefully. No need for Union representation or Boards of Directors as all major company decisions by the Captain could be checked openly by the crew and voted on.
* "I noticed that a lot of time and energy is wasted by people fighting each other for higher positions (wages ) and or survival."
That is an interesting point on productivity loss that I have thought about briefly but don't have an immediate answer to. You would have thought that big business HR departments or senior bosses would have worked out how many man hours are wasted on such activity by now and come up with some solution like what is done for health and safety in avoiding sicktime.

Government cannot repeal economic laws no matter how distasteful you find them. You hate the idea of automation, you hate the idea of abolishing the minimum wage, you think "do-gooding" eventually drives a country down to third world status yet you think the Government's prime function is "do-gooding"...

new_trader:​

A couple of short vignettes on the minimum wage problem at least from a US perspective. It can't be much different in the UK which in some ways is a more free market than the US.

Who Does a $15 Minimum Wage Help?
Point 3 in this video I can personally vouch for. The irony is that with a minimum wage you can no longer do point 3 unless you do an internship to get the same result- and we all know only kids with wealthier parents can support them through the internship period.
I knew guys who were working in the post room and who ended up front office brokers.
"If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow."

Minimum Wage Cost Me My Job
 
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new_trader

Legendary member
6,665 1,489
* "I noticed that a lot of time and energy is wasted by people fighting each other for higher positions (wages ) and or survival."
That is an interesting point on productivity loss that I have thought about briefly but don't have an immediate answer to. You would have thought that big business HR departments or senior bosses would have worked out how many man hours are wasted on such activity by now and come up with some solution like what is done for health and safety in avoiding sicktime.


new_trader:​

A couple of short vignettes on the minimum wage problem at least from a US perspective. It can't be much different in the UK which in some ways is a more free market than the US.

Who Does a $15 Minimum Wage Help?
Point 3 in this video I can personally vouch for. The irony is that with a minimum wage you can no longer do point 3 unless you do an internship to get the same result- and we all know only kids with wealthier parents can support them through the internship period.
I knew guys who were working in the post room and who ended up front office brokers.
"If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow."

Minimum Wage Cost Me My Job

Excellent videos @meowster (y)

This is another video worth listening to:

Go to 15:04 to hear how Tom Woods uses his impeccable logic to address the "moral" argument used by politicians and @Pat494 and @FXX

The Fallacies of the Living Wage​

 

Pat494

Legendary member
14,621 1,578
The US capitalist system you seem to be promoting is not only very unfair but also now uncompetitive. The US had a fairly easy time out competing old European ways and systems in the 19th and 20th century. But just look at how the US set in its over rated system has made the rich too rich and the poor too poor. There was a middle class but this has eroded away with rust belt industries. This is not because of the minimum wage socialism but rather from stiffer competition from the BRIC countries. Trump is desperately trying to encourage companies and therefore jobs back to the US by trade sanctions. Whatever happened to your winning capitalist competitive system ? In a word it started losing badly and wealth flowed out of Europe and the US to China etc.
The Pirate Ship system encourages a team effort rather than the few hogging the wealth. The richest 1% own 90% of the planet's wealth. Time for a radical change. Ask any winning Football manager and he will tell you that winning these days is ALL about teamwork. 1 good player can't do it on his own.
 

new_trader

Legendary member
6,665 1,489
The US capitalist system you seem to be promoting is not only very unfair but also now uncompetitive. The US had a fairly easy time out competing old European ways and systems in the 19th and 20th century. But just look at how the US set in its over rated system has made the rich too rich and the poor too poor. There was a middle class but this has eroded away with rust belt industries. This is not because of the minimum wage socialism but rather from stiffer competition from the BRIC countries. Trump is desperately trying to encourage companies and therefore jobs back to the US by trade sanctions. Whatever happened to your winning capitalist competitive system ? In a word it started losing badly and wealth flowed out of Europe and the US to China etc.
The Pirate Ship system encourages a team effort rather than the few hogging the wealth. The richest 1% own 90% of the planet's wealth. Time for a radical change. Ask any winning Football manager and he will tell you that winning these days is ALL about teamwork. 1 good player can't do it on his own.

You either don't read, or don't understand anything I have posted because I haven't got the foggiest idea what you mean by "The US capitalist system you seem to be promoting". The USA is nowhere near the kind of free-market Capitalism I would like to see. In fact the USA is a poster child for your earlier comment about "Do-gooding" Governments reducing a country to third world status.

The USA was once the worlds richest country and had the highest standard of living, and it got there without any of the "do-gooding" Government programs that exist today. Look at the charts and you will see how the standard of living for the average American has got progressively worse as The Government involved itself more and more in affairs of the economy...:rolleyes:

I am quoting from memory, but one economist figured that in the early 1900's the US Government only accounted for around 4% of GDP...today that figure is a whopping 40%...if you think this is the kind of US Capitalism I am promoting then you need your head examined.
 

FXX

Experienced member
1,267 259
People who understand the LAW of supply and demand and basic economics are the only people who understand the argument against the minimum wage.

The end result is that a minimum wage reduces employment, it does not lead to economic prosperity. Why does this thread even exist when all the things that I am arguing against already exist?🤔

Oh @new_trader, it is always comical discussing fundamentals with.

As an FYI - Only 5-7% of the workforce is on minimum wage - so your direction of its removal magically boosting the economy is rather, shall we say, laughable. Not least because the business cycle is largely determined by the debt cycle, and corvid-19 has unnaturally burdened businesses with increased debt, therefore, less likely to increase investment which means no growth-related hiring. Removing it will not increase employment because firms can't legally retrench and rehire for the same roles at a lower wage because this would lead to employment tribunals through unfair dismissal claims.

But let's entertain your ridiculous assertions with tangible studies using data, not a Brittanica link or some video!

Evidence shows that where applicable, minimum wages are passed onto the consumer and that a 10% increase in minimum wages only translates to a 0.4% change in price on average - source study backing this is (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=524803).

Economist Alan Krueger nd a colleague produced a paper on this comprising of 7 studies in the 90s https://journalistsresource.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/njmin-aer.pdf
it concluded

"Contrary to the central prediction of the
textbook model of the minimum wage
, but
consistent with a number of recent studies
based on cross-sectional time-series comparisons
of affected and unaffected markets
or employers, we find no evidence that the
rise in New Jersey's minimum wage reduced
employment at fast-food restaurants in the
state
. Regardless of whether we compare
stores in New Jersey that were affected by
the $5.05 minimum to stores in eastern
Pennsylvania (where the minimum wage was
constant at $4.25 per hour) or to stores in
New Jersey that were initially paying $5.00
per hour or more (and were largely unaffected by the new law), we find that the
increase in the minimum wage increased
employment.
"


Another study in 2010 http://escholarship.org/uc/item/86w5m90m comprised on analysis of actual data concluded

"For the range of minimum wage increases over the past several decades, methodologies using local com-parisons provide more reliable estimates by controlling for heterogeneity in employment growth. These estimates sug-gest no detectable employment losses from the kind of minimum wage increases we have seen in the United States."

There are many more studies showing the old outdated models, which is the literature you are basing your argument off, doesn't correlate with the studies done on the subject using employment data. Furthermore, there are studies that show when you uplift the lowest workers, you increase the standard of living and this leads to greater prosperity.
 
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Pat494

Legendary member
14,621 1,578
I see the US as a Capitalist system. However as far as I can gather you would prefer an even more extreme Capitalist system.
Whereas I am giving an alternative choice and a less Capitalist system by NOT promoting the self and individual greed so much. Different countries will make different choices obviously to aid themselves as well as possible.
 
 
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