Getting Started The Market Holy Grail: Fact or Fiction

Introduction
The Holy Grail is quite possibly the most famous piece of Christian mythology. Almost every archaeologist, historian, Christian and capitalist would love to find it, and many dedicate their lives towards its pursuit. It is said that those who drink from The Grail will be blessed with eternal life, whether that is spiritual or physical is open for debate (unless you have read "The Da Vinci Code" where the last thing you would do is drink from it!). Perhaps that explains why Indiana Jones may appear in a fourth film despite his increasing age.

When we talk about the Market Holy Grail we don't mean a cup that promises ever lasting life, more a cup that you can dip into the markets and pull out a never ending supply of money. But wait a minute, this sounds too good to be true? Or does it? Warren Buffett and George Soros have made billions from their investments in financial markets, maybe they found The Grail. The Internet is teaming with market "gurus" who offer to teach the secrets of The Grail for a princely sum of around $250 a month. So why do so many traders retire frustrated, mentally exhausted and a few thousand dollars worse off, never having found what looks so readily available to them?

The reason why traders? attempts are often futile is because they spend their time and money looking in the wrong place. By saying they are looking in the wrong place implies that there is a right place and we are not dealing with a myth. So where is it? Fear not intrepid explorer, we will show you where to look. If you concentrate hard enough you might even see the treasure map hidden within our words.

What the Market Holy Grail Is Not
The majority of first time traders will go through a process like this, or something very similar:
  1. Read a little about the market and decide to try you luck.
  2. Discover that the Internet is full of magic indicators and gurus.
  3. Start trading and realise that it is a lot harder than the gurus said it would be.
  4. Come to the conclusion that this strategy doesn't work and try again or...
  5. Give up with a sore head and a sore wallet.

Image1-104.jpg


Confusing isn't it? That is because, as you probably already know, learning to trade is a very confusing business. It often seems like the more you learn the more confused you become. The more confused you become the more you think you should learn and so on. If you are unable to get a combination of indicators to work surely someone has a combination you can buy. Alas, no matter how hard you try, following either of these two paths never seems to work. That is because the Market Holy Grail is not an indicator, strategy, method or charting package.

So What is it?
If it is not something that you will find on your charts then it is not something that you will be able to understand after one night's study. Just as many people dedicate an enormous amount of energy towards researching the Christian myth of the Grail, you will have to do the same when pursuing the market incarnation. That is a very important point; being a successful trader isn't easy, nobody ever said it would be. That is why the rewards for becoming consistently profitable are so high. There is no doubt that most, if not all, combinations of indicators work. However that does not mean that they work all of the time but they do work well in specific conditions. The success of every indicator-based strategy is dependent on your ability to read the conditions of the market and apply what you have learned. It is also down to the internal thought process that occurs every time you come to place a trade. So what is the magic factor? The answer is: you.

What Does This Mean?
Wait a minute; we can't be serious, can we? Well let us think about it for a while. Think back to the last time you tried to trade a "Holy Grail" system or a system you researched and back tested yourself. If it failed how many of the following weaknesses hindered your efforts:

Inexperience: No matter how many times you read that trading manual nothing can prepare you for live trade. As all of your indicators begin to line up you get confused, miss signals and react too quickly or too late. After your first hectic day you realise that your strategy was OK and you can attribute your loss to your lack of experience.

Greed: Buying a strategy almost inevitably comes with a statement telling you how you can make a boatload of money with relatively little work. When designing your own strategy you will automatically look for the highest winning ratio rather than best risk/ reward. This will lead to classic over trading (if you are destined to win why not increase your earnings by trading more), inability to cut losses (your strategy predicts market direction so all you have to do is wait and this loss will turn into a profit) and believing the market will move further in your direction than it actually does (setting a target that gives you as much profit as you want rather than as much profit as the market can give you).

