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barjon
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Socrates
If the intuitive traders (a shorthand I hope you will accept to describe the very dangerous adversary you depict) are ones who have cleansed themselves of all human frailty, decontaminated and purged of all viruses in order to allow their subconscious to be in control. And if that subconscious awareness depends on the acquiring of the right mechanical knowlege............ Then do you not point to a computer based future for trading with an artificial intelligence programme devoid of all those human frailties, demons, hurdles and pitfalls that you are forcing us to recognise and overcome?
I hope not, it'll take all the fun out of it (if you will excuse me revealing an emotion
)
If the intuitive traders (a shorthand I hope you will accept to describe the very dangerous adversary you depict) are ones who have cleansed themselves of all human frailty, decontaminated and purged of all viruses in order to allow their subconscious to be in control. And if that subconscious awareness depends on the acquiring of the right mechanical knowlege............ Then do you not point to a computer based future for trading with an artificial intelligence programme devoid of all those human frailties, demons, hurdles and pitfalls that you are forcing us to recognise and overcome?
I hope not, it'll take all the fun out of it (if you will excuse me revealing an emotion
)When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute-and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity. - Albert Einstein
I have not read this thread in depth enough to make to many comments , but from what I have read there appears to be some sig things being said here. Exactly how this applies to trading I will leave to others to comment, but much of this I believe should be applied to how we face our experience of life. the talk of Ego, self , letting go......or learning to unlearn the self we become in our early years & detaching ourselves in order to truelly be able to live how we should....is very important.
one thing I do know is that I have maybe not faced the greatest challenges in my life , but I have faced many off my greatest fears....these have been valuable lessons, I now know anything is possible.I believe this is what is meant by being enlightened, a good enough word for it & a great path to be on I think.
it is good to see this being discussed especially in the world of trading which is normally just saturated with talk of the mechanics.
Jay
I have not read this thread in depth enough to make to many comments , but from what I have read there appears to be some sig things being said here. Exactly how this applies to trading I will leave to others to comment, but much of this I believe should be applied to how we face our experience of life. the talk of Ego, self , letting go......or learning to unlearn the self we become in our early years & detaching ourselves in order to truelly be able to live how we should....is very important.
one thing I do know is that I have maybe not faced the greatest challenges in my life , but I have faced many off my greatest fears....these have been valuable lessons, I now know anything is possible.I believe this is what is meant by being enlightened, a good enough word for it & a great path to be on I think.
it is good to see this being discussed especially in the world of trading which is normally just saturated with talk of the mechanics.
Jay
TheBramble
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Finlayson said:
Very true. But this and Trader333's discussion on McEnroe's 'Perfect Tennis Match' and llew's 'no concept of time' are all perceptions of time and place and ability.
I have used on myself and others through NLP and hypnosis methods for altering perception of time and place. For instance, in pain management, helping someone 'move' their pain from one part of their body, to another part - and then to 'outside' of their physical body - to a state of 'no pian'. In a sporting endeavour I helped golfers 'see' the ball as being much larger than it is in 'reality' and the fairway being much shorter. Distorting time so that certain activities 'seem' to last much longer while others that are less enjoyable pass in 'an instant'.
These are all valuable and useful techniques and produce worthwhile and reproducible results. But they are purely perceptions. Even if they are performance and personality enhancing and the objective, observable results are optimum - they are all induced through manipulations of perceived reality.
What I believe Socrates is referring to and hopefully leading us toward is the basis by which we can at will, bring about a personal state of being which enables us to objectively manipulate time in a manner consistent with the apparent knowledge of future events through the development of powerful intuitions.
If I am getting this correctly, the first part of this process is the negation of our conscious 'monkey mind' (as llew put it) and development of a separate persona which has, quite literally, no investment in any 'normal' human survival bias - nor emotion nor moral code. No opinion. Just pure awareness, perception and instantaneous decision-making based on intuition. Like a warrior.
My suggestion to develop along this path would be to set this independent persona as an intention and then project this outward - as if it already was.
