The Journey from the Basement

Status
Not open for further replies.
Socrates

I'm all for a bit of fun to alleviate the toil :LOL:

No joy on my index riddle as yet, but no worry. Also, you said you had something to say about a computer based future for trading - see below. (Just how does Rognvald paste in those post number links you can just click on and, incidentally, how do you search for a post number :?: I spend ages flicking back and forth between pages and it's a slow old game since I'm still on stone-age dial-up :( )


If the intuitive traders (a shorthand I hope you will accept to describe the very dangerous adversary you depict) are ones who have cleansed themselves of all human frailty said:
right[/I] mechanical knowlege............ Then do you not point to a computer based future for trading with an artificial intelligence programme devoid of all those human frailties, demons, hurdles and pitfalls that you are forcing us to recognise and overcome?

I hope not, it'll take all the fun out of it (if you will excuse me revealing an emotion :eek: )
 
barjon said:
how do you search for a post number :?: I spend ages flicking back and forth between pages and it's a slow old game since I'm still on stone-age dial-up :( )

To view a single post, use the following link, and replace the last four digits (1362) with the post number you want. The first number (107889) is the thread number, and 107889 is No Indicators Revisited.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showpost.php?p=107889&postcount=1362

Alternatively, just click on the post ID number (top right of each post in yellow) and that will bring up the single post window, and you then amend the post ID number to the one you want in your browser window.
 
Thanks Skim - you've been very quiet in all this lately (aside from warning off the bad boys). Keep expecting something and missing your absence
 
barjon said:
Socrates

I'm all for a bit of fun to alleviate the toil :LOL:

No joy on my index riddle as yet, but no worry. Also, you said you had something to say about a computer based future for trading - see below.
Barjon I am sorry I am very busy at the moment but Iwillcome back to you on this one,I promise.

Now read post on 19-06-2004 08:33PM
 
Last edited:
My take on things so far :)
bracke said:
SOCRATES

A point that is apparent from of your animal stories is the variety of interpretations given to the the story.

Given that most of the posters are traders it is easy to understand why one traders sell is anothers buy, yet we all receive the same information.

As I think you have stated or alluded to previously, we interpret from our own experiences, perceptions and particular interests.

We should be trading what we see, which is what many try to do but we have great difficulty in shedding the scales from our eyes.
SOCRATES said:
And talking of muddles, yes, Bracke, referring to your post 1353, you see how easy it is to be confused, as turns often occur like quicksilver, therefore if the mind is not prepared for it. by the time it happens, it too late.
As it often has been said, with same story, different traders can give different interpretations.

What examining these stories does is to exercise the mind so that it becomes used to the fact that the same story will produce different interpretations and that no interpretation is right or wrong.

Applied to the market, you may have a particular (emotional) 'filter' through which you view the market which may affect your interpretation.

However if you follow, interpret and see how other people interpret the stories then that can give you the mental agility to switch viewpoints which can be applied to the market.

So rather than remaining fixed to how you originally interpreted the story, if something comes along which is different, you can then change the story without any emotional hangups about how you got it wrong in the first place. It's just another viewpoint .

And I suppose, that once you become proficient at being 'free' and 'open' to reading the market, easily switching viewpoints without an 'emotional bias'/noise, then maybe that will open the door to the possibility that you can 'see' what may happen before it happens :)
 
firehorse said:
Applied to the market, you may have a particular (emotional) 'filter' through which you view the market which may affect your interpretation.
[...]
So rather than remaining fixed to how you originally interpreted the story, if something comes along which is different, you can then change the story without any emotional hangups about how you got it wrong in the first place. It's just another viewpoint .

And I suppose, that once you become proficient at being 'free' and 'open' to reading the market, easily switching viewpoints without an 'emotional bias'/noise, then maybe that will open the door to the possibility that you can 'see' what may happen before it happens :)
Spot on FH.

When we hold an opinion about something, our ego has a very real investment in making sure from the Universe of all information available, we select only those data which support our current opinion.

If we adopt a 'view' (no emotion - no ego) - by remaining open to the total Universe of all information available, we are able to pick up the more 'subtle' energies that we would otherwise have missed.

Everything has (is?) energy - even the future.

To anyone finding this a little 'away with the fairies' I should point out this is where Soros plays. He can turn his view through 180 degrees in an instant, without hesitation and without needing to review his reasons. And he's not exactly a Hippy is he?
 
