I want to believe that it is not random, but this argues against me

You're both right, of course!
While it is possible to be very profitable with a very poor win : loss ratio, psychologically it's a very tough gig. My guess is that most traders would struggle to implement a trading strategy successfully that has a worse win : loss ratio than 50%. Not being able to better a random coin toss has gotta mess with your head! I'm sure such traders exist, but they're a rare breed, not least because success with such a strategy requires the trader to be very good at two things:
1. cutting losses quickly, and . . .
2. letting the winners run.
Anyone who's been trading for a while is probably quite good at the first, but relatively few traders ever really master the second.

None of this is fact, it's just my belief based upon reading forums like this one - so I could be very wide of the mark!
Tim.


Face value in this game...does the concept actually exist on a public forum? "My only income is derived from trading", it's not about believing this statement, it's about what lies behind it, i'll explain. My wife has a well paid job and i sit at home all day averaging £100 a week, it's my only income, i'm a pro trader.

I can twist the facts to suit myself, it's a public forum.

It's not hard to make a few quid trading.
 
Face value in this game...does the concept actually exist on a public forum? "My only income is derived from trading", it's not about believing this statement, it's about what lies behind it, i'll explain. My wife has a well paid job and i sit at home all day averaging £100 a week, it's my only income, i'm a pro trader.

I can twist the facts to suit myself, it's a public forum.

It's not hard to make a few quid trading.

Hi Paul,
When I first read your post I thought to myself - fair play - good point. However, upon reflection, I think I'm very happy for someone to call themselves a pro' trader who rakes in £100 or so per week provided that:
A) they're not working from a capital base in excess of £100K and . . .
B) They're consistent.
Earning less than a bank / BS interest rates doesn't cut it, nor does sporadic - inconsistent returns - which probably amounts to the same thing. Regarding your comment that: "It's not hard to make a few quid trading" - assuming the caveats above - I'd suggest that you've got a potential audience of 90,000+ people here on T2W who would disagree with you. And I'd be among them!
;)
Tim.
 
Tim,

That is exactly how many of the well funded pro traders operate. They probe the markets several times to catch a turn of a trend and accept losers each time that they are wrong. They then ride the new trend for weeks or months to massively swing the W\L vs R\R into the positive expectation derived from a huge number in the reward factor.

I have a long standing buddy (hedge fund trader) who used this technique with his back covered by manual brokers orders with a huge stop loss. In order to appreciate what is involved psychologically with such trading you need to be able to imagine that you could go on a several week holiday with instructions to the broker only to ring if the position is closed out. He was able to do that more than once every year.

Many facts that are gleaned from reading and bandied about as pertinent really only apply to a small subset of traders and need investigation rather than acceptance by a large audience. Before switching to futures I traded options from the retail and wholesale side. When I switched I had continuously been in positions for 4.5 years and that was plenty long enough for me. The advent of take it or leave it daytrading was\is a pleasant relief from being perpetually vulnerable.

The downside to short term trading is that you can never make from more than is available within the short term and methods must reflect a realistic approach. For me that means a hit rate of better than 70% with a hoped for R\R of somewhere near 3 to 1. With the hoped for R\R of 3 to 1, I still have to rely on the occasional one way trend day to lift that average because on other days some winners are not a lot better than scratch.

I see a pro trader element crept into a later post:cheesy: LOL I have traded for 25 years and have never been classified as a pro nor would I ever describe myself as one. I have during that time been asked to join a hedge fund (3X) and form a hedge fund with my buddy but no thanks. I think its funny and delusional that the concept of earning £100 per week gives the right to claim pro status as in my case at least it would exactly cover my data costs but no more:cool:
 
Many facts that are gleaned from reading and bandied about as pertinent really only apply to a small subset of traders and need investigation rather than acceptance by a large audience.

True and fantastic observation.

I realised the same thing when going prop.
 
