Ukraine invasion

[Atilla]

With these valuable objectives achieved, Russia has already won the war. Its time Ukraine is told the truth.

It is not in the interest of the US/UK to tell Ukraine the truth and never has been.

They have been told they are can and will win this war. Same message has been trumpeted by our fiends here all the time. Sucking up MSM.

Whilst US n UK can't find money even basics like money for free school meals for about 2.5m families on income support, they are very quick to provide literally billions to fight useless wars that do not threaten any of our lives.

In fact as Bush said these fookers are going out of there way to coming up with policies to destroy and disrupt our way of life.

Inflation and shortage of food and refugees and potential nuclear war.

Who's making this sh!t up?

 

[timsk]

I agree. I never believed that Russia's objective was to conquer the entirety of Ukraine, just to carve off the east and the south as a buffer puppet states to protect Russia and the Crimea, weakening the remainder through attrition and causing NATO to divide politically.

With these valuable objectives achieved, Russia has already won the war. Its time Ukraine is told the truth.

Yes indeed, Tom.
Interestingly, in the video that CV posted in #1,314 above, the interviewee alleged that Russia's army is in such dire straights due to lack of training, equipment, poor morale and corruption etc., that it doesn't pose an existential threat even to Ukraine - let alone the rest of Europe! Herein lies the complete disconnect in the utterly flawed logic of those who maintain that Putin must be comprehensively defeated and driven out of Ukraine, otherwise he will go on to invade any number of other European countries. Self evidently, these contradictory claims can't both be true. So which is it? Is Putin's army a state-of-the-art fighting force well capable of expanding Russia's territorial borders westwards, or is it a rag tag bunch of impotent conscripts barely capable of tying their own bootlaces?

Another point the chap in the interview made (towards the end) was that the 'shock and awe' attack on Kiev was largely a tactic to tie up Zelensky's forces protecting the capital, in order to free up Russian forces to sweep in and take control of the east and south - which they did. I don't doubt there are issues among Russian forces, but they're still managing to achieve their stated objective. As you rightly say Tom, someone needs to spell it out to Zelensky: negotiate with Putin sooner rather than later. I can't stand Macron but, fair play to him, he's the western leader in pole position to broker an end to the war. He has the motivation too, as he desperately needs a big win to restore his own domestic political fortunes.
Tim.

 

[counter_violent]

Why?

We live in a free world 🌎 don't we?

No we don't live in a free world as you know.

France can't play both sides. Over 100mill sent in weapons + emergency aid. Yet Macron calls for an off ramp for Putin, whilst Draghi calls for "serious discussions" between Europe and Russia.

 

[tomorton]

It is not in the interest of the US/UK to tell Ukraine the truth and never has been.

They have been told they are can and will win this war. Same message has been trumpeted by our fiends here all the time. Sucking up MSM.

Whilst US n UK can't find money even basics like money for free school meals for about 2.5m families on income support, they are very quick to provide literally billions to fight useless wars that do not threaten any of our lives.

In fact as Bush said these fookers are going out of there way to coming up with policies to destroy and disrupt our way of life.

Inflation and shortage of food and refugees and potential nuclear war.

Who's making this sh!t up?

An end to the Ukraine war would go a long way to helping resolve economic issues in the west. Our economic interests are more important to us than the domestic popularity of any Ukrainian war-leader. He may well have taken an oath to liberate the Donbas and the Crimea etc. etc. and he may have promised this tot he Ukrainian people - but we're not bound by his promises.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

rance can't play both sides. Over 100mill sent in weapons + emergency aid. Yet Macron calls for an off ramp for Putin, whilst Draghi calls for "serious discussions" between Europe and Russia.

IMO everyone now knows that talks are useless, like the ones of 2 months ago.
It is just stuff for internal audience.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

TBH I dont' think Putin is a threat for Poland or other EU countries.

Herein lies the complete disconnect in the utterly flawed logic of those who maintain that Putin must be comprehensively defeated and driven out of Ukraine, otherwise he will go on to invade any number of other European countries. Self evidently, these contradictory claims can't both be true.