Last edited:
If ever I took a view on a market, say bullish, I would ask myself, "How would I argue a bearish standpoint?"
This gives a bit of balance to the stance and hopefully goes some way to stop you being overconfident and blind to a change in sentiment. Some people only feel comfortable going long, for instance.
It also gives you a feel as to how the contra view in a market might react at certain levels.
 
barjon said:
Socrates

(Just how does Rognvald paste in those post number links you can just click on and, incidentally, how do you search for a post number :?: I spend ages flicking back and forth between pages and it's a slow old game since I'm still on stone-age dial-up :( )
Barjon
One of my little secrets :LOL:

It may probably not help you but it is part of my working routine. Amongst other things I keep Word documents of interesting posts and charts as I go along which I refer to frequently. I pick them up all over the place

I'm a cut/copy and paste/drag and drop merchant of the worst sort!

Method as follows:-
Drag and drop what you need into Word.
I do the posters name, and now the post id no. and the part of the post I want - u can add the date etc if u wish

The drag and drop copies the link into Word and it can then be copied into the wysiwyg editor so that it appears here as a post numbered link identical in appearance the one that appeared here in the first instance 1362

The link is of course also available to you in Word which has rudimentary Browser capabilities. If you have the word document open (but not or as well as your Browser) you can then call up any link in Word. The Word document is also still available:cheesy:

I notice the notice u take of of what I do
 
Last edited:
Know your friends, but know your enemies better.

When ever I (enemy) have a position on, I always assume it will be a loser until I am proved otherwise.

Market direction (friend) is less important to me now.
 
Good point Oatman. One should practice arguing the issue from both sides. As you say, it helps prevent jumping in a particular direction on a whim.
 
Rognvald

Ah! Thanks - a little secret shared means St Peter has put another tick in the ledger of goodness.

Notice how much notice I take of what you do? Go on, you know we hang on your every word :LOL:

Cheers

Jon
 
SOCRATES said:
...as turns often occur like quicksilver, therefore if the mind is not prepared for it. by the time it happens, it too late.
TheBramble said:
To anyone finding this a little 'away with the fairies' I should point out this is where Soros plays. He can turn his view through 180 degrees in an instant, without hesitation and without needing to review his reasons. And he's not exactly a Hippy is he?
ChartMan said:
Good point Oatman. One should practice arguing the issue from both sides. As you say, it helps prevent jumping in a particular direction on a whim.
In my humble opinion :) I think it is possible to go beyond arguing the issue from two sides.

If you have invested emotional energy into one viewpoint, for example if using weight, 10lb (kg) worth, you may then invest another 10lb (kg) worth of energy into arguing the opposite viewpoint. However, there is now 20lb (kg) worth of emotional energy sitting on your decision. The more energy you put into your decision the harder it is to change it. Even though your decision is evenly balanced over the zero point, it is still a lot of mass to move.

However, if you are able to adopt a trading persona and lose the 'ego'/emotional attachment, then as an example the weight on each viewpoint may be half an ounce (g) so you can then change your "view through 180 degrees" like "quicksilver".

This way you don't argue. No emotion, just awareness ("prepared for it"). It just is :)
 
barjon said:
Rognvald

we hang on your every word :LOL:

Jon
:cheesy:

BTW it may help u to use a browser that has tabbing facilities if u do not already. This allows you browser to store any pages u open up identified by tabs. U can then rapidly flick between them.

Additionally I find it helpful to have a browser with page zoom capability for charts. Mozilla has this (free) but I use ie2 http://www.myie2.com/html_en/home.htm also free
 
Last edited:
oatman said:
If ever I took a view on a market, say bullish, I would ask myself, "How would I argue a bearish standpoint?"
This gives a bit of balance to the stance and hopefully goes some way to stop you being overconfident and blind to a change in sentiment. Some people only feel comfortable going long, for instance.
It also gives you a feel as to how the contra view in a market might react at certain levels.
One of the nice things about Updata (Windexia) TA is that u can easily turn a price line upside down. If u do this as a matter of course as part of yor routines it addresses this issue quite well. I am an ex Updata customer at present and no u r 2

Firehorse - remember the Star Chamber doesn't allow opinions - just views
 
Last edited:
The process i use for continous self-assessment is keeping a trading log, which i am sure many do.

However, since Socrates posts, this has developed from a Trading Log into a TRADING DIARY and have learnt much, much more about my trading due to this.

So how are these different?

The Trading Log only noted the business aspects of trading.... the usual stuff like trades made, profit/loss, ongoing trading expectancy, risk/money management and best entry/exit signals. This embeds the pre-requisite mechanical knowledge required for intuition.