Fear: After being burned a few times by the greed and inexperienced stage you will have probably changed strategies at least once. After all it isn't your fault it must just be a dodgy strategy. Now it is time to hit the books and find another combination of indicators to use. The more you learn the more indicators you can find that help you make money. Or if you prefer to buy another "Grail" system it must be more complicated like something the professionals use. Unfortunately all of the extra knowledge, indicators and complication leave you almost paralysed when it comes to entering a trade. Coupled with the losses you incurred during your "greed phase" entering a trade becomes scary. That moment of doubt where you question your indicators or the market's recent behaviour causes you to miss your entry and forget about the trade altogether. As you know only too well this trade was the best of the day or possibly even the whole week!

Another common mistake associated with fear is late entry. All of the characteristics of complete failure to enter are there but rather than miss the trade completely you enter late. This completely destroys your risk reward and an unsuccessful trade costs you much more than it would if you had entered at the correct time.

Just when you thought fear could only influence your entries it turns around and has a bite at your exits too. Exiting too early can cause you to take an unnecessary loss. Picture the trade: you enter correctly and the market moves a little way in your direction. All of a sudden the market turns around hard and your position starts to represent a loss. Rather than sticking to your stop loss (your defined risk) you exit early and think that you have saves yourself some financial pain. Just as you exit or just before your stop loss is triggered the market turns on its heels and ends up reaching your initial target.

Scenario two causes you to take your profit too early. The market approaches your target and goes through a natural correction. As you see the market eat into your profit you decide enough is enough and you get out while you are still in the black. Of course the market resumes its initial direction and hits your original target.

Fear will cause you to develop a lack of faith in your chosen method. Depending on how many times this has happened before you will either go back to the drawing board with your method or lose faith in your ability to trade at all. You start to believe that surely nobody makes money from trading.

This is the point at which many traders have what they call the "aha moment". All of a sudden it becomes clear that successful trading isn't down to the system at all it is down to the person using the system. This is the moment when each trader realises where the Grail can be found.

Finding The Grail:
Do we need a system at all?

If the secret to the market Holy Grail lies within each trader then what is the point of a system at all? Simply put a system represents a reason to enter the market. If you don't have a system then you have no reason to enter the market at all.

The Basis of a System:
Every system should be comprised of the following:

Trading science: Whether you use technical indicators or fundamental analysis this is your science. It doesn't have to be complicated; in fact simple is often much more effective. This will generate your buy or sell signal.

Money Management: Arguably more important than your signal is how to manage the resultant trade. You have to set strictly governed rules that determine how much of your trading capital you will risk per trade. Part of money management is your risk: reward ratio. If you have a risk: reward ratio of 1:4 then a profit factor of 0.5 (50%) you will be banking a very handsome profit indeed!

Discipline: If you don't have the discipline to stick to your trading science or your money management then your system may as well never have existed. Being disciplined will help eradicate late entries and early exits. In short it is the most important factor in every system.

It is very hard to apply discipline to something you have no confidence in. Therefore we recommend starting from scratch with a new strategy, something simple. This does not mean you should fork out hundreds of Dollars on a new system. Our Scalping For Forex ebook outlines a proven, simple approach that is an ideal tool to help you on your path to the Market Grail.

There is No Substitute For Experience No matter which strategy you use to help build your discipline and money management there is no substitute for experience of the market you are involved with. This experience includes knowledge of price action, chart patterns and momentum cycles to name but a few. For example, if you are trading using a momentum breakout strategy there is no point in trading during a slow, choppy market. This is something that you can only learn from experience of price action and you shouldn't hope to grasp it over night. Once again, trading isn't easy and it certainly is not a get rich quick scheme.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Pat494 said:
One should imho have goals/targets in life or living devolves into merely existing. The journey in life is to attain something or get part way to perfection. It gives energy and purpose to life.
I aim for 100% success in trading, even while knowing its not possible. It is however possible to get better and better at it. There lies the fascination of trading for me and perhaps for you.........

Hmm, I was going to post the attached document over in the Psychology Section as per my last post, but maybe this is the place for it.