As you can see I dont' think Putin is a serious threat for EU.
To say it better, he is a threat but he is not in condition to win, he is still in condition to do significant damage.
Having said that I still think he deserves a total defeat in Ukraine, otherwise he will come back for another 10% of Ukraine or Georgia or Moldova.
BTW I too was impressed by that bulgarian analyst, I am starting to think that ALL the available firepower of Russian army is now in Ukraine.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

Having said that I still think he deserve a total defeat in Ukraine, otherwise he will come back for another 10% of Ukraine or Georgia or Moldova.

That is what the Western MSM is trying to suggest. No evidence exists for that.

The real question is:
Who is to support to win? (Ukrainian) fascism or Russia?

Which winner will cause more damage to the European countries and the others in the world?

We have a far right government in Hungary and in Poland (IMO the worst), and maybe in other countries also.
Ukrainian Nazis are supported by white American supremacists hiding behind American Christian theories about their supremacy.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

That is what the Western MSM is trying to suggest. No evidence exists for that.

It has already happened, the world underestimated what happened in Georgia in 2008 and in Crimea in 2014, and now here we are.
When Putin doesn't like what a former soviet country does, he invades it.
20 years of realpolitk and tolerance.

The real question is:
Who is to support to win? (Ukrainian) fascism or Russia?

Ukraine corrupt democracy is a better choice than Putin fascism and kleptocracy.

Which winner will cause more damage to the European countries and the others in the world

Let Putin "liberate" neighboring coutries and soon China will start "liberate" his neighbors.
Or maybe Erdogan will liberate some greek islands or part of Syria.

We have a far right government in Hungary and in Poland (IMO the worst), and maybe in other countries also.
Ukrainian Nazis are supported by white American supremacists hiding behind American Christian theories about their supremacy.

I dont' like far right parties but they call it democracy.

 

[counter_violent]

As you can see I dont' think Putin is a serious threat for EU.
To say it better, he is a threat but he is not in condition to win, he is still in condition to do significant damage.
Having said that I still think he deserves a total defeat in Ukraine, otherwise he will come back for another 10% of Ukraine or Georgia or Moldova.
BTW I too was impressed by that bulgarian analyst, I am starting to think that ALL the available firepower of Russian army is now in Ukraine.

Yeah, which is why they will lose.

Like I said right from the start, the West has decided that Putin WILL be stopped and so it will be, no matter how long it takes. No matter what course it takes. Don't underestimate how badly Putin has fkt up here. Talk about own goal, he has played right into the hands of the collective West by destroying both his economy and his military on some frivolous pet project in Ukraine that will go absolutely nowhere.

Who's the clown? I thought it was supposed to be zelensky !

 

[timsk]

. . . he has played right into the hands of the collective West by destroying both his economy and his military on some frivolous pet project in Ukraine that will go absolutely nowhere.

Ukraine corrupt democracy is a better choice than Putin fascism and kleptocracy.

C_Vs,
Please answer these two questions:
1. How many (more) Ukrainian soldiers have to die before you call it a day and say enough is enough - this has to stop?
2. How much (more) territory must Zelensky and Ukraine lose before you call it a day and say enough is enough - this has to stop?

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

in Georgia in 2008

after earlier American intervention

Georgia–United States relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Crimea in 2014

Crimea wa threatened by Proshenko to depopulation before Russia went in. Ukraine also had signed in 2010 a contract lasting until 2042 to host the Russian fleet.

Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Putin fascism and kleptocracy.

MSM suggestion.

Hungary has gone to martial laws, in Germany the letter 'Z' is abandonned as a symbol etc. .. and I watch critical what's happening in Russia, also there appeared some BS decrets since the war started.

The U.S. tried to use the end of the USSR only to their own favour without asking the people living there. The 'elections' of the government are dubious as there were no relations to other countries and no concepts in the parties. That continued in Ukraine until the last election in 2019 to take the comedian as frontman.

For decades they told us that the ECB interest rate is related to the inflation rate.
The official inflation rate in Germany is multiplied to about 8%, higher than in Italy and other countries.
The ECB continues taking negative interest rate for deposits and didn't react until now to make people poorer until the economy is broken down - that will do the rest.
MSM is selling the sh!t to the masses

ECB likely to get out of negative rates by end-September, Lagarde says

The European Central Bank is likely to raise its deposit rate out of negative territory by the end of September and could lift it further if it sees inflation stabilizing at 2%, ECB President Christine Lagarde said on Monday.

www.cnbc.com

 

[CavaliereVerde]

1. How many (more) Ukrainian soldiers have to die before you call it a day and say enough is enough - this has to stop?

How many russian soldiers have to die before Putin undestands he cannot win and withdraws?