The Trading Diary is more detailed as it includes the above AS WELL AS MY EMOTIONAL STATE before, after and during the trading day and during trades. This allows me to analyse emotional patterns and bridge the gap to best trader practices by

1) Recognising what emotions i am/was trading with
2) Reflect to Realise the root cause of the fear so that i could then
3) Analyse how they affected my trades
3) Change my perception of the fear

My end day briefing concludes by me imagining the day through the eyes of a Star Chamber Trader and rehearsing any learnings from the day (e.g. could be something as simple as thinking aloud when you place a stop to re-inforce that you are in control of your losses, or saying good trade even if you got stopped out.) I stand at least 10 feet away and then turn around and imagine yourself in your old trading position doing what I was doing. What did I look like? How was my breathing? Notice any tension in the body. Notice the breathing. Then, i imagine a great trader in the same situation. What would that trader look like? How would he respond to the situation? Notice all the details of his posture and breathing. Lastly, return to your body of your model trader

I have also found that part of a true self-assessment is to discover what your true mission in life is and how trading fits into the equation. In my case, for example, i realised that i was trying to realise my life dreams through trading....i believed that it was this subconscious fear that caused my lack of ability to pull the trigger at a good trade or renter after a lossing trade.....i was subsconciously, in effect, trading my dreams away. I have now overcome this issue by changing my perception of the issue....mainly the re-stating the issue in another way.

As Scorates as mentioned before, this process of self-assessment is not pleasant, invloves continous hard work, though if you approach it in the right way for yourself it can be fun along the way and it is a journey definetly worth taking.

So if you have yet, i strongly urge you get on-board
 
One of the nice things about Updata (Windexia) TA is that u can easily turn a price line upside down. If u do this as a matter of course as part of yor routines it addresses this issue quite well

When I couldn't convince a colleague, for instance, to go short on a chart formation, I would hold the chart upside down in front of a mirror and ask them "would you buy this market?"
It was very obvious how some people were so reluctant to short.
They'd never run a short as far as a long position.
 
Rognvald said:
Firehorse - remember the Star Chamber doesn't allow opinions - just views
Thanks for pointing that out! :)

I was hoping to introduce some levity by preceding the message with the old IMHO phrase emphasised by the smilie in the middle of the sentence :)

It is of course just a viewpoint, which can be easily changed pending new information :)
 
Finirama said:
However, since Socrates posts, this has developed from a Trading Log into a TRADING DIARY and have learnt much, much more about my trading due to this.
[ ... ]
Superb ... there's enough material there for a book :D
Finirama said:
1) Recognising what emotions i am/was trading with
2) Reflect to Realise the root cause of the fear so that i could then
3) Analyse how they affected my trades
3) Change my perception of the fear
Funnily enough (or not ;)) ... the same principles apply to eating disorders or any other destructive behaviour (part of my other job!) :p
 
Last edited:
SOCRATES said:
Barjon I am sorry I am very busy at the moment but Iwillcome back to you on this one,I promise.
Right here we go, Your post 1362#

I do not know if you are tryiing in a very subtle way to pull my leg, playfully or otherwise.
I hope not, not for my sake, but for yours.

What you say in this post is a again a subtle detour and regrouping around an area
you should not be contemplating, but cannot resist returning to as the temptation for
you is to do so is too great for you not to succumb to it again.

This is because of your inabilities and is a consequence of your mindset and not mine, therefore it is your fault, and not mine, but I am willing to expand on this topic for your benefit and the benefit of the audience as well, and to my satisfaction.

What you are ultimately seeking is the perfect utopia. This utopia cannot be allowed to
exist because if such a programme could be developed the whole system of trading and
the methodologies applied to it would be forced to change, as it would convert everybody, that is, both the deserving and the undeseving at the same time into automatic winners
with zero effort As this is a zero sum game this cannot happen, and what is more, cannot be
allowed to happen.

But there are many individuals who persist with this idea, ad nauseum.
Their reasons for persisting vary.
On the consumer side there are those who persist either for devilment, teasing, taunting,
leg pulling, nuisance creation, interrupting, diversion, dislocation of discussion, or simply
through repeated and incidentally futile attempts to find a solution that may ultimately
exonerate them from thinking, from acting, and for assuming total responsibility for their
actions. This is the first reason.

The second reason is that there are many idividuals who are incapable of reasoning, logically deducing, deciding, and acting in accordance with the above again taking
total responsibility for their actions, but now become corrupted to an idea via a separate route, and it is this :~ As a consequence of not applying deep thought to the nature of what
it is we are involved in , they observe what appears to them to be repeated occurences.

