Ethically okay?

[beany]

post moved from forex to education


Hi everyone - I know this is long but would like lots of comments to decide if this is okay.

outline scenario
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Let's say that I've had some success with trading simple 123 tops and bottoms based on the Elliott wave principle of 5 waves. Wave 1 is the first impulse and wave 2 is the first retracement.

Wave 1 runs from a price level I'll call level 1 to price level I'll call level 2 and wave 2 (the retracement ) runs from the price level 2 to the end of the retracement wihch I will call price level 3. These levels form the simple 123 pattern.

The system is to find these simple 123 patterns at turning points where a currency market is making a top or a bottom, enter the trade when price next breaks the level 2 by a pip or so, and stay in the trade until it has reached a profit of around 3/4 of the move from level 1 to level 2. In more technical terms it would be trading the breakout of an Elliott first wave and riding the third wave until an approximate fibonacci extension of 1.75.

Having had some success with this I think I could teach it in a course and also make some weekly calls to customers. The problem would be that there is no real insentive for customers to stay paying the monthly fee once they have done the course. (other than the calls)

A way around this would be to NOT tell the customer that the exit is a fibonacci extension but instead create a little online program where the customer inputs the level 1 and level 2 prices and then the program gives them the target.

If I said that the calculation in the program was proprietary and could not be divulged then the customers would not know that the calculation was really just a fib extension and maybe would believe it was a more complicated algorithm or something. This way I would be able to charge a recurring fee of say £79 and keep customers using the online calculator.

Whilst morse seasoned traders would be likely spot this it could be marketed to new traders who probably wouldn't. At least not for a few months anyway.

Now I know this is not a scam as it has traded with some success especially with options and equities and I'm sure it is not illegal to make a program and say it's proprietary but.....

my question is....

Would this be considerred in any way morally wrong or unethical ( the propriatary program side of things with the recurring subscription) or totally acceptable business practice?

Like I said I'm sure it would not be illegal but wonder if traders would be irritated if they found out that the program doesn't do anything special and that standard fib tools could do the same thing.

At the end of the day reputation is everything. Could this be bad for reputation?

All comments would be welcomed.

Please note though that this is not a big cost to pay and many other trading courses cost alot more so even if a trader was to take 6 months of the service it would end up being under £500 and they could have made their money back by that time anyway.

I look forward to ethical comments on what most folk feel about this - thanks

 

[beany]

wow this post has been up a day had 30 or so views but not one comment! I thought I would be out and out flamed! Maybe my concerns were unfounded and it is just as good a business practice as any other. Thank you for lack of comment. That in itself speaks loads.
onwards and upwards yey.!

 

[barjon]

No, it's not ethically ok, but no more offensive than most of the many dubious "get rich quick" offerings.

Before you could canvass for clients with a clear conscience you must first be satisfied that your 123 strategy is a successful one over the long term. So how long has this "success" of yours lasted?

You will never get over the fact that you are hoodwinking your clients by not revealing you are just using a fib extension, so that will always be unethical. You'll be in good company with the other shysters around.

Of course, if what you have is really successful then you won't need any clients - you can just trade your way to your fortune.

But then you knew all this didn't you? It didn't need to be spelt out so don't take the absence of comment as approval.

 

[Atilla]

No, it's not ethically ok, but no more offensive than most of the many dubious "get rich quick" offerings.

Before you could canvass for clients with a clear conscience you must first be satisfied that your 123 strategy is a successful one over the long term. So how long has this "success" of yours lasted?

You will never get over the fact that you are hoodwinking your clients by not revealing you are just using a fib extension, so that will always be unethical. You'll be in good company with the other shysters around.

Of course, if what you have is really successful then you won't need any clients - you can just trade your way to your fortune.

But then you knew all this didn't you? It didn't need to be spelt out so don't take the absence of comment as approval.

I read these three bloggs only because I saw your reply and now feel I have lost 5 mins of my life I'll never be able to get back again.

I feel cheated. Swindled even.

I'm in mixed emotions as to whether to hold you or him responsible for my loss. :cheesy:

How do I overcome my dilemma? :whistling

So as to redeem your self dear Jon, what is your perspective on LLOY and potential future divis? I think you mentioned in the past you got rid of your lot. If you can do the honours gathering some qualified informed opinion with your better half I'd be much obliged.

