The Journey from the Basement

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oatman said:
Looks like we disagree.
This is true of driving and it apples to trading as well. Wait for the herd to move or know what's going on around you and move first.
Yes of course we disagree because we are talking about different things.
Confidence is very different to awareness.
Look what just happened to me I nearly blew myself up.
I was very confident of my ability to do what I intended to do with the wiring.
But I was not aware it was still live in parts.

On this thread we are no longer talking of confidence.
We are taking this higher, and before we can take it stratospheric
we have to deal with the topic of awareness
which is an abstract concept.

So we have gone up from discussing indicators,
to discussing the absence of indictors,
to demonstating the consequences of the above
to examine trading without indicators
to reading the market as it develops
to anticipating what is going to happen next
to further putting the spotlight on other matters

So you are well behind all this
You happened to enter the discussion at a crucial juncture in which your comment
seemed appropriate to the flow. Then you go away then you come back and in between
you make some postings and you forget what you were originally asked to explain.

We are very understanding here and of course it is realised that you are not able
to trigger a realisation on command, instantaneously.
But what I am trying to do with you is to see whether you are able to raise your level
of awareness by rolling the film back inside your head to see if you are able to pin
it. That is the object of the excercise you have been entrusted to do.
And we await results.

By the way this is not to see if it can be done. Here we can do it already, effortlessly.
It would be very interesting to see if someone with your knowledge, experience and
opinions can do this too. We are only curious, we are not hounding you or otherwise
but already you can see that what interests us is something quite different to what can be offered as mainstream discussion.
 
ChartMan said:
All good things come in three's.
You don't need all those WMD's to overcome your foe.
But I can't figure out how the Rhino is enclosed in a rectangular space with three blankets...unless his back is against the wall....
Chartman, I promise you it is true. It is not an allegory. This is the way Rhinos can be
fooled into believing they are enclosed and that there is no point in struggling.
It is common practice in Africa check it out separately if you wish, and publish your result
here, I know it is astonishing this can happen but it is true.
 
Max22 said:
I am new to trading, about six months now, and I have to say this thread is extremely interesting. The journey Socrates mentions is exactly what I have gone through, The Books, the Trade show, the search for the best indicators, everything has been exactly as he has said. In my search for the best indicator I over the last six months I had started to wonder if it was all in vain, and if there was another way. That is when I cam across this thread and have been stuck to it. I am very anxious to learn, and I am grateful for those who teach and contribute, to help those willing to learn.
Hello Max, as you can see this thread is going really stratospheric because we are devoted to
reading the market without indicators. I would suggest to you that you go to the very beginning and read all of it. As you are a novice all of this is very advanced, in fact so advanced there are only a few of us worldwide who understand it. So don't be disheartened and follow the posts.
Read all of it carefully, even if you are a total novice you will find this thread beneficial as it gets
to the root of things, you understand.
 
I'll ask my Uncle- he's from Jo'burg..... and while you're at it, stick to things you know about. Electricity bites - badly. :cheesy:
 
SOCRATES,

If I may in my own patois, get to the essence of what I believe your eloquently explained futurology, net present and net past is.

It appears to me that what you're basically refering to is not some kind of cryptic and esoteric method of 'predicting' the future, but you're simply refering to our ability to view the trading action in varied scales of detail by adjusting our time frame, I take particular note that you place emphasis on the viewers ability to do so and the late addition Albert Einstein quote is another clue.

A lot of the guff and fuzz of price action can be filtered out by moving to a higher time frame, as this cuts down on the level of detail we see. So even though on a 10 minute chart the price action of a 1 minute chart is indeed 'counted', it doesnt 'count' because it's effect has been aggregated into a single bar.

I also believe I understand the basis behind the limits to anticipation. What may be seen on a 1 minute bar as a consolidation may look as a strong rally on a 10 minute bar, but if you know how many 1 minute bars it will continue to go up after this consolidation has taken place, you know how many more are to go on the 10 minute bars, or the 'slow' time.

There is of course nothing cryptic or esoteric about this, merely another trick, diversion another misdirection of the human eye. At least I believe this is how your post should be interpreted.
 
No, it is not the case. I wish it were as simple as that. I agree that reading a chart can give
you clues, which may turn out to be right or wrong.
What I am willing to progress here is something very different.
All traders at every level of ability have experienced a "flash" of recognition
whan the trade they have put on turns out to be right,
even when confronted with evidence to the contrary in the present as it develops.
This is why I am pushing oatman.
This flash also does not just confirm intuitively the correctness of the trade.
It can go much further than that , the "flash" has the ability to warp the
use of time, so that the trader has more than a gut feeling. It is an
intangible intuitive idea of what will happen next, and it does !
 