And I think this is where the issue of 'character' comes into play. For without the right 'character' the results of this exercise might well yield an individual who was perfectly tuned for the trading environment, but not sufficiently developed to slip back into his 'normal' persona with lightening reflexes when occasion demands.
What are the qualities of this character?
Conquer your own humanity.
Laziness, greed, fear, impatience, impertinence, lack of discipline, hope, pride, cockiness, lack of understanding. The 'Character Olympics' have been mentioned.
To develop supra human qualities we need first to ensure the individual has the capability to be supremely human.
Glenn
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This note is rather long, but after careful thought imho worthwhile to the thread.
It is in similar vein to Tony's (The Bramble) post #1252
My wife, as a sideline to her career in psychiatric nursing, has had private clients over the past 15 years. Whilst I have never met the clients nor known who they are, part of my wife's winding-down process is to tell me the details of some treatment sessions as they progress. It is hard work for her. I have always found the stories totally fascinating and absorbing. She has massively changed a large number of peoples lives permanently for the better.
She uses a particular hypnotherapy technique . This does not use suggestion in the popular sense of hypnotherapy. Instead it directly accesses the subconscious and enables a 'conversation' with it. Something impossible by any other means apart perhaps from many expensive years on the couch. And it is much much faster.
By having these 'conversations', the client is able to recall incidents in the past and understand the connection with their presenting problem.
By understanding these incidents in an adult way, the client can resolve the reasons for their problem and effectively cure themselves.
(So much so that of all the people she has treated and made drastic improvements to their otherwise unfortunate lives, hardly any have recognised that she was the catalyst and enabler for their recovery. They simply believe that they cured themselves - which is how it works.
I digress)
The point of mentioning this is that it is also possible to learn self-hyponosis and to tap into your own subconscious and what it knows or believes.
I see a parallel between this and the ability to employ a different persona when trading. Perhaps the traders who can do this have simply developed the ability by force of habit and hard work over a long period. So eventually it becomes accessible. But they may also be of a particular personality type - see later.
Endlesly watching charts day after day may educate the subconscious (in it's survival way of thinking) to recognise threats and opportunities. It may not be looking at the chart in the same way as the conscious mind. It may know from experience what 'if this happens, then that will happen'.
Indeed the manifestation of this knowledge in those who are able to experience it may produce the impression (or be the actuality ) that it can think in future time.
When you are trading and you experience that feeling of instantly knowing what will happen next, you may experience a tingle, an itch or some other feeling, or perhaps nothing physical, just a 'knowing'. You just feel that something is about to happen and it comes true. Normally the subconscious can go no further in bringing the situation to the attention of the conscious mind. It's fleeting and you can't put your finger on where it came from. It is not concrete and therefore most probably you don't trust it because you can't control it.
In the treatment of her clients, my wife has observed that the clients with the most intractable 'uncurable' problems, which the NHS and private practice and alternative medicine have failed to fix, are the very people who are able to be treated by her approach. She sees clients who have been failed by all other means. Typically their symptoms and problems are so complex and often obscure and contradictory that they are accused of swinging the lead in order to take time off work etc. The established professions have given up trying to understand the enigma presented and the client is left to struggle along for years with their problems, many hugely debilitating both physically and mentally.
In fact their problems are always caused by some historical events or incidents which their subconscious has then taken on board as 'normal' and which they then have to live with until their subconscious can be persuaded otherwise. The fact that they were adversely affect by these incidents (whereas others may have not been so affected) also means that they are the kind of client whose subconscious is approachable and malleable. This then enables my wifes approach to 'get at' the problem and help the client to resolve it.
The point of describing all this is that it has strong parallels with the 'other persona' situation described by SOCRATES and China White, and perhaps 'The Inner Game' which I think is what The Bramble is referring to.