They now persuade themselves that these repeated occurences can be accurately identified and quantified, without realising that these come in families as part of a complex series of alternatives and not as individual unique events. But to the untrained eye they appear so.

And, cruelly so, these events contain enough common features to persuade the persuadees that it is valid and reasonably justifiable ground for them to create (what are outside the darksiding fraternity regarded as) signals and indicators., or more TIC, "signs and marvels!"

These duffers invent these things and disseminate these ideas that are seen to function on occasion but mysteriously not on others and this baffles the audience. As the level of awareness of the audience is not suffieciently high in order to surmount this riddle chain therefore all sorts of excuses and reasons can be plausibly offered to curve fit a reply that is likeley to satisfy those who follow the wrong route.

The general audience, whose fault it is not, being victim to their own inabilities, now get frustrated as they find out this route is not a solution that can be consistently reilied upon
for the reasons given above.

The Duffers, we shall affectionately call them, are so are oblivious of the efffects this has on the persuadees as what ideas they have generated are not to the standard of consistency and reliability hoped for by the persuadees, and both parties can be exonerated in large measure for their misdemeanours on the basis that they do not know any better and therefore persist, also attempting to impose their half baked ideas on others. That's alright. Each to his own. We all have to learn as I have said before, and a girl has to kiss many toads before she can find a prince. None of this above is malignant.

But what is decidedly malignant is when these ideas are presented as automatic panaceas that are guaranteed to de stimulate an already corrupted and indolent
audience to search further by dereliction of personal effort in self governance.

There is another category of Duffers to whom we cannot possibly extend either
affection or indeed respect who see this gap in perception and take advantage of
it to their advantage and to the disadvantage of their victims by succumbing to allowing
these victims to have what they want, and by providing it, intstead of having the moral courage and rectitude to provide what they need instead, even if the medicine is
decidedly unpalatable.

This is what I am doing here, by not teaching, but instead by making strenous efforts
to raise the the individual and collective awareness of the audience in the hope the
audience will respond and succeed in having realisations which is the correct route
to dealing with problems and arriving at a higher level of understanding of what obstacles exist and the correct route to overcome them which is the opposite to what you bring up,
and this is an uphill struggle because it is against what is the natural propensity to do otherwise, which is why really accomplished darksiders are in the minority.

So the answer is negative, because even if artificial intelligence were able to map all of this out that you have to do by applying yourself to it like the others do on the other side of the
trade no sooner would this be complete that the whole scenario would have to be changed
in order to return it again to be a zero sum game. Very little thought has to be applied to
arrive at the conclusion that it cannot be anything else in order for it to be guaranteed to exist and to be available to all.

Furthermore the idea of automated or automatic trading which is a disguised extension of
formulas, indicators, signals and marvels is not compatible with this thread which is
devoted to the opposite, but which sadly appears difficult if not impossible to everyone except an elite minority to follow.

I do not see it as difficult, and you cannot complain that I don't tell you everything. The question is whether you are able to take any notice or not.

This is not my fault, it is yours. You have to change the way you are before you can change the way you think. And what is more, you have as a consequence change all of this in order
to be able to change the way you act, I cannot do it for you, you have to do it for yourself.

So there you have it, blunt, honest and to the point, you cannot ask for more, if this does not make you sit bolt upright and think about it I don't know what would.

That is all.
 
Last edited:
firehorse said:
My take on things so far :)


As it often has been said, with same story, different traders can give different interpretations.

What examining these stories does is to exercise the mind so that it becomes used to the fact that the same story will produce different interpretations and that no interpretation is right or wrong.

Applied to the market, you may have a particular (emotional) 'filter' through which you view the market which may affect your interpretation.

However if you follow, interpret and see how other people interpret the stories then that can give you the mental agility to switch viewpoints which can be applied to the market.

So rather than remaining fixed to how you originally interpreted the story, if something comes along which is different, you can then change the story without any emotional hangups about how you got it wrong in the first place. It's just another viewpoint .

And I suppose, that once you become proficient at being 'free' and 'open' to reading the market, easily switching viewpoints without an 'emotional bias'/noise, then maybe that will open the door to the possibility that you can 'see' what may happen before it happens :)
This is absolutely right and also look at what Oaty says below, in which he makes a comment of not succumbing to a fixed view, that is, not becoming chronically addicted to an opinion.

His posts 1368 # andf 1377 # refer.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top