Ukraine invasion

timsk

Legendary member
No, you want the war to stop by appeasing Putin. Not One consideration for what the Ukrainians want under Zelensky, their freely elected leader.
c_v,
So wrong. Find a post of mine that does that. Actually, don't waste your time looking as you won't find one.
How many times do I have to spell it out. Putin the self appointed dictator has to be stopped. It matters not what means are employed. Everyone is at risk for as long as he's in power.
Why? What benefit is it to us and the west in general? I'm not at risk from Putin and nor are you, unless that is the west continues to prod him with a big stick and then, surprise, surprise, he eventually snaps back at us. If anyone in the west wanted to stop Putin they could have done that long before the first gun was fired. How many times do I have to spell it out: this isn't about Putin and Ukraine, it's about the west and our self serving and corrupt so-called leaders.
Putin is part of the military industrial complex. He has some resources and plays the game as well as anyone else who controls them.
Agreed - but so what?
There are 2 reasons why your fence panels and steel mesh prices are so high.
1) Biden (total clown) has somehow managed to take the US back from being energy independent under the last administration, by pandering to the lefties, climate activists etc.
2) Putin playing power politics with energy.
Energy cost is the number one reason why we have rampant inflation.
Oh, okay. Thanks for enlightening me. I guess the bloke at the steel works I spoke to was spreading misinformation when he told me that the reason for the high prices is because two of the components in steel come from Russia and Ukraine respectively. Likewise, my timber merchant told me that all timber over 5.4 metres comes from Russia, along with all birch ply. I guess he was wrong too.
Of course Ukraine wins this war. How do you imagine Putin can control Ukraine when the Ukrainians reject absolutely, any interference from Russia. Then there's the small matter of the West fully supporting the Ukrainian cause.
This has been covered in depth on this thread. In a nutshell - it's none of our blody busiiness! Of course I (and I imagine everyone on my side of this debate) has massive sympathy with ordinary Ukrainians. Of course I want to help them and the best way to do that is to call a ceasefire and go to the negotiating table. As for Ukraine winning - you have to address the points I and others have raised numerous times if you want to convince anyone other than yourself and CV that there's a snowball's chance in hell chance of that happenning. There's none. I'll go further: Ukraine has already lost, they're dragging it out simply because Zelensky finds himself between a rock and a hard place. His only hope - literally ONLY hope - is that Nato forces become actively involved. That's what he's praying for and is his only way out of the hole he's in. But, as I keep saying, that risks turning the conflict into a nuclear one which CV is prepared for - for reasons which I think are completely mad. Seriously bonkers. What about you - are you prepared for nukes to rain down on Manchester? Is getting rid of Putin that important and, if so, how will you and your family and friends benefit by his departure and how can you be sure that who - or what - replaces him won't be worse?
Putin is fkt. Every realist knows this. We don't need any analysts to tell us what the outcome will be.
Oh dear c_v, you appear to be in some Walter Mitty fantasy land that bears no resemblance to what's going on in the real world. I can't believe it - you of all people!
Russia is not dominating the skies. If they were, this invasion would not have lasted 3 months already.
As At' and others have pointed out, the conflict is long and protracted because Russian forces are making some attempt to limit the loss of civilian life. Note how MSM don't do daily death count of civilians; there's good reason for that. Putin has a vested interest in doing this for the very reason you highlighted in your post, i.e. when (not if) he wins this war, he's going to have to rebuild the country's infrastructure, along with his reputation among ordinary Ukrainians - many more of which are sympathetic towards Russia than you think. But you wouldn't know that because you're suddenly a fan of the BBC and MSM, having berated them for years. Too weird!
Tim.
 

CavaliereVerde

Experienced member
I'll go further: Ukraine has already lost, they're dragging it out simply because Zelensky finds himself between a rock and a hard place. His only hope - literally ONLY hope - is that Nato forces become actively involved.
It is you pure opinion that Ukraine is losing.
Ukraine at the moment is not asking for manpower, only for equipment, they dont' need a NATO intervention.
 

