Mr Charts Training

Simon

Active member
133 1
Eva,

I posted my thoughts, on the training I had with Mr. C last year, somewhere on these boards, might be of some use, albeit probably limited, if you can track it down.

One criticism (of myself?) of the techniques taught, that sticks in my mind, is that I found I was spreading myself too thinly by trying to follow a not insubstantial number of stocks & found greater potential success would have been possible by concentrating on a more limited number of instruments.

In terms of gaining knowledge & developing an appropriate strategy, my current recommendation would be to read the 'No indicators' threads thoroughly & continue your learning along similar lines.
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,612 2,383
Oh Dear, Oh dear . . .

I understand completely that people want to ask the questions which will provide the answers to enable them to make the decision as to whether or not Richard's course is for them. I felt exactly the same way before taking the plunge. I mean EXACTLY; asking the same basic question that was posed at the start of this thread re. the success - or lack of it - of past students. What I've since found out is that the success or otherwise of past students is completely, totally and utterly irrelevant to me and my personal situation. This is the point that so many people seem to find so hard to understand. If all Richard's past students are now immensely profitable trading his methodologies - it does NOT follow that his next student will be too. If most are losing money (as is incorrectly asserted above) - it doesn't mean his next student will lose money to. The opening paragraph of the substantial set of notes that Richard provides his students states:

"All trading is speculative in nature and involves substantial risk of loss. Please note I do not give investment advice. I teach how I trade and it is the individual client's own responsibility how they trade".

Forgive me for labouring the point, but the key words here are "I TEACH HOW I TRADE". The pertinent question to ask former students is this: 'Having attended Richard's course, do you understand how Richard trades?' If 95% of them say no, then you might conclude he is a poor teacher and the course isn't worth the money. However, I suspect his success rate is close to 100%. Richard never promised me anything other than to teach me HOW HE TRADES. This he did very well in my opinion. What I do with this knowledge is my own responsibility. I find it quite extraordinary the way people moan that just because they've paid the course fee this entitles them to a passport to instant wealth. It's naive to think it's that simple! So many people are unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions and are quick to blame others when things don't work out as they had envisaged. Richard does not take responsibility for the actions of his students. How on earth could he? Ditto for all other tutors, teachers and mentors etc.

I believe strongly that Richard, Naz and others should be put under the spotlight and their methodologies examined closely. This is right and proper IMO and, I suspect, a view with which they would both concur. But peeps, be reasonable, judge them by what they claim to do, not by what you thought they would do. Don't project your hopes and aspirations onto them and then blame them when they don't materialise. Lastly, to dismissi his course by summing it up in a few words or suggesting that he teaches rather than trades isn't accurate or helpful for anybody.

Tim.
 
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neil

Legendary member
5,167 750
Head and brick wall

Well done TIMSK - I wish I could have put it so accurately.

I hope some of the wannabees here do not dither as much when making trades.
Like picking washing machines or cars - trading is largely governed by your SELF.

One tries to help :rolleyes:
 

oatman

Senior member
2,879 22
I'm pleased someone said it. All the knowledge in the world is no good if you can't pull the trigger, and I've seen plenty "freeze" over the years.
 

theknifemac

Well-known member
340 0
Timsk you have hit the nail on the head there, well done !
 

LittleWhiteBull

Junior member
48 0
Richard does not take responsibility for the actions of his students. How on earth could he? Ditto for all other tutors, teachers and mentors etc.

Yes but I think most would or should question whether we should send our kids into a classroom with a teacher whose students failed consistently at the subject he taught wouldn't we? I don't think teachers have the luxury of adding a disclaimer that it is the student's responsibility to learn the subject and the teacher cannot be held responsible for failure. Of course the student's ability to learn and to continue to develop what has been taught is what it's all about but if the teacher is good, the student will not forget what was taught - I think that is true for most who are willing to seek their training and especially when they have paid for it.

I think it is important to know how people have got on with Richard and Naz's training as they use this website for marketing.

