Terrorism. New approach !

Pat494

Legendary member
13,843 1,399
Can something be done ?

YES YES YES

The current policy of just trying to capture the perpetrators isn't good enough.
Terrorist cells need nipping in the bud.
1.To do this many sting operations need to be mounted. Preferably by fellow muslims.
2. There should be a hotline for people who think they are being targeted by the extremists. They should be given anonymity and counselling. Preferably by fellow muslims who can see murder is wrong. The ring leaders would be put in jail.
3. For every death caused by terrorists there should be a doctrine of collective responsibility. So if say a Lybian is guilty of a killing, then the terrorist's family and friends should be sent back after paying compensation to the victims and their families. If their assetts are insufficient then the local mosque should be held responsible.The bomber will probably have committed suicide.

Trump may just have the balls to do something on these lines rather than accuse the wrong countries.
The Europeans haven't got what it takes as yet.
 

tomorton

Legendary member
7,371 995
Collective responsibility will I think be a new concept to English law. Are there some examples where this has been used with overall beneficial results?
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,072 1,866
Can something be done? . . .
Hi Pat,
Well done for starting the thread: this topic is on everyone's minds for obvious reasons.

Regarding your points, here are my views . . .
1. Sting Operations
I think this is a matter for the Police and security services. If sting operations are effective and can be executed within the boundaries of current law, then I imagine they will already be being utilized.

2. Hotline
Yes, I can see the merit of this. My understanding is that there are community leaders and support workers who are intended to fulfil this function, but I can see that some people may not want to engage with them for various reasons and would prefer to pass on information anonymously via a hotline.

3. Collective Responsibility
For all we know, the parents of the Manchester bomber are good, decent people who are grieving the loss of their son just like the parents of the bomber's victims. On top of that, their grief is compounded by the thought that people the world over blame them (partially or completely) and hold them responsible in some way. If they are responsible - then that's a different matter. However, it would be quite wrong for us to assume so just because they're the bomber's parents. Look at it another way. How many parents do you know who have children who have made a wrong turn in life and got into trouble with the Police or become involved with drugs etc.? This has happened to some very good friends of mine and I can assure you it's through no fault of theirs or because of poor parenting etc. So no, I'm afraid you're way off track with this idea. It's playing into the terrorists hands: it's precisely the kind of response they'ere looking for. It will backfire, increase resentment, fuel hostility and make matters worse rather than better.

Listening to Any Answers on Radio 4 yesterday, I was struck by a couple of contributions. One person recounted an anecdote of a non-Muslim asking a practicing Muslim for an insight/come explanation into what the terrorists are thinking and why they perform their atrocities. The Muslim's gruff response was along the lines of how and why the feck would he know? The terrorists aren't Muslims - they're murderers. He then suggested to the non-Muslim that he directed his question at a psychopath, as s/he is best placed to answer it. A fair point well made, IMO.

Following on from this, another caller suggested severing the link completely between ISIS and the Muslim Community. The way to do this is for everyone to agree on a new name that better describes who and what the terrorists are. Something like 'Insane Death Cult Murderers'. Crude and inelegant perhaps, but it serves the purpose of separating them from the millions (billions?) of decent, caring, peace loving Muslims around the world who are sickened to the core by the atrocities committed in their name. The sooner the reference to Islam is dropped the better, as the current connection merely fuels suspicion, resentment and division the world over - which is exactly what the Insane Death Cult Murderers want.
Tim.
 
  • Like
Reactions: swissy

Pat494

Legendary member
13,843 1,399
Collective responsibility will I think be a new concept to English law. Are there some examples where this has been used with overall beneficial results?
IMHO the murders of the innocents should be stopped. English Law where it is inadequate should be changed. These attacks have now been going on for many years and don't look like stopping anytime soon with the present arrangements.