As the saying goes: A Picture Speaks A Thousand Words
 
CYOF said:
As the saying goes: A Picture Speaks A Thousand Words
CYOF,
Indeed it does, although the white out type is hard to read!
It's interesting (to me) that you end on 'Continuous Improvement'. I am always bemused by all the excitement caused by 'Vendors' on this site. Without wishing to take the thread off on a well worn tangent, I'm mindful of a term any professional folk will be very familiar with: 'Continual Professional Development' - CPD. Even when I'm trading full time (soon, I hope) and I've got more wonga than a person heavily laden with muchos wonga, I'll still continue to go on courses, be they freebies offered by brokers or private traders offering high priced 1-2-1's. Obviously, there are some rip off merchants out there and care must be taken to ensure that one's money is well spent - regardless of how much one has to throw around. Caveat emptor and all that. Me, I want to know what you know, and you over there, and YOU as well! Some knowledge comes my way for free (thank you T2W members!) and some I have to pay for. That's life: swings and roundabouts.

Viz a viz the grail; this implies something static, something timeless. Once you are able to harness the magic of the grail, then you are immortal and beyond harms reach. Dream on! The market is not static and you are not immortal. What works today may not necessarily work tomorrow. This is a dynamic environment in which we are playing, where the socio economic and political sands are forever shifting. Don't stand still; keep moving (forward!), keep learning. Yes, I believe there is a holy grail and, like a Russian doll, there is a smaller parcel inside a smaller parcel inside a smaller parcel, etc. Eventually, you get to what must, surely, be the very last one. Carefully, you unwrap the cool, shiny slim object and study it intently. What you see is a microcosm of the market as a whole, all of what it hopes for and fears, neatly rolled up into one very special package: YOU!

Okay, so I've enjoyed a glass or two of wine this evening, but am I wrong . . .?
;)
Tim.
 
Yes Tim,

The white text was intentional - one has to look closely to read it - makes one think a little :cheesy:

There are many successful business models out there that large successful companies use - and one of the main focus areas is in CI - or CPD, and many other naming conventions - but all are more or less singing off the same hymn sheet.

lets take a look at Microsoft - the most successful business model there is.

A key to the success of Microsoft has been their development of the Microsoft Solutions Framework - the MSF model.

The MSF model is the most successful model for implementing IT solutions - and has also been used by many industries outside of the IT sector.

Have to go now - so I will pick up later.

Regards,
 
equtrader said:
We aren't dealing with metaphysics or psychology here. A Grail is a Grail regardless of whether someone doesn't succeed with it. Someone else will.

Joe

Isn't this somewhat of a contradiction? If a Grail is a Grail then anyone should succeed with it, shouldn't they? What is the difference between the "someone" that doesn't succeed with it and the "Someone else" that will?
 
equtrader said:
We aren't dealing with metaphysics or psychology here. A Grail is a Grail regardless of whether someone doesn't succeed with it. Someone else will.

Joe

Isn't this somewhat of a contradiction? If a Grail is a Grail then anyone should succeed with it, shouldn't they? What is the difference between the "someone" that doesn't succeed with it and the "Someone else" that will?
 
CYOF said:
Yes Tim,

The white text was intentional - one has to look closely to read it - makes one think a little :cheesy:

There are many successful business models out there that large successful companies use - and one of the main focus areas is in CI - or CPD, and many other naming conventions - but all are more or less singing off the same hymn sheet.

lets take a look at Microsoft - the most successful business model there is.

A key to the success of Microsoft has been their development of the Microsoft Solutions Framework - the MSF model.

The MSF model is the most successful model for implementing IT solutions - and has also been used by many industries outside of the IT sector.

Have to go now - so I will pick up later.

Regards,

To finish - and to cut short - most successful businesses use a model or framework to assist with achieving their targeted goals and objectives.

Therefore, it may be wise to consider a similar approach for trading.

After taken Tim's comments on board - thanks for making me think some more Tim :cheesy: I have revised the PVG document as follows - so that the model now starts to encompass some trading specific concepts.

As with all endeavours, the final PLAN/S will be different for all traders - in the same way as different Companies will have their individual Business Requirements, based on what they actually do and produce.

But, the framework used will be the same in all cases, albeit in a different terminology or naming convention - proven models that deliver results.

