The Journey from the Basement

[barjon]

I know you are saying this for fun, but it is not the way it works at all, because once the TP is fully developed and acquired armouring of its own, it instantaneously detect the slightest impediment and goes into "hands off" mode. But the escarpment that has to be climbed in order to get to the top is so huge that only the very few are not put off, even by the thought, let alone the act.
Kind Regards As Usual.

Socrates & Rognvald (still haven't worked out how to reply to two posts at the same time)

Must have misled you a bit - sorry. I was jesting about my earlier post suggesting that once having entered and put in your stop loss & take profit orders you could disable your HP by walking away and turning off your screen. I was half serious about that insofar that absence from the action would mean that your HP could not interfere in what was left as a mechanical operation devoid of human interference by any type of persona whatsoever.

At best, of course, it would have been your TP that made the entry and decided loss and profit levels (and maybe review it later if neither triggered) but at least you would avoid those triple HP temptations of extending your stoploss, being frightened out too early, or greedily hanging on for more. In essence, if you can't subdue your HP the next best thing is to render it inoperable. :?:

jon

 

[SOCRATES]

Some additional questions about knowing:

Socrates, were you trading before you had the experience where you "knew" something was about to happen at the pier? At what stage of development was your TP at that time? Did your pier experience change anything about your trading?

I also want to comment about the situation just before the child tripped. Here's my guess.

You'd been at this pier before.
You'd noticed that it was possible for people to fall in.
You'd noticed that some landlubbers seem to get particularly awkward around water.
You'd seen this kind of giggling behaviour in children who are having fun and
not paying attention to their surroundings.
You'd seen several incidents where children in the care of inattentive parents
had 'accidents.'
You knew (or estimated) the water was over the child's head.
You had already made a judgement about the adult's ability to react effectively
based upon their ineffective attention to the situation.
You knew your land speed, your swimming strength, your fondness for your
watch and sunglasses.
In short, your radar was 'up.'
Pattern recognition was 'on'.


I'm guessing the same things happen in trading.
You've traded this instrument before,
You know its range of motion, its, spurts,its retracement levels, and how all of these react to who's playing, and the volume of transactions.
You've personally seen what happens to trader and associates who don't pay attention,
or can't seem to see the situation in front of their nose.
You are aware of your own abilities, fondnesses and foibles,
You know that there are moments when action is called for,
and when it is best to wait and watch.
When you see the situation develops and its time to react,
you do it, simply because there is no reason not to.
In short, your radar is 'up.'
Pattern recognition is 'on'.

The bobcat pounces on the rabbit because it can,
because it was made to pounce and the rabbit was meant to be eaten.
The bobcat is 'present' to the situation with pattern recognition on
(There's a tasty morsel coming my way),
and radar up: (Now is the moment to pounce).

I suspect that all predatorsand prey know this state of mind, and that only humans who have been trained not to know it (it would be inconvenient for civilized people) , are unaware of the true nature of life.

JO

WOW ! ALL your guesses are correct. Looking back on it, I do not think it directly affected my trading but I had another Experience that definitely affected my trading ability and that occured on water as well. I have recounted it elsewhere I think on this thread. It relates to a very close encounter with death, as a result of the dinghy I was in alone, drifting towards a whirlpool in an estuary that claimed the lives of several people every year. My wife, who was then my fiancee, saw me drifting and screamed. The Lifeboat was called out and i was rescued at the last few seconds. The Coxwain of the Lifeboat said it was the closest shave ever, and yet I was almost annoyed at being rescued as I resented having the experience of seeing death in the face interrupted. I learnt a lot from that. It taught me about the value of time, of the merit of waiting, of patience, of submission, of not forcing, and of being open minded about unfolding events, it made me humble in the event of the inexhorable. Quite weird in a way but also very enriching.

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates & Rognvald (still haven't worked out how to reply to two posts at the same time)

Must have misled you a bit - sorry. I was jesting about my earlier post suggesting that once having entered and put in your stop loss & take profit orders you could disable your HP by walking away and turning off your screen. I was half serious about that insofar that absence from the action would mean that your HP could not interfere in what was left as a mechanical operation devoid of human interference by any type of persona whatsoever.

At best, of course, it would have been your TP that made the entry and decided loss and profit levels (and maybe review it later if neither triggered) but at least you would avoid those triple HP temptations of extending your stoploss, being frightened out too early, or greedily hanging on for more. In essence, if you can't subdue your HP the next best thing is to render it inoperable. :?:

jon

No, again, Barjon, you have the wrong end of the stick, because the HP is going to get stimulated and cause you to do the wrong thing. The TP can take the result and walk away.
With the HP in play there is risk. With the TP in play there is no risk of that developing as it cannot and will not respond to stimulus (emotion, regret, anxiety, boredom, etc.,).

