Lord Flashearts Rogue Traders and Watchdog Thread

DT,
Please recognize that I'm making a genuine effort to be helpful and constructive here. I'm not trying to muddy any waters. On the contrary, I'm trying to distill some clarity, to see if a workable solution can be found that's helpful to prospective punters and fair to vendors. Simple as that!
;)

Moving on . . .
I expect that DT's idea of live trades will be a popular one.
- How many trades are required to prove profitability - 20, 50, 100 or more?
- Do they need to be taken in different market conditions to show that the vendor didn't just get lucky going long in a bull market?
- Do any safeguards need to be in place to counter accusations of multiple accounts (long in one, short in the other etc.) or foul play using Photoshop etc.?
Tim.
 
Tim, IMHO you as content manager should work this up into a decent article/check list similar to the other one you've already created...

"What to look for in a vendor" split it down in sales catergories...etc..
 
Not one of us has ever claimed we could trade,are you going to show us how to trade as we obviously need it. I do im, down 60 pips today

unlucky buddy, has been a bit choppy over the last week or so IMHO. Particularly on those darn...ahem..noisy short term TFs..;) We need a nice sov debt crisis to get the markets' bowels moving..splattering in all directions would be nice...:D
 
I think it's worth reminding ourselves of the T2W guidelines and current policy:

1. Vendors - anyone who has a commercial interest in selling/marketing their product or service to T2W members must declare this interest in their personal user profile.

This is there so that members are made aware that a poster has such interest and can therefore judge the vendor's posts with that background in mind. It's that which is important and not whether the vendor is selling anything good or bad.

2. Advertising includes, but is not limited to: posting the URL of your commercial web site; offering for sale (or a free trial of) your product and/or service; posting references to, excerpts from, or details of your product and/or service; submitting a post with minimal content that, even in the absence of explicit references towards your product and/or service, is clearly designed to act as a lure towards it

Advertising is not allowed (as detailed above) but there is an exception -Substantial content that derives from or is connected to a commercial product (e.g extracts from a subscription-only newsletter) may be permitted provided that the content is deemed useful to the community by the moderators and provided that there is absolutely no direct reference to its commercial nature. and the key phrase here is "content is deemed useful to the community"

Applying this exception is often a difficult decision for moderators, but it in no way implies any endorsement of the vendor or the product by T2W.

3. It is often the case that a product or service is discussed by members (who have no commercial interest) and in those case Vendors may answer specific questions that relate to an aspect of their product and/or service, provided that they do not use their response as a means of promoting it.

Once again the fact that such a discussion is taking place in no way implies an endorsement of the vendor or product by T2W. It also seems eminently reasonable that a legitimate question about profitability should be answered by vendors, but I don't think that asking that question is a function of T2W.

jon
 
DT,

It's newbies that need protecting from the scum in the trading world that rips them off.

My experience of attempting to do this for newbies and others on these boards in the past was that they didn't want it and actually took a "shoot the messenger" mentality to me for trying to help them in the first place. I couldn't understand why to start with but then when I looked back at some other experiences I began to understand why which I will come to a bit later in this post.

The view that T2W can somehow assess the credibility of vendors is of limited use in my view and for two reasons.

1) They don't have the resource to do it
2) Even if they did faking of results is so easy that it would be pointless

When you consider that the FSA and ASA with all their resources still cannot stop rogue organisations from conning the public on an ongoing basis then to think that T2W could do better is not credible.

Coming back to this "We must protect newbies" mentality even when they don't want it and why that is the case. To me it is similar to the last government putting in level after level of legislation and red tape in order to protect us from ourselves. All it did was stop us being able to make our own decisions and no one wants that.

Here is a something that happened about 7 years ago and demonstrates why newbies were quite negative to me when I tried to warn them of unscrupulous vendors.

In the UK a new pyramid scheme called "Women Empowering Women" was sweeping the country. I had seen this the year before elsewhere in the UK but now it had reached my home town. A friend of mine called me and told me he had a business proposition which he was so enthusiastic about that I could hardly say anything. Anyway it was this same pyramid scheme and he was going to a meeting with over 100 other keen enthusiasts where he had to pay £3K and then recruit 12 others into the scheme after which he would then get £12K back.

I knew that this had already been running in my home town for 6 months before he called me and that almost everyone had not made any money at all with it. I sat him down and explained in detail that I had worked out that this was at saturation level with everyone currently in it struggling to find 12 people to join their level. Also with the possibility of 100 new people joining that the competition to get others to join would increase even further.