There is no need to re-invent the wheel - but you must first be aware that these tried and tested frameworks are out there - just waiting to be used by those who have the insight to take notice!

Think outside the box - and always keep an open mind towards "There Is Always A Better Way To Do Things" - but one must be prepared to do some work, and not relying on other people to "SHOW ME" how to do it.

No matter what one is "SHOWN" how to, the end results will be totally dependant on how one carries out the required "ACTIONS", and how one carries out the required "ACTIONS" will be totally dependant on how one "THINKS".

So, as numerous trading demonstrations have shown (according to what you read), when you show 500 people in a room how to trade correctly using a proven profitable trading system, the results from these traders will vary dramatically - why - I will leave you figure that one out for yourself ;)

What is the real Holy Grail then, in relation to trading?

I know what it is for me, but then again, I do my own thinking as I have long realised that NO ONE ELSE CAN DO MY THINKING FOR ME!
 
timsk said:
CYOF,
Even when I'm trading full time (soon, I hope) and I've got more wonga than a person heavily laden with muchos wonga, I'll still continue to go on courses, be they freebies offered by brokers or private traders offering high priced 1-2-1's. Obviously, there are some rip off merchants out there and care must be taken to ensure that one's money is well spent - regardless of how much one has to throw around. Caveat emptor and all that. Me, I want to know what you know, and you over there, and YOU as well! Some knowledge comes my way for free (thank you T2W members!) and some I have to pay for. That's life: swings and roundabouts.

Tim the above are some very good points for discussion:

Another well known tried and tested model in the Business Improvement Arena is the Lean Manufacturing or Lean 6 Sigma approach.

Purpose: Improve Business Performance, Reduce Costs and Eliminate Waste

One key aspect is to quickly identify time wasting so that you can save a lot of unnecessary time and money - this problem seems to be of enormous magnitude in the trading arena.

So, although you are right to seek as much information as you can, it may be wise to first identify what you actually need to know, based on an approach similar to that put forward in the PVG document :!:


Okay, so I've enjoyed a glass or two of wine this evening, but am I wrong . . .?
;)

We are all normal, but some of us tend to get carried away at times, especially here in Ireland :D

Tim.

Regards,
 
This article appears heavily influenced by the writings of Van Tharp. That said, this excellent article has distilled the essence of what is really required for successful trading - good method and money management are crucial but real success lies disproportionately in the mind of the individual.
 
mcd said:
This article appears heavily influenced by the writings of Van Tharp. That said, this excellent article has distilled the essence of what is really required for successful trading - good method and money management are crucial but real success lies disproportionately in the mind of the individual.


I personally think that Van Tharp's books are some of the best available in the world of trading.


Thanks

Damian
 
No matter what you think, believe, or anything unless you have an edge you aren't going to be profitable. If you can find an edge and consistently apply it with good money mangement, you will be profitable. Is there anything more to it than that.

As far as a holy grail is concerned, I'd consider that to be a black-box, which is consistently profitable. Presumably, it could even employ machine-learning algorithms to constantly tweak how it trades. You just turn it on, and it starts printing money in any market. If you had that, it would be pretty easy to be consistently profitable. Although, if you couldn't handle being rich, I suppose it is possible you wouldn't be able to handle being wealthy, which might lead to other problems.
 
new_trader said:
Isn't this somewhat of a contradiction? If a Grail is a Grail then anyone should succeed with it, shouldn't they? What is the difference between the "someone" that doesn't succeed with it and the "Someone else" that will?

actually knowing what it does vs. taking it for "face value"?
 
MattF said:
actually knowing what it does vs. taking it for "face value"?

The "American Dream" has, at least, made thousands of multimillionaires. The Holy Grail hasn't been found yet and, being "Holy", I doubt whether it will be of any use in share trading. The Euromillion lottery has a pot of 120 million euros tonight. I suggest that while waiting to find the Holy Grail, punters who buy a ticket might have a better chance of getting rich.