 

[Mr. Charts]

Re - 981
Beautifully expressed, Socrates.
The qualities of perseverance, application, self control, the abilty to be open minded and adaptive to dynamic factors and respond instantly and unemotionally, all create the capacity to trade successfully and anticipate events and act accordingly without hesitation.
They are the essentiial pre-requisites of The Right Stuff.
Kind regards,
Richard

 

[SOCRATES]

I am glad you approve.
Kind Regards,

 

[barjon]

No, again, Barjon, you have the wrong end of the stick, because the HP is going to get stimulated and cause you to do the wrong thing. The TP can take the result and walk away.
With the HP in play there is risk. With the TP in play there is no risk of that developing as it cannot and will not respond to stimulus (emotion, regret, anxiety, boredom, etc.,).

Socrates,

Why "no" :?: I can understand that with the TP in play there is no risk of those emotion etc getting involved. What I have suggested, though, is that if your TP is frail or undeveloped you can go part way by rendering your HP inoperative by removing it from the action. Surely that's better than nothing :?:

regards

jopn

 

[SOCRATES]

We are drawing towards the closing stages of this thread.
There will be an important discourse tomorrow, entitled:~
"The Five Concentric Rings".
Goodnight.

 

[SOCRATES]

Socrates,

Why "no" :?: I can understand that with the TP in play there is no risk of those emotion etc getting involved. What I have suggested, though, is that if your TP is frail or undeveloped you can go part way by rendering your HP inoperative by removing it from the action. Surely that's better than nothing :?:

regards

jopn

No Sir, in trading there is only one way to achieve market mastery ~
and that is to go about it in the correct way, or not at all.

 

[barjon]

point taken.

 

[JumpOff]

Well this does get strange. I have also had near death experiences-twice. Perhaps most people who live to be over 20 have at least one of these?.. (Just thinking of how careless and stupid I was in my youth and teeange years...)

(I define near death by the fact that I reasonably expected to die and didn't). Both were riduclulous situations of my own fault. One was an backwards trip/fall on to frozen ground 30 feet below, the other was caused by driving too fast on an icy road (I should have known it was icy).

In both cases I was surprised to have time slow down, and to feel completely calm and accepting of what was to come. In both situations the outcome was beyond my influence. These two events changed my life. It was the opening of a gate, a realization that things are not as they seem and that it was time to pay attention.

And so, I'm here to pay attention. On the one had it seems a little silly (arrogant) to be participating in this forum when I am a complete newbie (I don't even have a paper trading account). On the other hand, I have no interest in being part of the 98% of the herd who start trading without understanding what they are getting into, and if most everyone is basically using the same TA and indicators, then the difference between sucess and failure lies elsewhere.

I hope you will tell me if I overstep the bounds of protocol or if I drift off topic, and I await the next drop of your collective wisdoms....

Thanks in advance,
JO

 

[SOCRATES]

If you had an NDE did you see the light ?
Did you experience the "tunnel" ?

 

[JumpOff]

No Light, No tunnel, Not even a scratch to show for my folly.
In both case I expected to die in the next few seconds, and people around me
were expecting that too. Through fate, I walked away unscathed.
There was no miracle, no saving grace, just blind dumb luck I guess.
The surprise was that there was no fear, no desire, only a detached curiousity.
JO (who must work the treadmil for a few hours- I will be back soon)

 

[SOCRATES]

JO, very interesting posts. For the benefit of the audience, an NDE is a near death experience, the light and the tunnel is experienced by those of us who have and NDE. I had one at the age of 7. An OOB is an out of the body experience, in which the casualty is able to see his body from a distance, usually from above, but not always, often the casualty is very near death or even declared clinically dead, for example, no pulse, no heartbeat. The medical world is baffled by all this. These experiences are life changing, really formative. Nothing is the same, ever again. Many NDEs go on to develop unusual biomind faculties later. This is well documented elsewhere, those of you who are medical practiioners will be familiar with this topic.

 

[SOCRATES]

This space is reserved for the "Five Concentric Rings" Discourse, to follow:~

 

[AlexAndrews]

I had an NDE a few years ago, but I was far too inebriated (the cause of the NDE) to register any light or tunnel when it happened. It did, however, alter my outlook on life - and my drinking habits (including being tee-total for 6 months afterwards!)