I had a 1-2-1 training day with Naz last week, it was very helpful, yes he did trade live, yes he did make money (lots) and quickly. I did learn how to do it but I have to invest more in the tools to do the job now, but already I am making more profitable trades, albeit only demo still - which I intend to do until I have proven to myself that I can consistently trade a profitable system which suits me, using the knowledge that Naz gave me.
 

a320

Established member
689 8
I wonder if Mark ( aka FTSE Beater Mod ) would be willing or kind enough to express his thoughts ???

Thanks

CJ
 

Simon

Active member
133 1
timsk said:
I understand completely that people want to ask the questions which will provide the answers to enable them to make the decision as to whether or not Richard's course is for them. I felt exactly the same way before taking the plunge. I mean EXACTLY; asking the same basic question that was posed at the start of this thread re. the success - or lack of it - of past students. What I've since found out is that the success or otherwise of past students is completely, totally and utterly irrelevant to me and my personal situation. This is the point that so many people seem to find so hard to understand. If all Richard's past students are now immensely profitable trading his methodologies - it does NOT follow that his next student will be too. If most are losing money (as is incorrectly asserted above) - it doesn't mean his next student will lose money to.

Quite right Tim, however, past performance is no guarantee of success & all that, although the probability of success is far enhanced if the vast proportion of Mr. C's students have been successful, & vice versa. Would you not agree?

On a slightly different note & referring back to my earlier post, I've just reviewed the 'No indicators' thread & it has become a little 'Fighting without fighting' lately, however I hope this does not prove a disincentive for anyone to read through it.
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,612 2,383
Hi Simon,
I understand your point completely and, on the face of it, what you say appears logical; obvious even. However, (you just knew that was coming, didn't you :cheesy: ) I fear you are falling prey to gamblers fallacy. I expect you know what this is, but for the benefit of newer T2W members who don't, it goes something along these lines. Mr. Punter at the Roulette wheel notices the ball lands on red 10 times consecutively. Gamblers fallacy dictates that surely the ball will land on black on the 11th spin of the wheel and he bets accordingly. It doesn't, and he loses. Now, having landed on red 11 times in a row, Mr. Punter is even more convinced that the ball will land on black on the 12th spin of the wheel and bets accordingly. This goes on ad infinitum, usually with Mr. Punter betting more heavily each time, convinced that the ball can't continue to land on red time after time. But it does and Mr. Punter leaves the casino in disbelief and with empty pockets. The probability of the ball landing on black with the next spin of the wheel does NOT increase over time. It is ALWAYS 50/50 (excluding the 0 which I believe is white).

Whilst one might be encouraged by Mr. Charts' students becoming successful traders, their success (or failure) has little or no bearing on our own probability of success. There is one very simple reason why some students fail. They are not Mr. Charts. Period; end of story. No one will trade like Mr. Charts except Mr. Charts himself. He says his methods are "simple". They are. He says it's "not rocket science". It certainly isn't. He says there are big profits to be made intra day, not everyday perhaps, but several times a week at least. He's demonstrated this time and again very plainly, very openly, for all to witness on these very boards. Naz too for that matter. The ones that succeed may be able to duplicate his methods better than the ones who fail, but ultimately, their success is down to them and their unique abilities.The problem, as Neil pointed out earlier in the thread, has absolutely nothing to do with Mr. Charts, Naz or whoever. The problem and, most importantly, the solution, lies within each one of us. I believe that I have the potential to be a good trader. I am not a clone of Mr. Charts and I don't want to be one. (Okay, there's a tiny lie here, but that is just jealousy on my part because I'm not as successful as he is). I'm ME, you are YOU. Mr. Charts, Naz and the like can't make any of us successful traders an herein lies the rub. . . this is something we all have to learn to do ourselves. You could have a day's coaching with David Beckham. You wouldn't expect a premiere league club to come knocking on your door wanting to sign you up the day after, would you? Yet aspiring traders expect to be profitable straight after a day's coaching with Mr. C!!!! However, in time, you might become a great footballer and even eclipse Mr. Beckham. The coaching may prove to be pivotal in your career but, ultimately, your success will result from your own dedication, focus, tenacity, drive, commitment etc., etc. In this respect, trading is no different to football.