It also informs the situation whereby not all people will be able to experience it. i.e. If you are a rational concrete thinking person, in charge of your daily life and not readily susceptible to mental or emotional damage, then perhaps you will never be a good 'future time' trader because your subconscious is suppressed and unable to communicate, or because you have conscious skills which obviate the need for subconscious intervention in normal life, so it's use is never developed sufficiently for trading in a 'future time' way.
That is a postulation on my part. However my wife agrees with it.
So here we are dealing with a particular personality type. The first essential is that the person has to be susceptible to hypnosis. Not everyone is. The uneducated and the controlling types in particular have great difficulty and may never succumb to the techniques of relaxation necessary for hypnotherapy to begin. Or if they do succumb, the defensive nature of the subconscious may prevent them from establishing a useful or reliable 'conversation'.
However perhaps all is not lost for many.
The suggestion from all this is that, if the special persona for trading exists then it's knowledge and messages can perhaps be tapped into by self hypnosis. You can train yourself to receive signals from the subconscous.
As a simple notion, an instruction to the subconscious could be that the expectation of a move upwards will create a particular physical response - for example an itch in the right hand. A sell signal will create some other response. In other words to amplify the 'knowing' and make it manifest and recogniseable.
This may sound trivial, but this is the way in which this branch of hypnotherapy communicates with the subconscious.
Briefly - you are put into a state of relaxation. You are then told that your left index finger is your "NO" finger and your right index finger is your "YES" finger. The session then proceeds along the lines of a detectives interrogation, using the fingers to answer YES/NO questions. The client is totally unaware that the fingers move or twitch when they answer. But they do and that is the key to the communication with the subconscious. (There is a lot more to the interrogation and resolution process, but not relevant to this debate.)
Perhaps for trading the subconscious has first to go through it's own learning process, endlessly watching charts and outcomes. And then the self-hypnosis can be used to enable the communication process to take place in a reliable and amplified fashion.
I asked my wife if such self-hypnosis might be possible for traders. The answer was yes. But not for all.
Glenn
It is in similar vein to Tony's (The Bramble) post #1252
My wife, as a sideline to her career in psychiatric nursing, has had private clients over the past 15 years. Whilst I have never met the clients nor known who they are, part of my wife's winding-down process is to tell me the details of some treatment sessions as they progress. It is hard work for her. I have always found the stories totally fascinating and absorbing. She has massively changed a large number of peoples lives permanently for the better.
She uses a particular hypnotherapy technique . This does not use suggestion in the popular sense of hypnotherapy. Instead it directly accesses the subconscious and enables a 'conversation' with it. Something impossible by any other means apart perhaps from many expensive years on the couch. And it is much much faster.
By having these 'conversations', the client is able to recall incidents in the past and understand the connection with their presenting problem.
By understanding these incidents in an adult way, the client can resolve the reasons for their problem and effectively cure themselves.
(So much so that of all the people she has treated and made drastic improvements to their otherwise unfortunate lives, hardly any have recognised that she was the catalyst and enabler for their recovery. They simply believe that they cured themselves - which is how it works.
I digress)
The point of mentioning this is that it is also possible to learn self-hyponosis and to tap into your own subconscious and what it knows or believes.
I see a parallel between this and the ability to employ a different persona when trading. Perhaps the traders who can do this have simply developed the ability by force of habit and hard work over a long period. So eventually it becomes accessible. But they may also be of a particular personality type - see later.
Endlesly watching charts day after day may educate the subconscious (in it's survival way of thinking) to recognise threats and opportunities. It may not be looking at the chart in the same way as the conscious mind. It may know from experience what 'if this happens, then that will happen'.
Indeed the manifestation of this knowledge in those who are able to experience it may produce the impression (or be the actuality ) that it can think in future time.
When you are trading and you experience that feeling of instantly knowing what will happen next, you may experience a tingle, an itch or some other feeling, or perhaps nothing physical, just a 'knowing'. You just feel that something is about to happen and it comes true. Normally the subconscious can go no further in bringing the situation to the attention of the conscious mind. It's fleeting and you can't put your finger on where it came from. It is not concrete and therefore most probably you don't trust it because you can't control it.