The terrorists hopefully have some regard for their own families even if they hate others. Family members should in my opinion be encouraged to find help for their misguided relative. This could be offered in de-radicalisation courses. Subjects who fail to respond would have to spend a lot of their future in jail.
I can't off hand think of anywhere this programme has been tried but it may produce better results and should be tried.
If immigrants and their offspring want to stay in the UK they should willingly cooperate.
 

tomorton

Legendary member
7,371 995
I can't off hand think of anywhere this programme has been tried but it may produce better results and should be tried.

Well we could all think of a dozen things that haven't been tried and might work, but then we're no further forward, because which one would we pick?

Manchester Arena was a terrible event but don't let your grief and anger blur your thinking. The Wikipedia entry on collective responsibility might be relevant and worth reading.
 

swissy

Senior member
2,044 200
We need smart measured responses to deal with terrorism. Knee jerk reactions have never worked (e.g. IRA...internment early seventies). As has been pointed out...it's exactly the reaction they want, don't take the bait!
 

Pat494

Legendary member
13,843 1,399
You make some good points Tom but you don't seem to have anything to suggest. The same ole stuff has not worked very well for years. The " lone wolves " slip through the net with ease. How long do the politicians dither on what to do before the next atrocity ?

I agree collective responsibility is not fair but then people getting injured and killed is much worse.
 

tomorton

Legendary member
7,371 995
You're not wrong Pat, I have nothing to suggest. Terrorism as a phenomenon can't be eliminated because there will always be obsessive characters who are prone to extreme reactions.

As far as Islamic terrorism is concerned, its a religion with widespread current or recent traditional views that we would regard as highly detrimental to human rights. Whether we are right or wrong in our level of reaction, for some of its adherents it is just a short step between religiously and legally sanctioned denial of rights of certain groups, to denial of life of certain groups. I wish the entire religion could go through something like the Reformation, though I am doubtful it will in the foreseeable centuries ahead. Either way, this has to start internally and none if us will ever get old enough to see it.
 

Atilla

Legendary member
19,045 2,680
There is no such thing as Islamic terrorism.

They are simply terrorists with a political agenda!

Muslims are all over the world telling you what these people do has nothing to do with Islam and you guys still brandishing it about.

Latin American Catholics freedom fighters weren't Catholic terrorists were they? They were guerillas.

Protestants fighting Catholics in Ireland was called sectarian violence.

Croats and Serbs fought Bosnian muslims. It's always the same. Why the inconsistency?

Israeli jewish deaths to Palestinian muslim death ratio is about 1:1000 and yet the word is Palestinian muslim terrorists are killing Jewish settlers protecting their homes in their homeland.

Do you not see the agenda and the manipulation of by the press and those in power?

When you call it Islamic terror you are effectively the West giving the tool for these idiots to complement and recruit using religion.

If man A kills man B - it's murder. Empathy is neutral irrespective of ones faith and beliefs what ever they may be. Murder and killing innocents unarmed people who pose no threat is clearly wrong for everybody.

If muslim man kills christian - it's murder. However, empathy has just shifted anyone who is a Christian feels a greater degree of empathy to murdered man. Those who are not Christian may feel the same or more than likely a little less.

If a christian kills muslim - same as above.

If protestant kills catholic - same as above and visa-versa.


Why bring freaking religion into it that's what gets me. Trump goes to Sauidie Arabia and never once utters the word muslim contrary to his election tripe.

Do you not all see this? I appreciate it may stroke egos to think somehow they are murderous people and we are purer than white but the press is manipulating the agenda along with the BBC with their non-neutral labeling.

By just calling the fockers terrorists and not muslims you will help everyone and put them in their place leaving them a minority fringe group with less support than otherwise. They seek martyrdom and you're giving recognition to the pea-brained twits.


They are simply terrorists with a political agenda!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Pat494

tomorton

Legendary member
7,371 995
I think we can only conclude that a terrorist who announces he/she is religiously motivated, is religiously motivated.
 

barjon

Legendary member
10,319 1,569
I think we can only conclude that a terrorist who announces he/she is religiously motivated, is religiously motivated.
Aye. religion has a lot to answer for considering it's supposedly about love, peace and goodwill to all.