2. How much (more) territory must Zelensky and Ukraine lose before you call it a day and say enough is enough - this has to stop?

Some minor villages taken in Donbas.
Russian army is not able to do more than this, no matter how many times Putin changes his generals.
Ukranian counteroffensive has already started near Kherson, that has much more strategic value than Donbas.

 

[timsk]

How many russian soldiers have to die before Putin undestands he cannot win and withdraws?

CV,
I'll answer that when you answer my question first. How many - as in what number - of Ukrainian soldiers have to die before you throw in the towel and say enough is enough. I'll help you out and provide three possible answers, so all you need do is reply A, B or C.
A. 10,000
B. 100,000
C. When Zelensky conscripts civilians of fighting age into the armed forces.

Some minor villages taken in Donbas.
Russian army is not able to do more than this, no matter how many times Putin changes his generals.
Ukranian counteroffensive has already started near Kherson, that has much more strategic value than Donbas.

This does not answer my question. So, I ask again, how much territory must Ukraine lose for you to throw in the towel and say enough is enough? Again, I'll help you by providing three choices.
A. Ukraine becomes landlocked and cut off from the Black Sea.
B. When specific cities/towns are under Russian control. If so, which ones?
C. When the maps (including those from pro-Ukrainian sources) show Russia controls 50% or more of the country.

So CV, just pick A, B or C from the two questions - you can do that, can't you?
Tim.

 

[counter_violent]

C_Vs,
Please answer these two questions:
1. How many (more) Ukrainian soldiers have to die before you call it a day and say enough is enough - this has to stop?
2. How much (more) territory must Zelensky and Ukraine lose before you call it a day and say enough is enough - this has to stop?

WE, are not fighting in Ukraine, so it is not a question for us. Ukrainians will decide when they have had enough. I suspect their answer will be the same as it's always been. Fk Putin, fk Russia.

Now a question for you.

Why do you think Putin is entitled to operate as some gangsta mofo in someone else's country?

 

[CavaliereVerde]

CV,
I'll answer that when you answer my question first. How many - as in what number - of Ukrainian soldiers have to die before you throw in the towel and say enough is enough. I'll help you out and provide three possible answers, so all you need do is reply A, B or C.
A. 10,000
B. 100,000
C. When Zelensky conscripts civilians of fighting age into the armed forces.

I assume 10.000 soldiers already died (100 per day).
I would say A but I don't think there will be another 10k ukranian casualties, russians are dying at 2x speed and now everything is slowing down.

 

[IlIlIlIlI]

Some minor villages taken in Donbas.

Mariupol is a minor village, already forgotten all the MSM news about it?
Last one from TASS:

Russia completed all military tasks at Azovstal with minimal losses — Lavrov

According to Lavrov, the Nazis who surrendered "are now giving evidence"

tass.com

Ukrainians will decide when they have had enough

Ukranians are not asked, I assume, not even Zelensky is asked.
Not before the U.S. can finish their weapon tests under real conditions with 4 (four !!) drones and other useless equipment.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

This does not answer my question. So, I ask again, how much territory must Ukraine lose for you to throw in the towel and say enough is enough? Again, I'll help you by providing three choices.
A. Ukraine becomes landlocked and cut off from the Black Sea.
B. When specific cities/towns are under Russian control. If so, which ones?
C. When the maps (including those from pro-Ukrainian sources) show Russia controls 50% or more of the country.

So CV, just pick A, B or C from the two questions - you can do that, can't you?

I have already stated my condition to define loss for Ukraine, the fall of Kharkiv and Odessa.
BTW if now 20% of the territory is under russian control I don't think it will ever go beyond 25%.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Mariupol is a minor village, already forgotten all the MSM news about it?

The question was about FURTHER advances of russians in Donbas.

 

[timsk]

Why do you think Putin is entitled to operate as some gangsta mofo in someone else's country?

I don't think that c_v, never have - as you know full well if you've read my post. Now, please answer my questions!

 

[counter_violent]

I don't think that c_v, never have - as you know full well if you've read my post. Now, please answer my questions!

I did answer the questions.

It doesn't matter what I think, it's not germane.

The only thing that matters is what Ukrainians think.