Most people trade too often and the only winners are the middle men creaming off the commissions.

Learn to enjoy watching paint dry and remember even random walkers are ok if they keep moving up and right.
 
Paul71 does like a giggle.



My post was meant as an example, i wasn't referring to myself, but hopefully people get the drift.

The figure/phrase, '35% winners', doesn't really mean much to me personally without being able to delve a bit deeper into other account stats.

It just seems like 'face value' statements rule the day without any consideration.

"Oh he said that in his book, i'll just type that into my next post on t2w,......there, job done."
 
Hi Traduk,
Welcome to T2W!
That is exactly how many of the well funded pro traders operate. They probe the markets several times to catch a turn of a trend and accept losers each time that they are wrong. They then ride the new trend for weeks or months to massively swing the W\L vs R\R into the positive expectation derived from a huge number in the reward factor.
Yes, I understand this completely, but there will only ever be a very small percentage of traders who trade this way (be they pro's, amateurs or the out and out deluded) because, as I said in my ealier post, it's psychologically very tough. Full credit to those that can handle it.

Many facts that are gleaned from reading and bandied about as pertinent really only apply to a small subset of traders and need investigation rather than acceptance by a large audience. Before switching to futures I traded options from the retail and wholesale side. When I switched I had continuously been in positions for 4.5 years and that was plenty long enough for me. The advent of take it or leave it daytrading was\is a pleasant relief from being perpetually vulnerable.
Each to their own. For the most part, the 'reality' of the markets is what exists within our heads. It's like a complex abstract painting in which different people continually see different things. To echo your point, I feel vulnerable the longer I'm in a trade, hence I prefer to get in and out fast, which pretty well excludes me from trading like you used to or like your hedge fund friend does now - even if I had the ability!

The downside to short term trading is that you can never make from more than is available within the short term and methods must reflect a realistic approach. For me that means a hit rate of better than 70% with a hoped for R\R of somewhere near 3 to 1. With the hoped for R\R of 3 to 1, I still have to rely on the occasional one way trend day to lift that average because on other days some winners are not a lot better than scratch.
Well, if in excess of two trades out of three are winners and if, on average, they make three times as much as the losing trades lose, I'd say you're in trading nirvana. Going back to the opening point, I'd wager that most traders would happily settle for these stat's in preference to a strategy that only has a hit rate of only 30% - 40%, but makes more $$$$ in the long run as a result of catching a strong trend.

I see a pro trader element crept into a later post:cheesy: LOL I have traded for 25 years and have never been classified as a pro nor would I ever describe myself as one. I have during that time been asked to join a hedge fund (3X) and form a hedge fund with my buddy but no thanks. I think its funny and delusional that the concept of earning £100 per week gives the right to claim pro status as in my case at least it would exactly cover my data costs but no more:cool:
I quite agree in as much as I can't imagine ever calling myself a 'pro' trader either, even if I had your track record. It's meaningless anyway, no one cares if you or I consider ourselves pro' or not - and nor should they. That said, if I was to try and define what pro' meant and therefore who could legitimately describe themselves as such, the requirements made in my post to Paul71 are good enough for me. Subject to these caveats, whether the dollar return is $100 per minute or $100 per week - really isn't an issue.
Tim.
 
I am surprised by your comments Timsk regarding win / loss ratio.
I find it very calming to know that if i target a 3 to 1 win ratio I only have to be "right" 30% of the time.........

Many people dont picture the logic.
Sorry if this is sucking eggs....... buts lets say you take 10 trades.
3 wins of 3 times your risk = 9units profit.
7 losses of 1 unit risk = -7.

Total.......... 2 units profits.......

Give me those stats all day long mate.
 