In the treatment of her clients, my wife has observed that the clients with the most intractable 'uncurable' problems, which the NHS and private practice and alternative medicine have failed to fix, are the very people who are able to be treated by her approach. She sees clients who have been failed by all other means. Typically their symptoms and problems are so complex and often obscure and contradictory that they are accused of swinging the lead in order to take time off work etc. The established professions have given up trying to understand the enigma presented and the client is left to struggle along for years with their problems, many hugely debilitating both physically and mentally.
In fact their problems are always caused by some historical events or incidents which their subconscious has then taken on board as 'normal' and which they then have to live with until their subconscious can be persuaded otherwise. The fact that they were adversely affect by these incidents (whereas others may have not been so affected) also means that they are the kind of client whose subconscious is approachable and malleable. This then enables my wifes approach to 'get at' the problem and help the client to resolve it.
The point of describing all this is that it has strong parallels with the 'other persona' situation described by SOCRATES and China White, and perhaps 'The Inner Game' which I think is what The Bramble is referring to.
It also informs the situation whereby not all people will be able to experience it. i.e. If you are a rational concrete thinking person, in charge of your daily life and not readily susceptible to mental or emotional damage, then perhaps you will never be a good 'future time' trader because your subconscious is suppressed and unable to communicate, or because you have conscious skills which obviate the need for subconscious intervention in normal life, so it's use is never developed sufficiently for trading in a 'future time' way.
That is a postulation on my part. However my wife agrees with it.
So here we are dealing with a particular personality type. The first essential is that the person has to be susceptible to hypnosis. Not everyone is. The uneducated and the controlling types in particular have great difficulty and may never succumb to the techniques of relaxation necessary for hypnotherapy to begin. Or if they do succumb, the defensive nature of the subconscious may prevent them from establishing a useful or reliable 'conversation'.
However perhaps all is not lost for many.
The suggestion from all this is that, if the special persona for trading exists then it's knowledge and messages can perhaps be tapped into by self hypnosis. You can train yourself to receive signals from the subconscous.
As a simple notion, an instruction to the subconscious could be that the expectation of a move upwards will create a particular physical response - for example an itch in the right hand. A sell signal will create some other response. In other words to amplify the 'knowing' and make it manifest and recogniseable.
This may sound trivial, but this is the way in which this branch of hypnotherapy communicates with the subconscious.
Briefly - you are put into a state of relaxation. You are then told that your left index finger is your "NO" finger and your right index finger is your "YES" finger. The session then proceeds along the lines of a detectives interrogation, using the fingers to answer YES/NO questions. The client is totally unaware that the fingers move or twitch when they answer. But they do and that is the key to the communication with the subconscious. (There is a lot more to the interrogation and resolution process, but not relevant to this debate.)
Perhaps for trading the subconscious has first to go through it's own learning process, endlessly watching charts and outcomes. And then the self-hypnosis can be used to enable the communication process to take place in a reliable and amplified fashion.
I asked my wife if such self-hypnosis might be possible for traders. The answer was yes. But not for all.
Glenn
TheBramble
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Good post Glenn.
BTW - I play neither golf nor tennis and I haven't read 'The Inner Game', but understand it relates to sporting enhancement through some techniques I have alluded to.
The point is - ALL hypnosis is self-hypnosis. Your wife is quite correct, not everyone can benefit from this technique, but to reiterate my point above - time distortion using hypnosis is only a distortion in perceived time - not absolute time.
Your mention of using Unconscious Communication (itchy nose, tingling etc.) is much closer to the mark and could well be an avenue to explore further. However, the basics and the groundwork must already be in place. I don't believe someone with no exposure to the markets would be able to develop the intuitions required for the market regardless of any inherent supranormal abilities.
BTW - I play neither golf nor tennis and I haven't read 'The Inner Game', but understand it relates to sporting enhancement through some techniques I have alluded to.
The point is - ALL hypnosis is self-hypnosis. Your wife is quite correct, not everyone can benefit from this technique, but to reiterate my point above - time distortion using hypnosis is only a distortion in perceived time - not absolute time.