 

[beany]

I read these three bloggs only because I saw your reply and now feel I have lost 5 mins of my life I'll never be able to get back again.

I feel cheated. Swindled even.

I'm in mixed emotions as to whether to hold you or him responsible for my loss. :cheesy:

How do I overcome my dilemma? :whistling

So as to redeem your self dear Jon, what is your perspective on LLOY and potential future divis? I think you mentioned in the past you got rid of your lot. If you can do the honours gathering some qualified informed opinion with your better half I'd be much obliged.

Well thank you barjon for some contribution.

As for you hun you add nothing........ and dont you dare hijack my thread.

:cheesy:

 

[EnlightenedJoe]

Should be fine. You are doing no worst than all the trainers out there. They can't trade, yet they teach. You can't make profit, yet you sell signals. Same thing.

There are plenty of stupid people out there who are not happy until their money is gone. It would be immoral if you don't help them. If you set up your service, I will tell my brother about it. He will buy it no problems. All you have to do is tell him you can double his money. He won't care if he actually doubles his money or lose the lot. Most people are like that.

 

[Pat494]

Surely it's the end result that is important. It really doesn't matter how you get there. A regular profit is not to be sneezed at.

 

[tomorton]

With a successful strategy I can't see why you'd want to give yourself extra work in creating a course, marketing your service and managing a client base.

If your strategy isn't successful at all you're going to crash and burn as soon as you wipe out your own trading account and your clients', at which point they'll be all over the internet damning your reputation.

If your strategy is moderately successful but maybe offers an unpredictable or lumpy revenue stream, I say go ahead and sell the course. But you won't have much success at that because you're not really adding value to what people can find out in 10 minutes on the web for free. So you need an extra element that makes it worth their while to pay for your methodology and take a risk with that when they could use their own for free.

 

[Quantt]

I look forward to ethical comments on what most folk feel about this - thanks

you need to provide proof (verified trades) that the system works, if you cannot do it, it is not only unethical, but criminal...

 

[beany]

you need to provide proof (verified trades) that the system works, if you cannot do it, it is not only unethical, but criminal...

lol No I think you are over the top there Quantt. There is nothing criminal that I can see. This is really whether it's a reputation buster and and not so nice to do:smart:

 

[Quantt]

lol No I think you are over the top there Quantt. There is nothing criminal that I can see. This is really whether it's a reputation buster and and not so nice to do:smart:

if you are knowingly selling a faulty product and laying about the results of a system, it is called a scam and considered a criminal offense in my book, especially if your victims are the old, the poor, the needy, the vulnerable... and I am sure the authorities will be looking into it, usually they are slow (taking the time to collect the evidence, etc), it might take years, but sooner or later they'll come knocking...

 

[beany]

if you are knowingly selling a faulty product and laying about the results of a system

well this is the problem with trading education I guess. who is to say if it's faulty or not? No one HAS to prove anything as long as no false statements are made its not breaking any law. I'm finding more and more that what used to be called "education" is now being relabelled "entertainment" - sad but true.

I appreciate your sentiments though I am very surprised that more readers are not strongly against it. Certainly the hoodwinking is concerning to me.

I should say that I dont subscribe to having to backtest all that data either. Backtesting does not help with psychology - but then again I'm not a "quant" myself.

 

[Quantt]

well this is the problem with trading education I guess. who is to say if it's faulty or not? No one HAS to prove anything as long as no false statements are made its not breaking any law. I'm finding more and more that what used to be called "education" is now being relabelled "entertainment" - sad but true.

I appreciate your sentiments though I am very surprised that more readers are not strongly against it. Certainly the hoodwinking is concerning to me.

I should say that I dont subscribe to having to backtest all that data either. Backtesting does not help with psychology - but then again I'm not a "quant" myself.

I am really glad we are on the same page about the trading education and personally I am yet to see a honest one...

For the back testing I guess we agree to disagree...personally I won't trade a system I have not back tested trough 2 market cycles at least and that is what helps me with the psychology side of trading ... e.g. I don't have second thoughts, etc, because I know the system works... cheers!

 

[tomorton]

you need to provide proof (verified trades) that the system works, if you cannot do it, it is not only unethical, but criminal...