He rebuked me for being so negative about this wonderful opportunity. I thought that maybe I had not been clear enough or that I needed to present more proof. So I gathered even more evidence showing him letters sent to other friends of mine from people currently in the pyramid who were literally begging people to join. He again dismissed this so I made one last attempt and went through the maths of his competition but it made no difference and he started to ridicule me. He went ahead and borrowed £3K and joined the scheme and as I had predicted he lost it with the whole thing collapsing just a few weeks later.

When I saw him he still refused (and does to this day) to believe that it was not a scam and thinks it went wrong for utterly ridiculous reasons.

The reality is he didn't want protecting from this scam because he wanted to be responsible for his own decision even though it cost him dearly and I have seen this happen many times now with many different people. This is the same reason I was getting such a negative response from those I tried to warn about some of the misgivings of vendors on the boards.

I have learned that there is no point in trying to protect newbies or anyone else for that matter and that I was naive in believing that they would welcome my efforts to help them. When someone sees a potential way to make money then they often do not want to hear that it is not possible and the only way they will learn is by hard nosed experience.


Paul
 
Paul puts the matter more clearly than I could have done but my post 209 wanted to say the same thing.

You are asking a forum board to do more than can be expected of it. The board, itself, should be expected to do the best it can, but no more. Those that I have seen complaining here because they have lost money have no-one to blame except themselves. That is the sad, but true, fact of the matter.

One piece of advice that I give T2W is not to advertise anything without declining, in big letters, not small print, any responsibilty for what is advertised. Other than that is up to the members to put their experiences on a thread. It would not be a bad idea to have a special platform for such threads, each of which should be entitled with the name of the advertiser, for easy searching.
 
I understand that the FSA can't police the whole world of scammers.

T2W CAN implement a few fairly painless steps to help newbies. T2W can stop all vendors on the board if they like. T2W can request that any vendor show some evidence of their abilities which is visible to all of the board.

To say that nothing can be done on here because the FSA lets people slip through their hands is utter nonsense.

If T2W supports scammers, that's fine, we'll leave it at that. But the assertion that nothing can be done is ridiculous.
 
Paul puts the matter more clearly than I could have done but my post 209 wanted to say the same thing.

You are asking a forum board to do more than can be expected of it. The board, itself, should be expected to do the best it can, but no more. Those that I have seen complaining here because they have lost money have no-one to blame except themselves. That is the sad, but true, fact of the matter.

One piece of advice that I give T2W is not to advertise anything without declining, in big letters, not small print, any responsibilty for what is advertised. Other than that is up to the members to put their experiences on a thread. It would not be a bad idea to have a special platform for such threads, each of which should be entitled with the name of the advertiser, for easy searching.

Mark my words - T2W WILL implement a system at some point.

This point will come when another forum gets sued/shut down/fined by the FSA for being complicit in a scam. Watch some action get taken then.

In the meantime, I'll be reporting all new vendors on this site to the FSA.
 
I understand that the FSA can't police the whole world of scammers.

T2W CAN implement a few fairly painless steps to help newbies. T2W can stop all vendors on the board if they like. T2W can request that any vendor show some evidence of their abilities which is visible to all of the board.

To say that nothing can be done on here because the FSA lets people slip through their hands is utter nonsense.

If T2W supports scammers, that's fine, we'll leave it at that. But the assertion that nothing can be done is ridiculous.

Blimey, even from you that's a bit rich, toastie :)

Firstly, no-one has said that nothing can be done. Even if they had it's a somewhat long hop,skip and a jump to conclude that that means T2W supports scammers.

jon
 
well - the last bit was intending to get a rise...

but there is stuff you can do.

How about the tag "Unproven Vendor" under the name of a newly badged vendor that hasn't gone to the trouble of coming up with the goods.

Also - the tag "board guru turned vendor" is another class of vendor...

How about "proven fraud" too ?

It just takes a little imagination.
 
Mark my words - T2W WILL implement a system at some point.

This point will come when another forum gets sued/shut down/fined by the FSA for being complicit in a scam. Watch some action get taken then.

In the meantime, I'll be reporting all new vendors on this site to the FSA.

You may, well, be right in what you say, but this will be another nail in the coffin of the ability of members to make their own minds up on certain issues.

Do you understand the mentality of anyone who picks up the phone, listens to someone introduce himself as a broker who has a good share to recommend to a person like the listener, who has been recommended to said broker as a discerning investor by some third party and, not only does he not hang up but, actually parts with thousands, just like that?! I, and all of us these days, get these calls, even on Sundays. My connection lasts five seconds. My email, even with security, gets scams. The first thing that I do is delete the lot but there are some folk who read them all!

