Ethically okay?

mpups

Experienced member
Having had some success with this I think I could teach it in a course and also make some weekly calls to customers. The problem would be that there is no real insentive for customers to stay paying the monthly fee once they have done the course. (other than the calls)

A way around this would be to NOT tell the customer that the exit is a fibonacci extension but instead create a little online program where the customer inputs the level 1 and level 2 prices and then the program gives them the target.

If I said that the calculation in the program was proprietary and could not be divulged then the customers would not know that the calculation was really just a fib extension and maybe would believe it was a more complicated algorithm or something. This way I would be able to charge a recurring fee of say £79 and keep customers using the online calculator.



thanks for the eye-opener on how a BS course/signal service is conceived
 

beany

Junior member
thanks for the eye-opener on how a BS course/signal service is conceived

""Having had some success with this I think I could teach it in a course and also make some weekly calls to customers. "

Your missing the point - the conception of such a course is not in question - how else would it be conceived? "after some success ... and think I could teach" would not make it BS. It's the whole black box "hoodwinkie" thingy that should be scrutinized I would think. The course itself might be quite good or at least no worse than other "material for entertainment". the black box is the point imo.

but at least your voicing another pov :clap: Thanks
 

beany

Junior member
The problem with all those "cars" being peddled out there is that the people selling them did try to win the race multiple times and realized the horse power needed is not there, so they are looking for the next best thing: the next sucker to unload them...

I would tend to agree. Not all are lacking in horsepower but I think most are.

Even if you are a successful trader though that doesnt mean you can teach - so its a double whammy. You need good teacher and successful trader. Maybe only the teacher needs to deliver it though - just a thought
 

beany

Junior member
They're a fact of life, they don't do much harm .

I beg to differ. A bad mentor or a bad course that seems good can be devastating.

I have a friend who had a year and a half of so called mentoring and most things seemed above board - small losses, medium gains, until the market did something the mentor didnt expect...my friend read it well and suggested closing the trade but the mentor didnt want to 'lose face' and persuaded him to stay in. -10K later it was all just a bad day at the office!

I believe the mentor quit teaching but is currently running a hedge fund with middle eastern money! This is true!
 

beany

Junior member
Yes, I am biased and the more I think about it, the more I think the reason I did join this forum is to warn the new traders about it, because I don't agree with you that they don't do harm, I think they do a lot of harm and I am not talking about someone loosing few hundred dollars for a chat room access or a few grand for a bogus indicator or an useless trading course...

Just do a little research about it or read trough this web site https://www.tradingschools.org/ - especially the comments and you'll see countless examples of people loosing all their savings following those bogus indicators and advises.... It just breaks my hart, because the victims are usually the needy elderly folks looking for an alternative to being a Walmart greeter, with a failing health and mounting healthcare bills with no way in hell to make those money back...

As far as I am concern all those scammers are criminals and belong in jail...

sorry quantt I'm reading these all out of sequence and didnt see your post before my comments to tomorton. Yes I absolutely agree!
 
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Brumby

Established member
A basic caveat in all commercial transactions is that "buyers beware". Implicit in that is before you purchase a product or a service offering you need to conduct the necessary due diligence and research before committing. The problem in the forex business is that due to the leveraged nature of product offerings, there is an abundant build up of greed and consequently the scams to exploit this basic human nature. In other words, you ultimately take responsibility for your own failures or success. Trading forex is high risk and the statistics for failure is very high. If you think you are an outlier to the statistics than there is no one to blame except yourself because greed has overcome sound judgement.

Specific to the original question, when you offer a product or a service you will have to make certain disclosures regarding the product or service to ensure a degree of commercial attraction from would be buyers. There are two main themes I think we need to differentiate. Firstly, there are many proprietory attributes of a product that disclosure is subject to the commercial viability question. Non disclosure is not unethical. As a buyer, if the lack of disclosure bothers you then don't buy the product. The other issue is with the product performance. Does it perform as advertised. Unfortunately in trading, past results do not guarantee future success - a point always mentioned but conveniently ignore often by consumers. It is unethical in my view when a product is offered based on false claims or falsified results. The main problem in this industry is that claims are usually unsubstantiated and hence the term "caveat emptor". In the end we all end up with what we deserve.
 

mpups

Experienced member
Your missing the point - the conception of such a course is not in question - how else would it be conceived?

no im not, it could also be conceived by conception
 

Lee Shepherd

Senior member
This is an interesting thread. Here's my input:

My statement on systems and sellers:
System sellers are worthless and simply don't exist to provide satisfactory results.
Reasoning:
If they did the system/robot/algorithm etc would be sold to hedge funds for millions. Not a few thousand pounds. Also, the seller would simply use it themselves.

My statement on mentors:
Can certainly be worth the money and I would recommend this path.
Reasoning:
Mentors don't have to be traders. For example I can talk shop day trading but cannot day trade for sh1t. See these as coaches, someone to bounce off and keep you in line and on target. Other examples of this are top golfers, tennis players, formula one drivers etc. Informing the talent where they went wrong.