It's just an excuse for the power hungry to shift the blame - it was always said during the "troubles" that if it was proved there was no God then in Northern Ireland there'd be protestant atheists and catholic atheists.
 

Atilla

Legendary member
19,045 2,680
I think we can only conclude that a terrorist who announces he/she is religiously motivated, is religiously motivated.

So UK gives safe refuge to his father who happened to be persecuted by Gadaffi over 20 years ago.

His father gratefully comes to the UK and breeds his off-spring in Manchester.

UK and the alliances over throw Gadaffi with his fathers help and have him ie., Gadaffi effectively killed.

His father goes back to fight other wars such as that in Syria and allegedly joins ISIS originally established to over throw Assad regime much like Gadaffi's, supplied and supported by the West.

This young terrorist at the age of 22 drops out of university and goes to visit his dad in Libya and returns to UK to blow up innocent young people at a pop concert, for reasons only known to them. I don't think his made any announcements or videos but he may well have done?

Nevertheless, you have sufficient evidence to conclude his motivation was religion to become a suicide bomber. Nothing else?


Of the 2 billion of muslims all over the world I don't know what percentage are suicide bombers - let's say 0.000000001% at best but you are happy to CONCLUDE this is a significant number to confirm it is religion that motivates such people.

Fact that rest of 99.99999999 muslims say otherwise is of no consequence as these suicide bombers have convinced you they are the true believers. The others are all wannabee aspiring terrorists in the process of being motivated.

Alternatively, fact that often these terrorists are from countries who have been bombed the sh1t out of are in conflict zones is of no consequence either?

You are happy with your conclusion to accept the word of a suicidal young man.


Okay... Your beliefs are yours to own. No worries.


If you are genuinely interested I'd recommend reading Emile Durkheim's study of suicide... Really good read not heavy and excellent insight into explaining aspects of suicide. It does touch on religion too. (y)
 

Jason101

Experienced member
1,366 214
Can something be done ?

YES YES YES

The current policy of just trying to capture the perpetrators isn't good enough.
Terrorist cells need nipping in the bud.
1.To do this many sting operations need to be mounted. Preferably by fellow muslims.
2. There should be a hotline for people who think they are being targeted by the extremists. They should be given anonymity and counselling. Preferably by fellow muslims who can see murder is wrong. The ring leaders would be put in jail.
3. For every death caused by terrorists there should be a doctrine of collective responsibility. So if say a Lybian is guilty of a killing, then the terrorist's family and friends should be sent back after paying compensation to the victims and their families. If their assetts are insufficient then the local mosque should be held responsible.The bomber will probably have committed suicide.

Trump may just have the balls to do something on these lines rather than accuse the wrong countries.
The Europeans haven't got what it takes as yet.
Think please,

1 and 2 is already happening. Listening to the police, cuts in funding has not helped 1 and 2.

No.3, Please, come on. Should I be responsible if my father drink drives?
Or if a long lost cousin kills someone? I have a nephew at Uni on the other side of the UK at the moment, am I responsible for any crimes he commits?

Is this a joke?? Oh dear I have just read on further, you want to include friends in this as well, You want me to be responsible for someone I have met, you want to deport me? You want me to pay? If I don't have the money you want my church to pay? Jeez, would it have to be a Muslim church that pays, or would it be Catholic? or would that just be for Irish atrocities?
Or is it the pope that should pay for me, because I haven't got the money to pay myself. And if my friend was from Libya do I get deported to Libya or to anther country that I originated from, be it the middle east or somewhere else and what about my children do they get deported to, or do I leave them here with social services?? I saw a girl in the park today she looked liked she was from the middle east, should she pay?