Do you, really, believe that these people can be helped? If you do not believe that they exist read the Boiler Room or Scam threads on this site.
 
To say that nothing can be done on here because the FSA lets people slip through their hands is utter nonsense.

I didn't say nothing could be done, I said that it would be pointless and more importantly (which you have completely omitted) my experiences have proven to me that newbies don't want it so what is the point ?


Paul
 
Points taken,but theres a big difference when you start charging for the imformation.
You may have a point about the thread though. I guess no one is going to be easily accepted unless they prove themselves with live trades. anything else and people will always be able to question performance and track record. Having said that how many mentors do we really know of on the site have ever proved themselves in that way other than perhaps Alan Rich.

I was mentored by someone I met on this forum. I never saw him "make a call" or "give a signal" once. I also started in a live trading room where people paid and ideas were shared. Even if you get "signals" at the end of the day the only person responsible for your trades and your profitability is you.
Anyone willing to do the hard work instead of trying to buy a system can do it, but it isn't easy (or it wasn't for me). There aren't any short cuts, you have to learn for yourself.
Thanks to that person, I am now a full time trader and I make my living from it.
 
All this stuff about demanding trading records is nonsense. All that is required is some simple advice to all newbies.
Don't buy any trading system or robot, or join any trading programme or live room that doesn't offer a free trial first (in fairness both 4XTL and schooloftrade that I mentioned previously do that as do Trader_Dante and PozzyP).
Don't send your money or put money in the account of someone that isn't a professional, registered money manager that you can call and speak to, and has a real verified address and publishes verified returns. Even then be aware that past performance is no guarantee of future returns.
Simple
 
Last edited:
The FSA angle DT brings up is relevant IMHO and I'd agree that if you offer up trading advice you're effectively offering up investment advice and as such will have to be (should be) licensed as *fit and proper* to do so.
 
oh for gods sake it's an anonymous internet forum. The fool that makes financial decision based on what they trawl from strangers on t'internet is lucky to have any money to lose in the first place imho.

Lets stop this nanny state horsecr@p. People need to start taking personal responsibility for their decisions again rather than just assume someone else is gonna chew their food for them all the time like a ikkle baby bird..........
 
Paul puts the matter more clearly than I could have done but my post 209 wanted to say the same thing.

You are asking a forum board to do more than can be expected of it. The board, itself, should be expected to do the best it can, but no more. Those that I have seen complaining here because they have lost money have no-one to blame except themselves. That is the sad, but true, fact of the matter.

One piece of advice that I give T2W is not to advertise anything without declining, in big letters, not small print, any responsibilty for what is advertised. Other than that is up to the members to put their experiences on a thread. It would not be a bad idea to have a special platform for such threads, each of which should be entitled with the name of the advertiser, for easy searching.

Behaving as a simple suite of forums I agree, however, if T2W is deriving commercial revenue from hosting (and de-facto recommending) trading rooms then no, that's not OK. Let's not forget that if T2W charge for a room, then they're indirectly charging the T2W member also. That being the case they have an absolute responsibility; legally, morally and ethically to vouch for the service..
 
I would of thought trade2win have a "duty of care" to see that any of it's commercial associates are compliant on some very basic level .

Omission or not checking, I would of thought is up there with willful blindness. I mean if their actions or in-actions leave any member open to harm or loss in some capacity, there might be a grounds for a commercial claim.

I assume T2W legal advisor would of given some advice to them in this capacity.

So a legal determination might be worth checking, if it already hasn't been done yet. Especially if complaints to the board are visible about certain commercial vendors perhaps?


just thoughts that pop up.....
 
There is a difference between somebody who's stupid and somebody who's inexperienced. It seems such nuance is lost here.

We are not discussing making major financial decisions here - we are talking about regular people coming to sites like this and paying for poor advice from people that can't trade and are badged as vendors here.

No-one is coming here expecting someone to 'chew their food' for them. We clearly have people on this site that have failed at trading and are looking to make an income from the members here.

When you enter a new domain, you don't deserve to be ripped off. Plenty of people come to the place I live and become the victim of all kind of scams. I was always under the impression that it was the scammer in the wrong. I shall stand corrected now I know it's the person being scammed that is at fault....
 
hmm what is the legal position, perhaps knowingly promoting a service known to be , unlawful ? or whatever term is used, would be the benchmark of minimum standards.

But I'm just blagging that from a common sense approach. legally speaking there will be an exact definition out there. Any lawyers in the house ? :)
 
Top