Put simply:
You have the talent or don't.
Systems/algos and robots don't exist.
If you feel you may be able to act, paint, carry out plumbing or even become a trader - then go to the relevant school for the right education. Pick the best school and don't go cheap.

Lee
 

beany

Junior member
If you feel you may be able to act, paint, carry out plumbing or even become a trader - then go to the relevant school for the right education. Pick the best school and don't go cheap.

Lee

Arrgh :rolleyes: I just spent an hour+ looking through your other Threads Lee....That's why I hate forums/social media/google I'm just a sucker for distraction!:eek: Great threads tho!

From experience I dont subscribe to this viewpoint. I used to do....then I spent 000's on training from some of the top schools only to find that with trading it didnt work that way.


So....... I paid £10k for Cisco "top gun" training (Networking , routers etc) many years ago. I studied and paid for books and put the work in. I then used what I learned to get a 60K job and held it for 5years. My education was the key and I knew if I learned everything I could about TCP/IP, SNA, Netbios etc I would have a good job with a good income guaranteed. I like many other engineer/doctor/professional types expected that to be the case with trading and therefore went about it in the same way. Total B*ll*cks.

for me and I suspect most, no amount of schooling from others did the trick - and the expensive ones seemed the worst. Yes I learned alot and and could if I chose to, teach alot (nothing to do with this thread) and write books and give talks but none of that makes a trader. - for me anyway.

I liken trading to learning a musical instrument. The theory is great to have, very interesting and very very useful when you know how to play but.....knowing how to play is purely practice...and more practice...and more practice...and never stopping the practice.

This was a difficult lesson to learn for me especially, because I've never really needed to practice anything in my life (a curse if ever there was one).

Do you know what turned my trading around?............a micro account! 10p a pip(fx). Try telling me that 15years ago though with a 50K futures account and no money management skills! -

ahem...and another reason I dont like forums....I waffle! ....see I even hijacked my own thread!

Honestly it was all about the damn black box! :cheesy:
 
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mpups

Experienced member
Aside from the fibonacci shizzle, if you are genuinely tarding a system that you continue to be successful at and this is the one you'll teach people then thats great (in itself) but from what you said im skeptical about you really tarding this system with success yourself. if i am wong then fine, all the better for you.

well done on the Cisco pilot training btw you did well to advance your career
 
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EnlightenedJoe

Experienced member
Honestly it was all about the damn black box!

I thought it was about conning people out of their money using a blackbox that doesn't work ? If it worked, you could just use it to withdraw cash from the market ATM instead of going through the work and hassle of writing a book (or equivalent) about it.

Like in the movies, when the baddie uses the most elaborate ways to accomplish a very simple task, it could be foretold their special technique (aka their blackbox) doesn't work.
 

beany

Junior member
I thought it was about conning people out of their money using a blackbox that doesn't work ?

no. I dont see that written anywhere. The black box does work. It calculates fib extensions. The trading of 123 pattern absolutely works - guaranteed if you get the right one. Some trader will make money from it some wont...but that was not my concern or focus. I was interested in the one undisputable fact.... -

....The black box disguising something pretty simple and readily available for free, as something that was worth a premium monthly subscription so as too keep the customer using the service.

To my interest this seemed (to me) to take a back seat in the discussion to the general essence of the whole system/training - the quality of which has not been described. But I do understand that and it makes sense to me now.

You see for my purpose I wanted to differentiate between the subjective quality of the course/system in general to the very objective fact that the black box was undeniably "snake oil" and only being used as a convincer. This is what SHOUTED out to me but it seems not so loudly to others. ...and now I have greater insight to my overall backstory and reason for posting.

I really appreciate it thank you (all).
 

tomorton

Legendary member
I beg to differ. A bad mentor or a bad course that seems good can be devastating.

I have a friend who had a year and a half of so called mentoring and most things seemed above board - small losses, medium gains, until the market did something the mentor didnt expect...my friend read it well and suggested closing the trade but the mentor didnt want to 'lose face' and persuaded him to stay in. -10K later it was all just a bad day at the office!

I believe the mentor quit teaching but is currently running a hedge fund with middle eastern money! This is true!


I tried to make the context clear in the thread - the would-be traders who buy poor value training / systems / signals and then can't use them to make a profit to win back what they have paid out would not have made a profit anyway. If they can't work their way through this first obstacle course then I say they're either lazy or stupid - too lazy or stupid to succeed as traders anyway. They're certainly not innocent intelligent hard-working would-be winners whose trading careers have been mercilessly ripped apart by greedy criminals in suits.
 

EnlightenedJoe

Experienced member
One objective fact is you are unwilling to put money on the blackbox signals and make money for yourself. This is the clearest sign of it not working.

It's rather easy to prove if it works. Just call out some signals and I will put some money on it. If I make money on it then it works, otherwise it doesn't. But I have to warn you that anything I put money on, it will immediately go against me. So be sure you only call out the best signals. Otherwise you and I are going get laughed at. I am used to it. But not everyone can handle it.
 
 
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