Split
 
cronian said:
No matter what you think, believe, or anything unless you have an edge you aren't going to be profitable. If you can find an edge and consistently apply it with good money mangement, you will be profitable. Is there anything more to it than that.

As far as a holy grail is concerned, I'd consider that to be a black-box, which is consistently profitable. Presumably, it could even employ machine-learning algorithms to constantly tweak how it trades. You just turn it on, and it starts printing money in any market. If you had that, it would be pretty easy to be consistently profitable. Although, if you couldn't handle being rich, I suppose it is possible you wouldn't be able to handle being wealthy, which might lead to other problems.

Maybe, but I still can't understand why the "black box" must be a machine. Like the article says, that black box already exists inside your head but it seems that many traders continue searching for it elsewhere.
 
There are definitely plenty of Holy Grail "black-box" market models out there.

But, of course, they are not in the public domain. Search the web for Jim/James Simons. He runs the most successful hedge fund in history and it's all black-box quantative trading - 100's of trades per day in all asset classes. They don't interfere with the model - if they try to trade manually, it costs them money...

I was working at Goldmans last year and some of the most successful hedge funds were the statistical arbitrage boys who were grinding out the cash from 1000's of trades per day.

These worlds are very secretive, so it's up to you to do the homework to find good models which are robust enough to commit capital to.

c6
 
c6ackp said:
There are definitely plenty of Holy Grail "black-box" market models out there.

But, of course, they are not in the public domain. Search the web for Jim/James Simons. He runs the most successful hedge fund in history and it's all black-box quantative trading - 100's of trades per day in all asset classes. They don't interfere with the model - if they try to trade manually, it costs them money...

I was working at Goldmans last year and some of the most successful hedge funds were the statistical arbitrage boys who were grinding out the cash from 1000's of trades per day.

These worlds are very secretive, so it's up to you to do the homework to find good models which are robust enough to commit capital to.

c6

But by definition there can only be one Holy Grail otherwise it's just another successful trading system- A standard Grail, nothing Holy about it.

To me, a Holy Grail trading system would be one that you place 100% of your capital on every trade without any stops. If you can't do that, it isn't Holy.
 
new_trader said:
But by definition there can only be one Holy Grail otherwise it's just another successful trading system- A standard Grail, nothing Holy about it.

To me, a Holy Grail trading system would be one that you place 100% of your capital on every trade without any stops. If you can't do that, it isn't Holy.

Oh, I see. No, that's (probably!) impossible. IF it did become possible then markets would cease to exist. It's possible to get 90%+ but because nothing is absolutely certain (death even?) you would still need a stop loss.

Everything is probability. According to quantum dynamics, even the existence of the fingers used to type this message is probabilistic.

A Holy Grail would need to be a model of the world which incorporated an exquisite level of detail. This would include everything from all nature, weather, all neurons in all human brains, etc.

If you believe in God, then this model would be something close to God, so I guess that's where the Holy bit comes in.

c6
 
At Last -The Real Holy Grail Of Trading

All,

Stop right now what you are doing

Guess what - I have actually found The Real Holy Grail Of Trading.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Apologies as I have to take a break - you will see why. :eek:
 
maybe the Holy Grail is to become a broker.
That way you take a commission for every trade your clients make, irrespective of whether they make a profit or not.
Guaranteed money? 100% hit-rate ?

So......., how easy is it to set up a brokerage? :)
 
Important Creative Talents For Trading?

Just in case some traders did not find my last post humorous :LOL: - here is something a bit more serious that some may find interesting?
 
trendie said:
maybe the Holy Grail is to become a broker.
That way you take a commission for every trade your clients make, irrespective of whether they make a profit or not.
Guaranteed money? 100% hit-rate ?

So......., how easy is it to set up a brokerage? :)

Or maybe a Vendor? General statement - not directed at any Vendor on this site.

Do we actually have an annual $ figure for the Trading Education Market worldwide?

My guess is that it is in the very high $Millions - could it be in the $Billions??

It is something that also makes me wonder about traders - if a trader is so good at what he/she does, then why would he/she need to sell information.

Is it Greed or Failure?
 
Top