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Ah ! Ihave just come in again,
because I have now remembered to tell you
that the orher day, when I did the excercise with qaza,
I was not running a chart, but only the live price.
If you discuss this with very experienced traders,
they will tell you that they also have experienced this phenomenon,
particularly in Forex.
 
Alrighty.. I am interpreting it incorrectly. I'm interested in finding out what you mean however. I shall keep watching patiently, no doubt we will find out soon.
 
ford said:
Alrighty.. I am interpreting it incorrectly. I'm interested in finding out what you mean however. I shall keep watching patiently, no doubt we will find out soon.
This is what I am interested in pursuing.
We all know the consequences of changing timeframes.

That's OK

But this is not about timframes, which is mechanical.
What we are discussing is inuitive.
It is a form of intuition that transcends time
and appears not to be bound by time
and the use of time, now do you get my drift ?
 
Socrates - are you referring to precognition defined as knowledge of an event before it occurs?

robq
 
robq said:
Socrates - are you referring to precognition defined as knowledge of an event before it occurs?

robq
I am willing to explore any idea that is able to further illuminate this phenomenon.
 
SOCRATES said:
This is what I am interested in pursuing.
We all know the consequences of changing timeframes.

That's OK

But this is not about timframes, which is mechanical.
What we are discussing is inuitive.
It is a form of intuition that transcends time
and appears not to be bound by time
and the use of time, now do you get my drift ?
Perhaps a little, you tell me if I'm getting your drift.

I can understand you being able to 'feel' that a move is coming or has finished, that is intuition isnt it, something that manifests itself in you because you just know, presumably because whatever it is you have been doing, you have been doing it for so long and correctly that it has become second nature and which does not require you to have to think about why you are doing it, because you just dont have to.

However, what you mean by transcending time I do not know. Perhaps I'm looking into that statement too much and too literally?
 
Socrates you are either very clever or have been watching too much star trek

whichever the case I will continue to read with interest and await the forthcoming stratospheric revelation.
 
ford said:
Perhaps a little, you tell me if I'm getting your drift.

I can understand you being able to 'feel' that a move is coming or has finished, that is intuition isnt it, something that manifests itself in you because you just know, presumably because whatever it is you have been doing, you have been doing it for so long and correctly that it has become second nature and which does not require you to have to think about why you are doing it, because you just dont have to

My answer is in two parts, Fordy, here is the first part:~

This is absolutely on the button, because after you have explored everything there is to explore and you have mastered all the aspects of what is mechanical, there is no more
mechanical work to do.

If you think that mastering the mechanical aspect is difficult, and indeed it is impossible for many aspirants, when you go on to the next stage that is when the real work begins.
This is so frightening for so many ordinary people that they subconsciously start to take
refuge in what to them is familiar, which is the lifetime experiences they have had as individuals that have helped to make them into the unique human beings that they are.
So they start to apply the result of their lifetime experiences to this new field of endeavour, and this is a perfectly normal way to go about new projects. Now they become baffled, because at a conscious level they realise there is something not quite right with the way
they go about things, because in their normal everyday course of living they are able to
achieve results according to their knowledge and experience, which is the result of living
and making mistakes, and discovering new things, and maturing and so on....
But you see when they come face to face with the markets, now this is a different environment altogether, because it is so cruelly yes and no that they aren't prepared for
the information shocks that it is capable of delivering. I think you will agree that nothing
that they have experienced before can prepare them for this. Here there are no excuses,
there is no repair, there are no apologies, there is no possibilty of reversing an error or a
blunder by employing the methods that are commonplace and acceptable in ordinary
life. This is a hostile environment to this type of "victim" who persists in applying lilfe
values to an environment that cruelly ignores these values because the rules of engagement are so starkly different. Therefore they either have to adapt or change ~
or perish.
End of first part.
 
I second that Socrates.

U know btw the biggest single difference between OTC and proprietary traders is?

An OTC lad is constantly on the phone with clients and salesforce, so he knows where the flow is going. U cannot be a successful OTC trader unless everyone u talk to reckons u r a "nice lad". NO social retard will ever last on an OTC desk.

On the contrary, some of the most successful proprietary traders I know r complete social retards, constantly ridiculed by the cockney population of OTC desks. WHY? partially because they just do not act out of common rules of social behaviour - what Socrates was getting at. Their inner "world" is not exactly shaped by "normal" values, rules, usual way of maturing in E18 etc.......