Tim.
 

Crossroads

Junior member
11 0
timsk said:
Hi Simon,
I fear you are falling prey to gamblers fallacy....... The probability of the ball landing on black with the next spin of the wheel does NOT increase over time. It is ALWAYS 50/50 (excluding the 0 which I believe is white).

A different situation entirely. You are suggesting that the liklihood of success after training from Mr Charts is a 50/50 gamble, that success is random. If Mr Charts trains 100 students the law of averages suggests that a certain percentage of those should have a higher chance of success than the others no matter who teaches them. If 99 fail, then this means there is a high probability they are failing because of what they have been taught. I am not suggesting these numbers are in fact the case, but we do know that there are more than 100 past students, and at this time not one has come to this thread to say they are trading the methods successfully. Perhaps that means something, perhaps it does not.

He says there are big profits to be made intra day, not everyday perhaps, but several times a week at least. He's demonstrated this time and again very plainly, very openly, for all to witness on these very boards.

He has never demomstrated this in a live situation. Posting on a forum is not the same as trading live, and proves little or nothing. Naz trades live in front of his students, Mr Charts does not. Whether he hs the ability to trade himself or not is, to a degree, besides the point. If you wanted to learn German, would you be happy if you paid a language teacher a large sum of money to explain some gramatical rules (which could be found in a book), list some vocabulary (which could be found in a dictionary), but never actually speak German? Certainly the lesson might have some value, but it would have a lot more value if there was some practical element, otherwise what is the added benefit?

The problem, as Neil pointed out earlier in the thread, has absolutely nothing to do with Mr. Charts, Naz or whoever.

Again, I beg to differ. Some of what Mr Charts teaches is downright dangerous. Take his exit method - close half your position when you see two bars against you. Two bars against you in a trend is a retracement, and is exactly when many successful traders will be entering a position!

Yet aspiring traders expect to be profitable straight after a day's coaching with Mr. C!!!!

Because in his pre-sales emails (at least those I have seen), this is what he tells you will happen. He suggests that almost all of his students become consistently profitable within a few months.

The coaching may prove to be pivotal in your career but, ultimately, your success will result from your own dedication, focus, tenacity, drive, commitment etc., etc. In this respect, trading is no different to football.

Tim.

Something we do agree on at least!

XRoads
 

Marketmaker2004

Newbie
6 0
Tim,

I completely understand where you are coming from. I dont know how long ago you trained with Richard but from your posts it seems like not too long ago! I know exacly what you mean because one year ago I was exactly like you and thought how wonderful Richard was. I thought Richard was the best teacher. I will be surprised if you think the same thing 6-8 months down the line. The reason I know is because I am in contact with quite a few of Richard's ex-students. We all feel similar.
A good teacher is defined by how well he can teach and most importantly teaching is not only theoretical but practical also. That is where experience comes in. If people learnt by just learning theory, we would all be a fat-arsed nation of experts by reading books. However it is a fact that people learn by not reading from books but by doing and learning practically. That is one of the areas where Richard's course fails. Since you say you have been to Naz you would then know what I am talking about and thus the difference between trading with Richard and Alan. Alan will show you in practice LIVE. That’s the way it should be done.

Tim you are missing the underlying point in my post. If you read my post carefully I never said Richard was a crap teacher or Richard's strategies were crap or that Richard was a crap trader. I didnt blame these things on Richard. Richard is none of these things. He sayes he teaches the same strategies, methods, money management in the same manner that he trades. We have to take his word that he does. Obviously he posts such fantastic moneymaking trades so he must be an elite trader.
However the fact is that unless Richard's coaching is practical how can his students succeed. Yest he refuses to acknowledge this. In the example I gave in my previous post where many of us got together to get him to trade live to show u, his excuse for not demonstrating live was that he might fail in front of us and not be able to find any trades. I nor the others understood this as this is the fact of life of trading and we said that was fine. We were prepared to pay to sit and go through an eventless day!! However Richard continued to say that he wouldnt do it.

