Scam Merchants - Lets get rid of them??

[jimbo57]

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[kenhetherington]

Again I believe two things are mixed up here.

Trading is a topic which depends on aptitude, skill, hard work, knowledge, mastery of emotions, etc For those that wish to confine themselves to this, that is their legitimate choice.

However what was being discussed is an entirely different matter. It is for those that feel they do not want to ignore the odiousness in society and leave it to others to sort out. It is for those that feel society is better if we all take responsibility for doing our own bit to expose sharp practice and help get it stopped.

I am sure Jimbo you share the concerns we have, but BW and I and several others feel, for NO personal gain, that we cannot just sit around and bemoan people being misled out of their money without taking a stand.

And on top of that, we want to be good traders too, but that is an entirely different topic.

I hear what you say Bush, but trading is first a question of survival, then gaining - the more energy that is spent pursuing this bozos, the less there is available for more gainful activities.

Unless like Zenda you want to assume the mantle of 'crusader', whatever the motive, then best to just ignore, and treat them like the spammers that plague us all.

 

[jimbo57]

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[fxmarkets]

Fantasy Island - Boss' de Plane with the Order on, they will tell you everything.

What is simple is being ever so complicated - it all revolves around veracity. If the seminar is based around untruths whether relating to the course content or to the credentials of the presenter then that to me is a scam. These lies or however you wish to couch them must be deliberate and not exaggerated claims - which then involves a question of degree.

For the former they need to be vilified and if i am not mistaken made subject to civil and criminal law. The latter should be subject to proper regulation by an independent body and taught how to tow the line.

That is how it should be.

I cant see Speculation Blueprint's and its content being monitored by indpendent bodies as it has? to be very much Subrosa does it not to preserve itself , the game and the order. Clearly a case of the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many to maintain its existence.

Aquired only to be burnt in the paper bins of an individuals mind (so to speak) or if tangible burnt in huge bonfires in back gardens maybe.

Perhaps theres a few on here no doubt who know much much more detail and knowledge on these matters than myself who can comment further, but then they can't / shouldn't can they? You could get a headache just thinking about it, how far it goes & where. An imagery to sit with maybe.

hmmm.

 

[jimbo57]

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[trendie]

Having defined scam, how does that affect Zenda, Winters or Secker, then??

They do nothing other than TEACH about trading.

Adn just because they entice you in with examples of what "other" students have achieved, doesnt mean "you" will be capable of emulating.

If that were the case, just about every Oxford or Cambridge student could sue their teachers because they couldnt think like Hawking or Newton.
Or every possessor of a word-processor could sue Dell on the grounds that owning such a device didnt help them write block-buster novels like JK Rowling.

fxmarkets perspective is perhaps the best one so far, in that htese people are marketeers, and are selling seminars, not selling trading nirvana.

Anybody going to a 3-hour seminar, and then signing up for a multi-£1000 course without first getting comparative quotes or conducting due diligence, or allowing themselves a cooling-off period are tragically the same kinds of people who:
1: agree to pay cold-callers from Bermuda £X,000s for shares in companies they never heard of, cos they are going to make a fortune,
2: give their bank details to nigerian princes

I agree some element of rules are needed to protect the unwary, but it is a personality trait you are describing. The problem is the person. They shouldnt be allowed out on their own.

There are NO guarantees. But nobody wants to hear that.
Wasnt there a case a while ago when share-holders wanted to sue the government because their shares in Marconi or Railtrack had lost value?

I am sorry, but, some of these people, are simply greedy, and get whats coming to them. The tragedy is that the £3,000 they spend on courses is less money that ends up in my account.

WARNING: The coffeee cup may contain hot liquid.

 

[wasp]

Having defined scam, how does that affect Zenda, Winters or Secker, then??

They do nothing other than TEACH about trading.

Adn just because they entice you in with examples of what "other" students have achieved, doesnt mean "you" will be capable of emulating.

If that were the case, just about every Oxford or Cambridge student could sue their teachers because they couldnt think like Hawking or Newton.
Or every possessor of a word-processor could sue Dell on the grounds that owning such a device didnt help them write block-buster novels like JK Rowling.

fxmarkets perspective is perhaps the best one so far, in that htese people are marketeers, and are selling seminars, not selling trading nirvana.

Anybody going to a 3-hour seminar, and then signing up for a multi-£1000 course without first getting comparative quotes or conducting due diligence, or allowing themselves a cooling-off period are tragically the same kinds of people who:
1: agree to pay cold-callers from Bermuda £X,000s for shares in companies they never heard of, cos they are going to make a fortune,
2: give their bank details to nigerian princes

I agree some element of rules are needed to protect the unwary, but it is a personality trait you are describing. The problem is the person. They shouldnt be allowed out on their own.

There are NO guarantees. But nobody wants to hear that.
Wasnt there a case a while ago when share-holders wanted to sue the government because their shares in Marconi or Railtrack had lost value?

I am sorry, but, some of these people, are simply greedy, and get whats coming to them. The tragedy is that the £3,000 they spend on courses is less money that ends up in my account.

WARNING: The coffeee cup may contain hot liquid.

Nutshell. spot on Trendie.

 

[Charlton]

Emotions are an anathema to trading

htese people are marketeers, and are selling seminars, not selling trading nirvana.

I agree some element of rules are needed to protect the unwary, but it is a personality trait you are describing. The problem is the person. They shouldnt be allowed out on their own.

Excellent summary - the 2 problems are:
- the personality of the so-called trainer. He/she is a salesman and an evangelist capable of stirring up peoples' emotions of greed and excitement.
- the personality of the attendee, as you say

I have been to a couple of these freebies and they are very effective. You do feel the excitement.

This is just like trading itself - let your emotions take precedence over logic, reasoning and a planned and cautious approach and you are very likely to lose money

Charlton

 

[KIMMRUNNER]

What is a scam

Interesting thread!

A major league problem in trading "knowhow" is that most of the so called standard texts on trading are also complete tosh and would therefore have to fit the category of "scam"

Take one of the standard texts on TA, and try to backtest most of the ideas contained in it, over substantial length of time and you begin to realise that there is a lot of myth and folklore in standard TA which has become accepted simply because it has been repeated so often: it
is wishful thinking for the most part.

Take standard moving average crossings: I defy most of these expert writers to show me
any successful long term back test on schemes based on crossings, whether of
two or many averages of closing price:

IMHO most standard TA is a scam, and should be barred - since this is the first knowhow that novice traders trip over (assuming Goldline didnt get them first!!) And I think it is reliance on this sort of stuff that ensures that novice traders lose money. Small surprise that the spreadbet companies will let you superimpose most of this TA on
charts - because they know it wont help!!

( By the way - I thought the accepted industry statistic is 80% lose, not the 90% quoted earlier in this thread, but it is still pretty frightening.)

Just a thought

 

[Charlton]

Good points

Interesting thread!

A major league problem in trading "knowhow" is that most of the so called standard texts on trading are also complete tosh and would therefore have to fit the category of "scam"

Take one of the standard texts on TA, and try to backtest most of the ideas contained in it, over substantial length of time and you begin to realise that there is a lot of myth and folklore in standard TA which has become accepted simply because it has been repeated so often: it
is wishful thinking for the most part.

Take standard moving average crossings: I defy most of these expert writers to show me
any successful long term back test on schemes based on crossings, whether of
two or many averages of closing price:

IMHO most standard TA is a scam, and should be barred - since this is the first knowhow that novice traders trip over (assuming Goldline didnt get them first!!) And I think it is reliance on this sort of stuff that ensures that novice traders lose money. Small surprise that the spreadbet companies will let you superimpose most of this TA on
charts - because they know it wont help!!

( By the way - I thought the accepted industry statistic is 80% lose, not the 90% quoted earlier in this thread, but it is still pretty frightening.)

Just a thought

Kimmrunner

Some interesting points about standard texts and TA itself. With trial and error and developing experience the novice trader may develop the ability to sort out the wheat from the chaff, provided they don't blow their accounts first.

Do you have any suggestions about how they would determine the most efficient and productive path in their trading education to avoid these pitfalls ?

Incidentally I think the 80/20 rule is a scam itself. It seems to be the statistic which is quoted in every type of industry to justify a certain stance, yet how often is this ratio backed up by proof ?

Charlton

 

[Pippppin]

the word "scam" seems to be rather misused on this thread - just because you do not agree with something does not make it a scam

For Charlton to state that Pareto's law is a scam shows both his/her ignorance, and misuse of the English language

 

[KIMMRUNNER]

Kimmrunner
Yet how often is this ratio backed up by proof ?

Charlton

Forget which thread, but there was a post by a manager at one of the spreadbet companies on one of these boards a while ago that confirmed the number for his organisation in particular - think he said 82% - and then commented this was pretty much the industry average reported by the futures contract exchanges. Not proof, but what interest would have been served by him distorting the truth??

 

[KIMMRUNNER]

the word "scam" seems to be rather misused on this thread - just because you do not agree with something does not make it a scam

For Charlton to state that Pareto's law is a scam shows both his/her ignorance, and misuse of the English language

SCAM - dictionary definition
1. a confidence game or other fraudulent scheme, esp. for making a quick profit; swindle.

When I pay £30 for a book on trading, I at least expect the author to have confirmed to
standard of proof " a balance of probability" that the ideas he presents are viable - by back testing, or actual trading. It is clear that
many authors just regurgigate all of the old tosh in order to get another book out for a profit,
neither knowing or caring whether the information stands up. That some of these
guys use there "reputation" to gain the "confidence" of an uninformed public to part
with money that gives them a "quick profit" is a clear and definite SCAM!!!

The fact that it is a scam which gives them 10000 books * £30 rather than 100 off dodgy trading schemes of £3000 makes it no less a SCAM!!

I must admit I was appalled when I first put in the effort and hours needed to prove that
most of the information in these books was complete tosh.

 

[Charlton]

Forget which thread, but there was a post by a manager at one of the spreadbet companies on one of these boards a while ago that confirmed the number for his organisation in particular - think he said 82% - and then commented this was pretty much the industry average reported by the futures contract exchanges. Not proof, but what interest would have been served by him distorting the truth??

The actual % may or may not be 82%. It may be 70% or 90% and I would hope that anyone in the industry that quotes these percentages would be able to back them up with the relevant statistics. With regard to Pipins personal attack I am fully aware of Pareto's Law or Pareto's Rule. Rule or Principle is perhaps a better term than law, because it does not have the same character as, for example, a law of science.

What I was trying to point out was that this rule is often mis-used. In all walks of life it is plucked from the air as the percentage that does this or does that, without necessarily verifying it. I accept that it is quite a useful general % to use, but not to mis-use.

With regard to Pippppin's castegation about the word "scam" I accept that I was using the term loosely, because it was the theme of the thread. I should have chosen a better word such as "generalisation" perhaps. However I don't think this is any excuse for calling a complete stranger ignorant, which unfortunately is a direction this board often takes nowadays

Charlton

 

[Pippppin]

Kimrunner.....I fully agree with your demolition of the nonsense which passes for genuine trading knowledge, with the aim of securing a dishonest buck. Most such schemes and "courses" are a scam

Charlton - sorry if you thought I was a touch harsh, but the use of the word ignorance was entirely appropriate, given your apparent lack of awareness of Pareto's Law

 

[KIMMRUNNER]

However I don't think this is any excuse for calling a complete stranger ignorant, which unfortunately is a direction this board often takes nowadays
Charlton

Entirely agree!! -it was out of order!

I posted on another board a week ago, regarding the psychology of buying trading schemes,
and was quite AMUSED to be told that (a) I knew nothing about psychology ( how would he know?) and (b) I was told categorically that trading schemes were more or less irrelevant - a good trader can random pick - and win. ( where does he get that from!!! - I dont think chucking darts blindfold will win a game of darts either)

Interesting thing was, I followed up the posts by this guy to discover he was a complete
novice at trading , and novice on this board- and should be listening rather than talking for at least a few months - certainly not making statements as bold as those!!!!

Dont take it to heart Charlton, being abused comes with the territory of discussion boards.

 

[timaru69]

Hi all

Interesting thread but I think those people that sell over priced courses/seminars e.g Secker, Winters, VS, Goldline etc will always exist because they tell people what they want to hear.

That trading is

Easy , spend only 30 minutes a day
Rewarding, £2,000 into £70,000 in x number months/years etc
and that anybody can do it.

People don't like to admit that they were wrong (fear to admit failure) and so will quitely slink away, only a few willing to stand up and voice their concerns.

However some of the good mentors get a bad rap because peoples expectations far exceed their ability.

Just because you spend a 1-2-1 with a mentor does not mean that you will start generating profits straight away. That takes time, practice and understanding of oneself, which in itself may not be a pleasant experience for some people as those that thought they were disciplined find out that they are just as emotional and prone to error as the next person, and to make matters worse they may discover that a style of trading taught by that mentor is does not suit their personality.

So with all this in mind what makes a good mentor? What attributes are required before somebody is considered, in general, to be a good mentor? How can these be defined when everybodies perceptions may be so different.

The mind boggles

Cheers

T

 

[dbphoenix]

So with all this in mind what makes a good mentor? What attributes are required before somebody is considered, in general, to be a good mentor? How can these be defined when everybodies perceptions may be so different.

Regarding the above, the following thread may be of interest:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=19474

 

[talkingcents]

Zenda video

Appears as if the link to this was deleted so go to youtube and search under trading scams then you will understand this thread a bit better

Mod's note: this link was deleted by Zenda and not by T2W

 

[Trader333]

I posted on another board a week ago, regarding the psychology of buying trading schemes,
and was quite AMUSED to be told that (a) I knew nothing about psychology ( how would he know?)

He probably used the Pareto 80 / 20 rule that there was an 80% chance that you didnt know anything about psychology


Paul