I respect your intention here but ironically I suspect you can't verify your advice here.

A parallel might be if I sell a racing car but have never won a race. It will still go very fast and the right driver might be able to win with it. But its horses for courses: a trading system without verified trading record could be sold - but it should realistically be cheaper than one that's a proven winner.

 

[Quantt]

I respect your intention here but ironically I suspect you can't verify your advice here.

A parallel might be if I sell a racing car but have never won a race. It will still go very fast and the right driver might be able to win with it. But its horses for courses: a trading system without verified trading record could be sold - but it should realistically be cheaper than one that's a proven winner.

Hi I am sorry, but you are missing my point, so let me use your example to illustrate more clearly:

You are selling a racing car and claiming it has 1000 horse power (but in reality it has only 10), so no matter who the driver is, it will always loose...

The problem with all those "cars" being peddled out there is that the people selling them did try to win the race multiple times and realized the horse power needed is not there, so they are looking for the next best thing: the next sucker to unload them...

 

[tomorton]

Hi I am sorry, but you are missing my point, so let me use your example to illustrate more clearly:

You are selling a racing car and claiming it has 1000 horse power (but in reality it has only 10), so no matter who the driver is, it will always loose...

The problem with all those "cars" being peddled out there is that the people selling them did try to win the race multiple times and realized the horse power needed is not there, so they are looking for the next best thing: the next sucker to unload them...

I think you're just slightly biased against people selling stuff to would-be traders. They're a fact of life, they don't do much harm but they don't do much good. They're not criminals: criminals would be a lot better at stealing people's money.

 

[Quantt]

I think you're just slightly biased against people selling stuff to would-be traders. They're a fact of life, they don't do much harm but they don't do much good. They're not criminals: criminals would be a lot better at stealing people's money.

Yes, I am biased and the more I think about it, the more I think the reason I did join this forum is to warn the new traders about it, because I don't agree with you that they don't do harm, I think they do a lot of harm and I am not talking about someone loosing few hundred dollars for a chat room access or a few grand for a bogus indicator or an useless trading course...

Just do a little research about it or read trough this web site https://www.tradingschools.org/ - especially the comments and you'll see countless examples of people loosing all their savings following those bogus indicators and advises.... It just breaks my hart, because the victims are usually the needy elderly folks looking for an alternative to being a Walmart greeter, with a failing health and mounting healthcare bills with no way in hell to make those money back...

As far as I am concern all those scammers are criminals and belong in jail...

 

[Atilla]

I think you're just slightly biased against people selling stuff to would-be traders. They're a fact of life, they don't do much harm but they don't do much good. They're not criminals: criminals would be a lot better at stealing people's money.

I would have compared it more to Grenfell Tower Insulation - not fit for purpose or use?

Certified did they say? Standards need to be maintained and updated. Rules not very clear!

No worries people died but what is important is ethically, they meant well taking care to put some insulation to keep them warm. Intention was good. Perhaps the warm bit worked a little too well.

Much ethical trash imo. Snake oil salesman the same everywhere? :whistling

 

[tomorton]

I've no problem with people buying stuff that's poor value for money. They have the brains to research and assess what's available and after that, its their decision. If they can't figure this out or are too lazy to find a better value deal, they're going to fail as traders anyway so so what? No sympathy from me for the lazy and the stupid.

I've no doubt the courses available contain a lot of mildly interesting information and the core of a system that could be used to trade profitably. The fact that some or many or most people can't make it work profitably doesn't prove its unfit for purpose: its equally plausible that they themselves are actually unfit for the purpose of trading.

 

[Quantt]

I've no problem with people buying stuff that's poor value for money. They have the brains to research and assess what's available and after that, its their decision. If they can't figure this out or are too lazy to find a better value deal, they're going to fail as traders anyway so so what? No sympathy from me for the lazy and the stupid.

I've no doubt the courses available contain a lot of mildly interesting information and the core of a system that could be used to trade profitably. The fact that some or many or most people can't make it work profitably doesn't prove its unfit for purpose: its equally plausible that they themselves are actually unfit for the purpose of trading.

Agree to disagree about the value of trading education (or the lack off in my view), but please do not blame the victims, they are honest people engaging into this in a good faith...