Your mention of using Unconscious Communication (itchy nose, tingling etc.) is much closer to the mark and could well be an avenue to explore further. However, the basics and the groundwork must already be in place. I don't believe someone with no exposure to the markets would be able to develop the intuitions required for the market regardless of any inherent supranormal abilities.
Naz
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I dont know about being any darksider.
I can trade with out any indicators,sense when the move is finished and go completely against the crowd just by looking at the level 2 Nasdaq screen,becuase its an instant reflection of peoples emotions.
My answer is to have the courage to take the trade in the first place.When you're sick in your stomach think about getting in,when you're euphoric,think about getting out.
As an example i attach the charts below.The first attachment is the entry,the second is when i'm in the money.
I can trade with out any indicators,sense when the move is finished and go completely against the crowd just by looking at the level 2 Nasdaq screen,becuase its an instant reflection of peoples emotions.
My answer is to have the courage to take the trade in the first place.When you're sick in your stomach think about getting in,when you're euphoric,think about getting out.
As an example i attach the charts below.The first attachment is the entry,the second is when i'm in the money.
Attachments
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TheBramble
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But Naz, what precisely made you 'sick in your stomach' and how did you know it was going to rally and not just carry on further on its downward move. There's not even any volume showing.
Similarly, recognising 'euphoria' as a sign to get out obviously works well for you. But what was it that induced that state. Why not 5pts earlier - or later?
Similarly, recognising 'euphoria' as a sign to get out obviously works well for you. But what was it that induced that state. Why not 5pts earlier - or later?
Naz
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The inner game for me is to trade against the crowd and take advantage of when the crowd over do things.To understand the crowds feelings and a change in sentiment i need to watch their actions on a level 2 screen,not only in the orders that are being posted but also the volume represented by the time and sales.
I know that emotionally i will have the same feelings as the majority thats why i'll feel sick in my stomach on a good reversal trade.They'll have the same feelings but wont take the trade until they emotionally feel better by seeing movement in their desired direction,as it moves on more will feel emotionally pleased about the direction and get in by which time i know that i'm also feeling emotionally pleased so i'll better be looking to get out and do the opposite to the crowd.
I know that emotionally i will have the same feelings as the majority thats why i'll feel sick in my stomach on a good reversal trade.They'll have the same feelings but wont take the trade until they emotionally feel better by seeing movement in their desired direction,as it moves on more will feel emotionally pleased about the direction and get in by which time i know that i'm also feeling emotionally pleased so i'll better be looking to get out and do the opposite to the crowd.
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SOCRATES
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Good Morning Sir,Naz said:
I am very pleased indeed you have come in and made a posting at last
I want the audience to understand that you and I have never met but we will ,
I hope, one day, as I am sure we share a lot of common ground.
I have been following the traumas you and your colleague Mr Charts
have been suffering because of the density of the public that through their refusals
to learn or be taught, or to act wihtin a framework of morality and reason, or to ultimately
to take ultimate responsibility for their own actions as a matter of self governance
of the highest order or indeed all three of these combined, are either unwilling or unable or both to recognise when something of meaning and value is placed in front of them.
Let it be recorded that I salute you both and I commend you for your unending patience.
You may contact me privately if you wish.
What you express above is a bullseye.
SOCRATES
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Bramble, you should not be asking these questions as asking questions is not the route toTheBramble said:
achieving what you want.
The route to achieving what you want is a different ont to the one you think it is .
You must sit down quietly in solitude and contemplate first the scenario and then,
through quiet deep introspection, your deepest self, notwithstanding if Naz deems it appropriate to reply or not.
SOCRATES
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Intuition is not a commodity. It is an abstract concept that becomes energised,Max22 said:
You cannot pay for it because it is what money cannot buy.
However you will not achieve it if you persist in putting your
attention on the wrong things, and if you cultivate the habit of fraternising
with the wrong people with the wrong ideas, for starters.
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