Anyway, Sox, are we to take post #960 as the explanation of your purpose for the Penguins allegory, or was it an adjunct to the interpretations that we others had all posted?

Alex

 

[Windlesham1]

I was once told by my manager,when I was a musician-'Never take it seriously' and the music biz chews up as many musicians as finance chews up traders. It's just a game,and like any professional who plays a game for a living-test batsmen for example,it IS serious within its own confines,but if money is one's sole motivation,this is the wrong business,IMHO.

 

[Rognvald]

Money cannot be the sole motivation for paid occupation but it all too often is the major focus. The optimal combination occurs when enjoyment and satisfaction are obtained from doing something well, achieving results and receiving the appropriate financial reward. If the motivation is soley financial the venture is unlikely to be successful

 

[bracke]

Money cannot be the sole motivation for paid occupation but it all too often is the major focus. The optimal combination occurs when enjoyment and satisfaction are obtained from doing something well, achieving results and receiving the appropriate financial reward. If the motivation is soley financial the venture is unlikely to be successful

Not wanting to take this thread off topic but I consider a right of reply is reasonable.

For many people the 'optimal combination' is a luxury that they cannot afford or aspire to. The aim is to obtain sufficient money to live a given lifestyle and their enjoyment and satisfaction comes from achieving that lifestyle.

Even in this computerised age many people do boring jobs that give little or no satisfaction. I appreciate that one can take pride and satisfacrion from completing the most menial and boring job well but not when one is doing it day after day, year after year.

We have given people greater expectations it is not surprising that they become upset when they fail to achieve them even if it is itheir own fault.

Regards

bracke

 

[Mr. Charts]

I, too, am reluctant to go off at a tangent here, but some things are worth considering as they are, imo, closely related to changing career and becoming a succesful trader.
Many jobs are repetitive and unstimulating unless the nature of the work itself constantly changes and evolves.
The bottom line is whether the working environment and its nature is intellectually stimulating or not.
If it is, then most people are likely to do it well and enjoyably as their minds evolve, growing into a much more satisfying existence, one closely related but developed from what was there before.
Of course these views are mine and I have little knowledge of specialist psychology, an area in which I defer to Socrates.
Richard

 

[Rognvald]

Bracke

I don't think it is off topic because this applies to trading as much, and possibly more, than other occupations.

People offer their skill/services to others in exchange for money. They also offer those things for the much more intangible satisfaction they get from doing them. They offer these things in exchange for taking a risk. This risk can take many forms. At a given level of skill/intelligence they receive a remuneration which is the "going rate" if you like for the generic "risk" they take. This going rate is a combination of money and satisfaction. It is an unfortunate fact that our capitalist system runs on exploitation. This may or may not be morally defensible.

People though always have choices about what they do in their lives but they have to accept responsibility for exercising those choices. To take the extremes: they may accept a low going rate for a boring & monotonous task that they can easily fulfil or they may accept a position where they can offer much to a situation that is very rewarding financially and very demanding in skill and risk. There is a cut off point where people say in effect "this is all I am prepared to do to get £X cash and Y Satisfaction and Z Quality of life "

This totally ignores the host of other life choices they have exercised that impinge on the decision they make about paid occupation e.g have they assumed financial or family committments - do they have moral obligations to others that affect the result of their occupational choice and therefore their earning power and therefore their material standard of life (if you believe that a high material standard is necessary to achieve happiness).

So to bring this back to topic I believe that the JFTB is an essential one to make as it forces us to consider all these issues and the reality of them in relation to trading.

I am no way seeking to enforce this view on others but merely expressing it as my own. I also don't want to move away from the core subject of the thread but feel it is relevant to some of the theorems expounded by Socrates in this thread e.g. we can choose to try to develop a TP or not. If in doing this we spend time and effort doing so then this is opportunity cost to us. We make the choice. We make choice like this all our lives

Not wanting to take this thread off topic but I consider a right of reply is reasonable.

For many people the 'optimal combination' is a luxury that they cannot afford or aspire to. The aim is to obtain sufficient money to live a given lifestyle and their enjoyment and satisfaction comes from achieving that lifestyle.

Even in this computerised age many people do boring jobs that give little or no satisfaction. I appreciate that one can take pride and satisfacrion from completing the most menial and boring job well but not when one is doing it day after day, year after year.

We have given people greater expectations it is not surprising that they become upset when they fail to achieve them even if it is itheir own fault.

Regards

bracke