As has been pointed out by people such as Neil and Oatman above and yourself it is the practicable aspects that count at the end of the day. If you don’t know how or when to pull the trigger you are screwed. These are the things that should be taught shouldn’t they? The practicable aspects? They say hindsight is such a wonderful thing. Over a year on I have come to the conclusion that having a one-2-one practical session together maybe with even small trades is the best way. You gave an example of footballers. Good analogy but the thing you missed is that footballers are shown the methods by the coaches PRACTICALLY and THEN the footballers practise 24 hours a day.

MarketMaker2004
 

pkfryer

Active member
243 0
Interesting posts. This is obviously something that we many have strong opinions of.

I agree with the view that a teacher should be judged by the success of the students. A teacher has responsibility for the success of the student. As far as mr charts is concerned his emails do try and convince you that you will succeed if you use his methods and for £950 you would expect this. Who is going to fork out almost a thousand pounds if they dont think they will succeed by the technique??

If all you get is something you can get from a book, then you may as well save yourself £900 and get a bl**dy good book on the subject and read that! The whole point of 1 to 1 sessions is practical demonstrations and tailored tuition to your particular needs.

I am sure that we would not have learned to ride a bike if we hadn't had our mother or father holding the seat when they took off the stabalisers! We would have probably kept falling down and gave up! What you need is 100% practical tuition, where the teacher takes you by the hand and guides you through live trading, decision making when faced against uncertainty... live trades! 1 to 1 = practical.. if all you get is theortical then you read a book or attend a seminar!

To put the teacher - student thing into perspective! Would we be so happy if a flying instructor had students with a high failure rate!!!?? But of cause the teacher can't be blamed can he :S Wake up!! If a method is so good and a teacher so good... the student will almost be guaranteed to succeed! Why should trading be any different? If its subject judgement of a situation.. this can be taught!

Judge a teacher by the students success... that is the only sure gauge of their worth.
 

Salty Gibbon

Experienced member
1,535 6
Hold on.

Supposedly 95% of would-be traders fail for various reasons.

They probably all take varying routes along the educational roads and then for some reason or other, they all fail.

I do not think that you can attribute a 95% failure rate to poor teaching or poor education.

There is obviously more to it.

Basically, I believe that no matter what your trading education, when it comes to the crunch and you put your own money on the line, it is then totally down to you. The gut-wrenching feeling of placing your hard-earned money at extreme risk can make you throw all your education out of the window and act in a reckless manner.

It is more down to psychology than education and whether or not you have got the balls when the chips are down.
 

JJL3142

Active member
174 0
Learn to think for yourself ..

I suppose this board is a reflection on reality ..

Teachers are not infallible - they are human - people here expect the price of the holy grail to be cheap as possible (or £950).

I have never met MrCharts but he is always very helpful on the boards - like many others - but there are a few people who expect their cakes and to eat them (while they are hand held) ... If you have a gripe about something - dont hide behind your nicks - talk to MrC (I will assume he is a reasonable man :)) - Too many keyboard warriors/wingers who expect everything on a sliver platter and their butts wiped !!


[Sorry its been a long day in front of a screen - final say is "BE A MAN" !!]
 

timsk

Legendary member
7,612 2,383
Hi Xroads,
1. Gamblers Fallacy
No, I am not for one minute suggesting that the probability of success is 50/50 following training from Mr. Charts. Far from it! It may be more, it maybe less, it's impossible to calculate. I took his training expecting the bias to move in a positive direction, but that's all. The point about mentioning the gamblers fallacy was to try (desperately) to get people out of the mindset that if '95% of students are successful, I will be too'. Or, conversely, 'if 95% of students are unsuccessful, I will probably be unsuccessful as well' and therefore I won't do the training. I would agree with you completely if, IF Mr. Charts coached people on HOW to trade. As I've said repeatedly, he does NOT do this. He teaches people how HE trades. If you accept that he is a successful - i.e. profitable trader - there is no link between him and his students. I repeat; ask his students if they understand how HE trades. I'd be very surprised if less than 95% responded in the affirmative. Therefore, by extension, he is not only a successful trader, but a successful coach as well. It is NOT his responsibility that students do not duplicate his methods exactly and achieve similar results to him.

2. Live Trading
He posts trades in real time as he enters and exits them with charts. If you check the time/date stamp then you can verify them. I (and I assume all his other students) am more than satisfied that he can 'walk the walk 'on this basis and isn't a bull**** merchant. I suppose he could be fiddling this in some way to dupe prospective students. This is little short of fraud and extremely serious, if true. As for trading live while coaching, well, he tends to visit students in their homes, whereas Naz receives students to his own home. It would hardly be reasonable to expect him to trade live on a platform he's never used!

3. Exit Strategy
"Some of what Mr. Charts teaches is downright dangerous". Again, I repeat, he teaches how HE trades. If the exit strategy you describe didn't work for HIM, why on earth would he use it, let alone teach it to others? As Richard says at the top of page one on his notes; ". . . it is the individual client's own responsibility how they trade". He doesn't' insist people use this or any other exit strategy, he merely tells them what works for HIM. If one/some of his strategies don't work for you, don't use 'em!

4. Post Tuition
Students go to Mr. C' to learn how HE trades. He is successful at trading the methodology that he teaches. Surely it is logical then, that if said student goes out and follows the methodology to the letter, then they too will be successful? This is, of course, the tricky bit and the chief reason why those who fail, fail. But that's NOT Mr. C's fault! He is not responsible for the actions of the student. The student IS. It's the student's fault they failed, not Mr. C's.

5. Commitment etc.
Yes Xroads, it's good to agree on something! I guess we'll have to agree to differ on the other points. ;)

Hi Marketmaker 2004,
After my reply to Xroads above and my last couple of posts, my comments to you may come across as being contrary just for the sake of it! I apologise in advance if this is how it appears. I normally shy away from controversy, but I've felt a tad guilty about not sticking up for Mr.C' in the past as he's received a torrent of criticism - most of which is completely unwarranted, IMO. Anyway, to respond to your comments. I had my 1-2-1 with Richard in early December 2002, before you, I suspect. You say you're in contact with quite a few of Richard's ex-students who feel as you do. Well, now you're in contact with one who feels differently! I completely agree that theory is no substitute for practice and 'live' experience. Executing 100's of live trades is invaluable and necessary experience to become successful, but this will take weeks, months or even years. A few hours on one day with one coach is neither here nor there in the overall sceme of things and will make little or no difference to the novice trader. I say this from experience; remember I've had a 1-2-1 with Naz as well. I don't believe I've accused you of saying Richard is a crap teacher, so I'm not sure where this comment comes from???? As for fellow ex-students clubbing together to get Richard to trade live, you are making reference to a private members web site which, you will know as well as I, is confidential. I don't propose to break that confidentiality agreement by discussing it's content on these boards. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out, but tough! The last para of your post concerned the practical aspects of trading. I can't speak for others, but with me, Richard provided umpteen number of charts printed out showing exact entry and exit points to accompany the written notes. Anyone whose been in this game for more than five minutes will have read numerous times already that ten traders trading the same instrument with the same methodology will all enter and exit trades differently. Obviously, it's not possible for Richard to be at the side of all of his students and tell them the exact moment to pull the trigger. Again, it's not what he offered to do and, ultimately, it isn't helpful to us. We have to learn to stand on our own two feet as traders and take responsibility for our own actions.

Happy and successful trading everyone! :)

Tim.
 
 
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