I am surprised by your comments Timsk regarding win / loss ratio.
I find it very calming to know that if i target a 3 to 1 win ratio I only have to be "right" 30% of the time.........
Hi D70,
I'm not sure which of my posts you're referring to, so I can't double check what I wrote. But, if it was my last post, then I wrote this: "Well, if in excess of two trades out of three are winners and if, on average, they make three times as much as the losing trades lose, I'd say you're in trading nirvana." Far from only being right only 30% of the time, Traduk claims / aims to be right 70% of the time, hence my comment about being in trading nirvana.

Therefore . . . lets say you take 10 trades.
7 wins of 3 times your risk = 21 units profit.
3 losses of 1 unit risk = -3.
Total.......... 18 units profits.......

You're welcome to the 2 units profit in your illustration if you want, but I know which of the two I prefer!
;)
Tim.
 
I haven't had time to read through all the posts so sorry if this has been posted, but...

katee, if your coin flip chart was allowed to proceed day by day and the public was allowed to trade it in real time, obviously some people would lose and some would win. Over the long term probably 10% of players would come out winners - same as trading the real markets. I'd suggest it's the trader's psychology that makes the difference. Confidence, positive expectations, etc. If sophisticated maths could reliably predict markets, then the brainiacs would all be driving Bentleys. The couple of successful traders I know are average guys who have very positive attitudes about markets.

Just my 2c.
 
Re: nirvana

nirvana


its only any comfort if you execute to absolute perfection otherwise the costs will kill you dead on your nirvana 3:1

2 winners out of 10 (very small valid loss or BE on the 80 % losers)

right huge is the only way to go imvho and experience - funny really because I always used to prefer the numbers the other way round 2 !

You hit the nail on the head. About 18 years ago I calculated a grid of W\L vs R\R which gave parameters for profitability. Comms were heavy back then then and ate a big hole in the stats so even then the prospective profitability was chopped back by 13% (£25 a round trip). Of course it is a fraction of that now.

To get a hoped for 1 to 3 R\R it is imperative to to get in during the first 25% of a move and that is where confirmation of a trend change or continuation is often uncomfortably low. I believed that there was no alternative and changed methodology to accommodate that objective. There will be people viewing that wonder how on earth can you determine 25% of something that is yet to happen:) It is based on the expectation of symmetry and that means that if the previous move was 6 points then after the correction the next trend push will be around 6 points or more if its a true thrust.

The reality is that out of the 7 non losses out of 10, 2 or 3 will be below par which then places the emphasis on the better choices to take up the slack. That means running intraday trends with the occasional one clocking double digit R\R returns.

Within the desired parameters it could easily be argued that my desired results are no better than 40% or 50%. I have investigated improvements on all parameters and can achieve them but it requires a level of trade selection that is mostly looking and not much doing. Overly cautious trade selection often goes against "you have to be in it to win it" as the markets rarely flag a thrust in advance.

Longer time frames (days, weeks or months) take away the need for entry\exit accuracy but can be fairly painful with a recovery period stretching over long periods. I do not mind being under-water for hours of a couple of days but been there and done it with months and for me it hurt and tested patience to the extreme.
 
It's quite odd to read this and reassuring too. I have iterated to a point where my R:R is marginally greater than 1:3 now. It's coupled with a win% of about 35%. It took me quite a while to adjust to the extent of losers simply because it felt very counter-intuitive, nomatter how much I could validate it mathematically.

I kind of liken it to waiting for the right bus at a particular bus-stop (S/R). If one comes along then I'll get on it but if I find it's going in the wrong direction I have to get off it as quickly as possible and walk back to the bus-stop. Many buses stop and I do quite a lot of short walks back to the stop. Then occassionally the right bus will come and I'll just sit on it and enjoy the journey until it stops. Then I find another stop and repeat the whole process again.

The fun part for me to learn was getting better at getting off the wrong buses quickly.
The hard bit was learning the patience to stay on the right bus for as long as you can.
It also took me a while to figure out that there are always buses. They just never stop coming.
 
There are some that say "stops are for buses":LOL:
Sorry couldn't resist i'll move along now.:whistling
 
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