RARELY u come across an OTC trader who also has a significant proprietary limit on his account. But my FIRM BELIEF is that that is where u really come across "la creme de la creme" - provided of coz u can still get w*nkered with your clients until 4am in Springfellahs and then still be able to trade your proprietary exposure "out of the box" next morning..... :)
 
ford said:
However, what you mean by transcending time I do not know. Perhaps I'm looking into that statement too much and too literally?
Second part:~

Once the mechanical work has been done, now the real work begins:~

In order to survive in an environment as hostile and unfamiliar as this with its irrevocable
results which are delivered impartially but viewed as cruelty by the unprepared, something
drastic has to be done.

The next stage of development is very difficult and everyone does everything possible
to avoid it.

Hence the proliferation of indicators and signals and such like.

At this stage the individual has to turn his or her attention inwardly, in a form of
critical introspection of the most thorough and severe nature. This is a very uncomforable
experience, consequently people avoid it.

You woud have to be a real masochist to enjoy it. It is impossible to enjoy. It is very nasty. It takes a very long time. There is no comfort and no respite from it, it is like self imposed toothache, very unpleasant indeed, because it means you have to change the way you are for the purpose of achieving an objective.

The persona does not see itself at fault, it does everything it can to protect us, because
all of it has to do with the instinct of survival. No one is going to play around with extinction
for a reason that is not tangible. Therefore the persona that contains the ego has to be
"persuaded " first by whatever means in order that it will allow itself agains all resistance to be modified in order to allow us to be free of this problem and to proceed to examine and
change the way we are, but fortunately only for the purpose ot trading.

This constiutes a long and deatailed study of why it is we are the way we are and what has to be changed to make us effective in an environment in which our current values have no value.

Because in addition we have been accustomed to the luxury of having emotions about things, this makes ti extra difficult. You see there are all sorts of obstacles in our way to achieve these goals, the main stumbling block is our own humanity.

When after a long period of time as a consequence of putting our attention on these problems and confronting them, we are then in a position to decide to do something about them.Now we proceed not just to identify the problems but to actively begin to do something about them constructively.

This process continues over a long time and it requires discipline, self discipline of
the highest order again which is very difficult to sustain indefinitely, because when you start
you dont know how long this process is going to take.

Ultimately you end up with another persona in parallel to you original self. This parallel persona is very different to your original self and is constructed to deal with a particular scenario specifically. This parallel persona is the one that sits in front of the screen, not your original you.

Your original you is still there this is the person known by everyone, wife, children, neighbours, evryone. But in parallel there is a second persona constructed specifically to deal with trading. This is what China talks about above.

When you are in front of your screen, it is impossible to a visitor to imagine that what they see is not what is.They think you are the same person that they know as a friend, husband, father, neighlbour.

It would not cross their mind to think this is your body but a different you for this purpose only, but , because you look the same this is very confusing and baffles everyone.

Now as a consequence of doing all this, you are now a different entity to the one you were
when you started. At this stage in your development, you are totally and intimately familiar
with everything that is technical, to you it is second nature, like riding a bicycle., or walking.

This allows you to have spare capacity if you like. As you are not consciously worrying about what may or may not happen next your subconscious mind is allowed to play its proper part, without it being supressed like it was in the beginning when you were trying to multitask
between the technical and the mindset problems.

The subconscious mind contains a very powerful intuitive element. This intuitive element does not seem to be constrained by time. It is as if the intuitive element disregards the mechanical clock, and has an intuitive clock all of its own, that when tuned into is more right than the mechanical clock.

It appears that this intuitive faculty can transcend constraints, including linear time, which
is the time recorded by the clock as it goes tick tock.

This is what I mean by biomind capability TheConscious Mind AND The Subconscios Mind
acting in hrmony at will, on command.

This is what interest me, as you can see my interest is beyond that which can be explained or illustrated mechanically.

I had to undergo a long journey. I did it all on my own because I had to. I had to train myself.
Now do you understand more clearly?
 
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dc2000 said:
Socrates you are either very clever or have been watching too much star trek

And don't be cheeky unless you want to be frightened silly, Ha ! Ha! Ha!
 
SOCRATES said:
Ultimately you end up with another persona in parallel to you original self. This parallel persona is very different to your original self and is constructed to deal with a particular scenario specifically. This parallel persona is the one that sits in front of the screen, not your original you.

Your original you is still there this is the person known by everyone, wife, children, neighbours, evryone. But in parallel there is a second persona constructed specifically to deal with trading. This is what China talks about above.

And what are the personality charactersitics of the person in front of the screen?
 
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