"The Europeans haven't got what it takes as yet"
 
  • Like
Reactions: tomorton

Pat494

Legendary member
13,843 1,399
Yes you are right it is an unfair proposal and I apologise if I have ruffled your sensitivities BUT
1. Did the 22 deserve to die - NO
2. Do the 59 injured deserve their injuries - NO
3. Even the bomber would still be alive if someone near him had passed on their suspicions to a hotline and a kindly person had been able to de-radicalise him. Apparently in this case the security people did have info on him but didn't act. There is an inquiry on this point. I expect at long last a specialist unit will be formed to tackle this problem.
4.It takes a little courage to inform on a friend or relative but unfortunately necessary. Are you your brother's friend ? Well yes hopefully. It happens I think to most people to reach rock bottom and the urge to take it out on others is irrestistable. Just the very person, the person radicalizing others is looking for. With sweet words he gives that poor unfortunate person the means to end his own suffering too.

That is the evil person who should be in prison for a long time. He/she doesn't suffer. Oh no. just looks for the next victim ! Suicide vest at the ready !

Nuffing to do with me Guv - isn't good enough.
 

tomorton

Legendary member
7,371 995
So UK gives safe refuge to his father who happened to be persecuted by Gadaffi over 20 years ago.

His father gratefully comes to the UK and breeds his off-spring in Manchester.

UK and the alliances over throw Gadaffi with his fathers help and have him ie., Gadaffi effectively killed.

His father goes back to fight other wars such as that in Syria and allegedly joins ISIS originally established to over throw Assad regime much like Gadaffi's, supplied and supported by the West.

This young terrorist at the age of 22 drops out of university and goes to visit his dad in Libya and returns to UK to blow up innocent young people at a pop concert, for reasons only known to them. I don't think his made any announcements or videos but he may well have done?

Nevertheless, you have sufficient evidence to conclude his motivation was religion to become a suicide bomber. Nothing else?


Of the 2 billion of muslims all over the world I don't know what percentage are suicide bombers - let's say 0.000000001% at best but you are happy to CONCLUDE this is a significant number to confirm it is religion that motivates such people.

Fact that rest of 99.99999999 muslims say otherwise is of no consequence as these suicide bombers have convinced you they are the true believers. The others are all wannabee aspiring terrorists in the process of being motivated.

Alternatively, fact that often these terrorists are from countries who have been bombed the sh1t out of are in conflict zones is of no consequence either?

You are happy with your conclusion to accept the word of a suicidal young man.


Okay... Your beliefs are yours to own. No worries.


If you are genuinely interested I'd recommend reading Emile Durkheim's study of suicide... Really good read not heavy and excellent insight into explaining aspects of suicide. It does touch on religion too. (y)

I stand by the general conclusion that the majority of terrorists of origins in Islamic societies are religiously motivated. They are motivated towards violence as a way of as they see it defending their religion rather becoming clerics or missionaries or whatever because there is is an aspect of their religion which already denies very significant rights to religiously specified groups.

In Abedi's case, his sister asserts he wished to extract revenge for US military strikes in the Middle East, specifically those which had killed children. This is a political statement. But as we know that a high proportion of Muslims regard any attack on a Muslim country as an attack on the religion also, and that the duty of other Muslims is to bond together in opposition to such attacks, then we have to conclude there might well have been a religious element in what he did. In any case, in view of the evidence from other terrorist attacks and plots, if we wish to understand the problem, ignoring the religious element is blinkered and therefore dangerous.

Its is true that only a tiny percentage of Muslims commit terrorist acts, However, in the respected Channel 4 survey, 90% of Muslim respondents condemned terrorism. It should ideally have been 100%, but as it turns out, 90% is higher than amongst the UK population as a whole. Nevertheless, it is predominantly persons of Muslim origin who actually move on the acts of terrorism in the current political context. I still say this is due to a pre-disposing aspect of their religion as opposed to others.
 

Similar threads


AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

But it's thanks to our sponsors that access to Trade2Win remains free for all. By viewing our ads you help us pay our bills, so please support the site and disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock