timsk
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Great stuff John, good luck.
Something you might want to look at early on are the criteria by which you distinguish the rip off merchants from the genuine vendors with a good product or service. I'm sure you'll be inundated with e-mails and PM's from people saying things like, 'I paid £££'s for this seminar / manual / 1-2-1 course etc. and I haven't made any money at all - in fact I've lost money'. In my own case, a good example of this is the 'Champion Trader' by Shiraz A. Lakhi. "A proven, 4-step strategy of a mastermind" - supposedly! I bought it years ago and I think I paid about £100 for it. From memory, it was quite well put together, but I never made any money out of it and I don't know of anyone else who did either. I doubt that there's anything in it that couldn't be obtained for free on T2W now. Also, some of the advice was somewhat questionable, such as risking 8% of your capital on any one trade!
Having said all that, I'm not sure that it would be fair to class Mr Lakhi as a con merchant and file his little book in the rubbish bin. However, it would be very fair and reasonable to say that I was naive to think that I could make a fortune with a £100 'investment' in a book advertised in the back pages of Exchange & Mart. IMO, a lot of responsibility rests with the buyer and not exclusively with the vendor. Prospective customers must take all reasonable steps to ensure that the vendor's product or service does what it says it does on the tin - before they buy. Caveat emptor and all that.
Tim.
Something you might want to look at early on are the criteria by which you distinguish the rip off merchants from the genuine vendors with a good product or service. I'm sure you'll be inundated with e-mails and PM's from people saying things like, 'I paid £££'s for this seminar / manual / 1-2-1 course etc. and I haven't made any money at all - in fact I've lost money'. In my own case, a good example of this is the 'Champion Trader' by Shiraz A. Lakhi. "A proven, 4-step strategy of a mastermind" - supposedly! I bought it years ago and I think I paid about £100 for it. From memory, it was quite well put together, but I never made any money out of it and I don't know of anyone else who did either. I doubt that there's anything in it that couldn't be obtained for free on T2W now. Also, some of the advice was somewhat questionable, such as risking 8% of your capital on any one trade!
Having said all that, I'm not sure that it would be fair to class Mr Lakhi as a con merchant and file his little book in the rubbish bin. However, it would be very fair and reasonable to say that I was naive to think that I could make a fortune with a £100 'investment' in a book advertised in the back pages of Exchange & Mart. IMO, a lot of responsibility rests with the buyer and not exclusively with the vendor. Prospective customers must take all reasonable steps to ensure that the vendor's product or service does what it says it does on the tin - before they buy. Caveat emptor and all that.
Tim.
Zenda
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timsk said:
Thanks Tim I totally agree with you I'm not really bothered with anything that comes in that category I just want to expose the real cowboys that charge extortionate amounts example -Goldline Intelli250 MCI DW GS & VS just for starters who will take Thousands of pounds off the unwary and nieve public supported by National Newspapers/Radio and websites that promote these dubious products and services to the "Holy Grail" seekers ! The polititions government FSA allow these Scam merchants an opportunity to market their wares in the UK - and nobody is doing anything about it!
timsk said:
Yes, it takes two make a bargain. A scammer, though, has only to get the other one to make up the pair. Providing that his scam is attractive enough he will get lots of answers, of which a proportion will take the bait.
My lesson was relatively cheap. 25 quid for a system that I knew already, all wriiten on one side of a folio sized sheet of yellow paper. I wonder why he even bothered to answer. Probably thought that it would be dishonest not to. Since then, I have never taken the bait and consider myself very fortunate. The scam board is full of confessions from those who sent thousands of pounds and answering posts say "Me,too"!
What influence does a scammer have who can extract such large sums of money from gullible would be investors? It beats me, but they need some kind of protection, don't you think?
Split
timsk
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Vendor's Charter?
Following on . . .
My little brain appears to have woken up and is generating ideas. Unusual for this time of day on a Sunday! It would be good if your investigation resulted in something practical that wannabe traders who are green about the gills can understand and use with ease. One answer might be a 'Vendor's Charter'. Assuming that it isn't adopted by the FSA, it would have to be a voluntary charter. Nonetheless, support from the likes of T2W could ensure that the well known and respected vendors subscribed to it. Those that refused would then have a tough time promoting their products and services.
The sort of things that might be included in the charter (in no particular order):
1. No crass advertising, i.e. suggesting that profits are 'easy' and 'simple' and attained in only 'one hour per week'.etc, etc. There should be no mention of specific monetary amounts - only a percentage of capital. (How many newbies start their trading careers believing that they will make £10k a month from £1k starting capital). See attached thumbnail on the T2W homepage implying £500 per day profit. Based on what - starting capital of £1k or £1 million?
2. Those that claim to offer a 'proven strategy' should be required to submit proof of its efficacy to an independent party for verification.
3. Upon receipt of a deposit, the vendor should supply contact details of 2-3 past clients who've paid the full fee so that the prospective customer can get feedback direct from existing customers.
4. Vendors should agree not to sell their services to people who are obviously unsuited. E.g. a vendor offering detailed instruction in the art of level II should decline a student who has no idea what bid and offer are.
5. If a particular strategy or system is being sold, vendors would only advertise a conservative profit expectancy based on a very small risk per trade, say 2% max.
These are just a few ideas for starters, doubtless other members will have many more.
Tim.
Following on . . .
My little brain appears to have woken up and is generating ideas. Unusual for this time of day on a Sunday! It would be good if your investigation resulted in something practical that wannabe traders who are green about the gills can understand and use with ease. One answer might be a 'Vendor's Charter'. Assuming that it isn't adopted by the FSA, it would have to be a voluntary charter. Nonetheless, support from the likes of T2W could ensure that the well known and respected vendors subscribed to it. Those that refused would then have a tough time promoting their products and services.
The sort of things that might be included in the charter (in no particular order):
1. No crass advertising, i.e. suggesting that profits are 'easy' and 'simple' and attained in only 'one hour per week'.etc, etc. There should be no mention of specific monetary amounts - only a percentage of capital. (How many newbies start their trading careers believing that they will make £10k a month from £1k starting capital). See attached thumbnail on the T2W homepage implying £500 per day profit. Based on what - starting capital of £1k or £1 million?
2. Those that claim to offer a 'proven strategy' should be required to submit proof of its efficacy to an independent party for verification.
3. Upon receipt of a deposit, the vendor should supply contact details of 2-3 past clients who've paid the full fee so that the prospective customer can get feedback direct from existing customers.
4. Vendors should agree not to sell their services to people who are obviously unsuited. E.g. a vendor offering detailed instruction in the art of level II should decline a student who has no idea what bid and offer are.
5. If a particular strategy or system is being sold, vendors would only advertise a conservative profit expectancy based on a very small risk per trade, say 2% max.
These are just a few ideas for starters, doubtless other members will have many more.
Tim.
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trendie
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Good luck, Zenda !!
You need to be very specific about what exactly constitutes a scam.
Remember, most of these so-called courses are classed as "for education purposes only".
Also, "past performance does not guarantee future performance".
Also, given that 90% of traders lose, what edge would a course give you?
( If going on a course tripled your chances of staying in the game, then a course that claimed that 30% of its students are still trading would be deemed to be a run-away success. )
Fact of the matter is, the majority will STILL lose, albeit more slowly.
(there was another thread here which suggested that training a group to use money-management increased their chances of staying in the game ten-fold, against a control-group. )
also; I believe that many traders may start to lose confidence in their system after 3 or 4 consecutive losses, and very few continue trading after 6 or 7 losses, even though a system has been shown to have a positive-edge. Its back to the mind-set of the student.
So, unless you want this thread to deteriorate into another Secker / Winters whinge-fest, you need to define the responsibilities of the STUDENTS TO FOLLOW THE RULES as well as any responsibilities of the course provider.
I like the idea of the students being turned away for being unfit - but these people will not take the hint they are unprepared, they will simply spend the money elsewhere, lose it, and come here crying for sympathy.
Nonetheless, I wish you the best of luck.
Look forward to your next youtube instalment.
You need to be very specific about what exactly constitutes a scam.
Remember, most of these so-called courses are classed as "for education purposes only".
Also, "past performance does not guarantee future performance".
Also, given that 90% of traders lose, what edge would a course give you?
( If going on a course tripled your chances of staying in the game, then a course that claimed that 30% of its students are still trading would be deemed to be a run-away success. )
Fact of the matter is, the majority will STILL lose, albeit more slowly.
(there was another thread here which suggested that training a group to use money-management increased their chances of staying in the game ten-fold, against a control-group. )
also; I believe that many traders may start to lose confidence in their system after 3 or 4 consecutive losses, and very few continue trading after 6 or 7 losses, even though a system has been shown to have a positive-edge. Its back to the mind-set of the student.
So, unless you want this thread to deteriorate into another Secker / Winters whinge-fest, you need to define the responsibilities of the STUDENTS TO FOLLOW THE RULES as well as any responsibilities of the course provider.
I like the idea of the students being turned away for being unfit - but these people will not take the hint they are unprepared, they will simply spend the money elsewhere, lose it, and come here crying for sympathy.
Nonetheless, I wish you the best of luck.
Look forward to your next youtube instalment.
damianoakley
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Hi Tim,
Some interesting points, most of which I would whole-heartedly agree with.
The only point I would question is number 3. I would not expect any of my clients to help me in attracting other clients and I would feel uncomfortable approaching them to ask this of them. My clients want to learn how to trade and stay in contact with me to discuss their trading, not to be bothered by potential clients who want to confirm my validity as a competent trader. Potential clients can speak to me directly and meet me face-to-face in order to determine that validity for themselves.
I agree with your other points though - some of the claims that are made in some adverts absolutely astounds me!
Thanks
Damian
Some interesting points, most of which I would whole-heartedly agree with.
The only point I would question is number 3. I would not expect any of my clients to help me in attracting other clients and I would feel uncomfortable approaching them to ask this of them. My clients want to learn how to trade and stay in contact with me to discuss their trading, not to be bothered by potential clients who want to confirm my validity as a competent trader. Potential clients can speak to me directly and meet me face-to-face in order to determine that validity for themselves.
I agree with your other points though - some of the claims that are made in some adverts absolutely astounds me!
Thanks
Damian
fxmarkets
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Lord How Am I to Live?
hmm, Governments scam the hell out of the public, so why would they give a toss? Good role models for Jonny boy to take what ye can I would of thought.
Are not the vendors covered by disclaimers ie no guarentee's etc..... whats wrong with someone charging 5 grand say and saying this is how i trade or have traded etc, then follows the disclaimer , take it or leave it.
Adults are big boys n girls are they Not ? Tough.
are they doing anything illegal ? they might choke you on a moral viewpoint based on your sense of whats right or wrong, a sale is sale ,doesn't matter what the product is does it ?
take their money, make the sale. they are salesman. Fair play.
Now if you want to teach to help people and not sell, then simple, dont charge a cent, or suggest a request a donation, and give it all to charity mate.
If you are selling as vendors are, then bum's on seats, in out , keep pumpin to make that sale. get the money.
I'd say some aspect of the deck's in the trading arena are more likely to be more corrupt than a salesman's technique to get punters to part with cash. why not go for the big dogs, not the pusher's or the junkies?
governements want it bent.. it has to be dont it?
Good luck Zenda... but if you are miffed at people charging what seem like big sums to you, then maybe you could charge the same or more ?or alter your perspective why not? £50. to £50K thats not the issue is it? selling is selling. if you want to increase Gross Profit, then increase of fee's charged is 1 technique that may deliver on that.
Now lets make sales.
If its a quality of product issue that you are miffed with from these trading vendors, then what should they be teaching, sorry, Selling ? Not many have any idea about Trading . Thats somewhat not needed, just flog em the image, the lifestyle? yeah? thats sellin.
How much can the market stand for my product? grind it up baby, lets make more money and larf at people who charge only 1 % of what we do , maybe its jealousy, envy, maybe its marketing and publicity, can't be morals, trading aint about morals is it?
After all someone could give small hard earned for info and think it dog sh!T , could they not and it seems the majority want to pay even more money for similar. So it makes biz sense to charge more if people are gonna pay it? whats the problem?
That youtube's good isnt it? cheers fly .
Oh free will ,cheers chief.
hmm, Governments scam the hell out of the public, so why would they give a toss? Good role models for Jonny boy to take what ye can I would of thought.
Are not the vendors covered by disclaimers ie no guarentee's etc..... whats wrong with someone charging 5 grand say and saying this is how i trade or have traded etc, then follows the disclaimer , take it or leave it.
Adults are big boys n girls are they Not ? Tough.
are they doing anything illegal ? they might choke you on a moral viewpoint based on your sense of whats right or wrong, a sale is sale ,doesn't matter what the product is does it ?
take their money, make the sale. they are salesman. Fair play.
Now if you want to teach to help people and not sell, then simple, dont charge a cent, or suggest a request a donation, and give it all to charity mate.
If you are selling as vendors are, then bum's on seats, in out , keep pumpin to make that sale. get the money.
I'd say some aspect of the deck's in the trading arena are more likely to be more corrupt than a salesman's technique to get punters to part with cash. why not go for the big dogs, not the pusher's or the junkies?
governements want it bent.. it has to be dont it? Good luck Zenda... but if you are miffed at people charging what seem like big sums to you, then maybe you could charge the same or more ?or alter your perspective why not? £50. to £50K thats not the issue is it? selling is selling. if you want to increase Gross Profit, then increase of fee's charged is 1 technique that may deliver on that.
Now lets make sales.
If its a quality of product issue that you are miffed with from these trading vendors, then what should they be teaching, sorry, Selling ? Not many have any idea about Trading . Thats somewhat not needed, just flog em the image, the lifestyle? yeah? thats sellin.
How much can the market stand for my product? grind it up baby, lets make more money and larf at people who charge only 1 % of what we do , maybe its jealousy, envy, maybe its marketing and publicity, can't be morals, trading aint about morals is it?
After all someone could give small hard earned for info and think it dog sh!T , could they not and it seems the majority want to pay even more money for similar. So it makes biz sense to charge more if people are gonna pay it? whats the problem?
That youtube's good isnt it? cheers fly .
Oh free will ,cheers chief.
rols
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fxmarkets said:hmm, Governments scam the hell out of the public, so why would they give a toss? Good role models for Jonny boy to take what ye can I would of thought.
Are not the vendors covered by disclaimers ie no guarentee's etc..... whats wrong with someone charging 5 grand say and saying this is how i trade or have traded etc, then follows the disclaimer , take it or leave it.
Adults are big boys n girls are they Not ? Tough.
are they doing anything illegal ? they might choke you on a moral viewpoint based on your sense of whats right or wrong, a sale is sale ,doesn't matter what the product is does it ?
take their money, make the sale. they are salesman. Fair play.
Now if you want to teach to help people and not sell, then simple, dont charge a cent, or suggest a request a donation, and give it all to charity mate.
If you are selling as vendors are, then bum's on seats, in out , keep pumpin to make that sale. get the money.
I'd say some aspect of the deck's in the trading arena are more likely to be more corrupt than a salesman's technique to get punters to part with cash. why not go for the big dogs, not the pusher's or the junkies?
Good luck Zenda... but if you are miffed at people charging what seem like big sums to you, then maybe you could charge the same or more ?or alter your perspective why not? £50. to £50K thats not the issue is it? selling is selling. if you want to increase Gross Profit, then increase of fee's charged is 1 technique that may deliver on that.
Now lets make sales.
If its a quality of product issue that you are miffed with from these trading vendors, then what should they be teaching, sorry, Selling ? Not many have any idea about Trading . Thats somewhat not needed, just flog em the image, the lifestyle? yeah? thats sellin.
How much can the market stand for my product? grind it up baby, lets make more money and larf at people who charge only 1 % of what we do , maybe its jealousy, envy, maybe its marketing and publicity, can't be morals, trading aint about morals is it?
After all someone could give small hard earned for info and think it dog sh!T , could they not and it seems the majority want to pay even more money for similar. So it makes biz sense to charge more if people are gonna pay it? whats the problem?
That youtube's good isnt it? cheers fly .
Oh free will ,cheers chief.
Howdy FX - this is one of your best ever posts! Cheered up a rather miserable day down here in Bude.
Must say just to add I find all these scammers amusing apart from the ones that clog up my email.
It's a bit rich methinks for Zenda the Venda to start chucking rocks around green houses....
Everybody's scamming everybody else. That's life innit?
I read this morning that Gordon Brown is scamming 48% of everything we earn. Now that is worth moaning about....
rols said:
They do say that a fool and his money are soon parted. For what I have seen on these boards it, certainly, seems as if some folk have more money than sense. That still does not mean that I condone scamming but, anyway, i suppose that I am old enough to realise that there is nothing new under the sun and let everyone get on with it.
Split
timsk
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Rols,rols said:
Quite so Rols, that is life - more's the pity. But that doesn't make it right and we shouldn't condone it. If everyone took your attitude and that expressed by fxmarkets, there would be total chaos. For example, extend your 'scam anyone you can' approach to the food industry - for example - and see what happens. There will be hospital beds overflowing with patients suffering from Salmonella - or worse. Your attitude is nothing short of utterly deplorable.
Tim.
rols
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timsk said:
This is a wind up, isn't it?
Nobody of your intelligence would misquote another and then turn it into a personal attack hoping to incite discord and unease.
The recent media coverage of Jack Straw for example is irresponsible and lazy.
Now this I do consider deplorable.
Zenda
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The Wally's always appear on this site!
Hey Good Posts - S'pose as I was brought up with some principles - I care, with over 40 years in the industry I ask myself why I bother when igonoraniouses will always challenge you!
I don't want to live my life not caring and letting the Mugs and the naive get ripped off - I joinened the RAF at 15 so I know what discipline is - I thank whoever, l that I still live with principles of being straight and I care about the weak and vunerable in our over governed society - I feel good about it - I like people, I care about people, I enjoy with being with people - fat, thin, black, white or yellow rich or famous - I (and they) enjoy each others company - It does not take long on this forum for the W.......rs to put their heads above the parapet!! it's happening now,
People are in poverty and latch on to their hopes of dreams and riches - I for one will still keep my principals and standards - Not for the money I gain but for the satisfaction it gives me! and for the fact thar these Rip off Merchants/Scam crooks make their living off the vunerable and weak?
At least I've got this thread thinking!
Hey Good Posts - S'pose as I was brought up with some principles - I care, with over 40 years in the industry I ask myself why I bother when igonoraniouses will always challenge you!
I don't want to live my life not caring and letting the Mugs and the naive get ripped off - I joinened the RAF at 15 so I know what discipline is - I thank whoever, l that I still live with principles of being straight and I care about the weak and vunerable in our over governed society - I feel good about it - I like people, I care about people, I enjoy with being with people - fat, thin, black, white or yellow rich or famous - I (and they) enjoy each others company - It does not take long on this forum for the W.......rs to put their heads above the parapet!! it's happening now,
People are in poverty and latch on to their hopes of dreams and riches - I for one will still keep my principals and standards - Not for the money I gain but for the satisfaction it gives me! and for the fact thar these Rip off Merchants/Scam crooks
make their living off the vunerable and weak?At least I've got this thread thinking!
timsk
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Rols,rols said:
I always value your comments and read your posts with great interest. I most certainly am not attacking you personally and I'm equally adamant that I'm not trying to incite discord and unease. That's the absolute antithesis of what I'm about and why I post on T2W. I apologise unreservedly if this is the impression that I've given you. However, I do disagree strongly with the view that you (and fxmarkets) expressed - which was the focus of my post; nothing personal against you I assure you. As for misquoting you; you've lost me there, I'm afraid. Love you lots, promise.
Tim.
rols
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timsk said:Rols,
I always value your comments and read your posts with great interest. I most certainly am not attacking you personally and I'm equally adamant that I'm not trying to incite discord and unease. That's the absolute antithesis of what I'm about and why I post on T2W. I apologise unreservedly if this is the impression that I've given you. However, I do disagree strongly with the view that you (and fxmarkets) expressed - which was the focus of my post; nothing personal against you I assure you. As for misquoting you; you've lost me there, I'm afraid. Love you lots, promise.
Tim.
Everybody's scamming everybody else. That's life innit?
That's wot I said and although intended to be light hearted, there is many a truth said in jest. Call me old fashioned but I've never bought any systems off the shelf as I'm a bit of an empiricalist at heart. I can't understand why anybody could be taken in by these laughable snake oil sales tactics.
BTW still love you......
As for zenda the Venda :cheesy: he is already in a compromising position and this steaming conflict of interest should render his contributions to this debate null and void IMHO
dick_dastardly
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timsk said:
Well I guess I must have an utterly deplorable attitude.
As long as there are mugs out there dumb enough to hand over their money then there will be people ruthless enough to take it from them ( I also blame drug addicts for the existence of drug dealers ).
Having said that, I think this could prove to be a very interesting thread.
I don't know if it will do any good but it certainly won't do any harm.
Good luck with it Zenda
dd
dick_dastardly said:
I'm afraid that that is the truth. All that is possible is that one can feel sorry for the victims. Anyone with spare cash, a get rich quick mentality and a naive, trusting, attitude towards humanity, in general, is going to be rich pickings.
Split
Zenda
Your video seems to me to suggest two general courses of action you intend to take.
One is that of "exposing" the scam merchants. This is the kind of thing that goes on in threads on this board fairly often. It is a laudable activity but within the confines of this board will not help many of the people who fall victim. If you find a way of exposing the scam merchants so that people who have not found boards like this one will be warned then great. Perhaps the use of Youtube will get your message wider.
The other is to, in some way, involve the government and presumably get some legislation in place. I think it incredibly unlikely that government will get involved but if it does how do you think legislation would be drawn up which would stop scam merchants whilst allowing you to continue to sell training and/or mentoring services?
Personally I can't get too over excited about the problem. People who rip off individuals who want to get very rich for not much effort are morally wrong but there are worse injustices in the world. There is an aspect of "natural selection" about the world of trading and the scam merchants are just part of that.
Best of Luck but be careful what you wish for
Gareth
Your video seems to me to suggest two general courses of action you intend to take.
One is that of "exposing" the scam merchants. This is the kind of thing that goes on in threads on this board fairly often. It is a laudable activity but within the confines of this board will not help many of the people who fall victim. If you find a way of exposing the scam merchants so that people who have not found boards like this one will be warned then great. Perhaps the use of Youtube will get your message wider.
The other is to, in some way, involve the government and presumably get some legislation in place. I think it incredibly unlikely that government will get involved but if it does how do you think legislation would be drawn up which would stop scam merchants whilst allowing you to continue to sell training and/or mentoring services?
Personally I can't get too over excited about the problem. People who rip off individuals who want to get very rich for not much effort are morally wrong but there are worse injustices in the world. There is an aspect of "natural selection" about the world of trading and the scam merchants are just part of that.
Best of Luck but be careful what you wish for
Gareth
Gadgetman
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garethb said:
Some really good points Gareth but it's also good to know somebody is prepared to step up to the mark sometimes.
My biggest concern on watching the Youtube video was the possibility of Zenda leaving himeself open to prosecution for libel or slander. He's got to have some pretty good factual evidence to defend against a law suit, I would think? Already mentioning specific names in connection with his suggested campaign could cause problems. He might, at least, end up with some hefty legal costs.
I also tried to think of any justification that Zenda could use in relation to the offer he made to the Bramble. The best I could come up with was that it was "us traders" against the companies and he was sharing advantages with other traders. It still doesn't sit right, though.
Three things I've learned:
1. Pass on opinions, in private and off the record, to others regarding the benefits of paying for certain "training" courses.
2. Be sure your sins will find you out.
3. Never PM The Bramble
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