CavaliereVerde

Experienced member
As At' and others have pointed out, the conflict is long and protracted because Russian forces are making some attempt to limit the loss of civilian life.
The conflict is protracted because of their incompetence.
95% of destruction in Mariupol has nothing to do with limiting civilian losses.
But it comes with no surprise, Grozny and Aleppo style.
 

counter_violent

Legendary member
c_v,
So wrong. Find a post of mine that does that. Actually, don't waste your time looking as you won't find one.

Why? What benefit is it to us and the west in general? I'm not at risk from Putin and nor are you, unless that is the west continues to prod him with a big stick and then, surprise, surprise, he eventually snaps back at us. If anyone in the west wanted to stop Putin they could have done that long before the first gun was fired. How many times do I have to spell it out: this isn't about Putin and Ukraine, it's about the west and our self serving and corrupt so-called leaders.

Agreed - but so what?

Oh, okay. Thanks for enlightening me. I guess the bloke at the steel works I spoke to was spreading misinformation when he told me that the reason for the high prices is because two of the components in steel come from Russia and Ukraine respectively. Likewise, my timber merchant told me that all timber over 5.4 metres comes from Russia, along with all birch ply. I guess he was wrong too.

This has been covered in depth on this thread. In a nutshell - it's none of our blody busiiness! Of course I (and I imagine everyone on my side of this debate) has massive sympathy with ordinary Ukrainians. Of course I want to help them and the best way to do that is to call a ceasefire and go to the negotiating table. As for Ukraine winning - you have to address the points I and others have raised numerous times if you want to convince anyone other than yourself and CV that there's a snowball's chance in hell chance of that happenning. There's none. I'll go further: Ukraine has already lost, they're dragging it out simply because Zelensky finds himself between a rock and a hard place. His only hope - literally ONLY hope - is that Nato forces become actively involved. That's what he's praying for and is his only way out of the hole he's in. But, as I keep saying, that risks turning the conflict into a nuclear one which CV is prepared for - for reasons which I think are completely mad. Seriously bonkers. What about you - are you prepared for nukes to rain down on Manchester? Is getting rid of Putin that important and, if so, how will you and your family and friends benefit by his departure and how can you be sure that who - or what - replaces him won't be worse?

Oh dear c_v, you appear to be in some Walter Mitty fantasy land that bears no resemblance to what's going on in the real world. I can't believe it - you of all people!

As At' and others have pointed out, the conflict is long and protracted because Russian forces are making some attempt to limit the loss of civilian life. Note how MSM don't do daily death count of civilians; there's good reason for that. Putin has a vested interest in doing this for the very reason you highlighted in your post, i.e. when (not if) he wins this war, he's going to have to rebuild the country's infrastructure, along with his reputation among ordinary Ukrainians - many more of which are sympathetic towards Russia than you think. But you wouldn't know that because you're suddenly a fan of the BBC and MSM, having berated them for years. Too weird!
Tim.

This needs framing.

It's a 10 on the wrong of thinking scale. I always thought Att would take some beating, but hey, what do I know.

So lets see what unfolds as the situation moves forward.
 

counter_violent

Legendary member
That's fine c_v - your opinion is as valid as mine.
The difference between us is that I'm happy to answer your points head on, comprehensively. Wheras, you on the other hand completely ignore mine. That tells the casual observer all they need to know.
;-)
Tim.

But you are not answering my points Tim.

What you are doing is projecting a nonsensical wish list on how everyone should behave and deal with the situation.

The reality is, the West has decided it's course of action based on the resolve of Ukraine in dealing with an unprovoked invasion by an aggressor country run by an authoritarian dictator.

Once you accept these basic facts, you might just come to your senses.
 

Rufus_Leakey

Well-known member
Russian forces are making some attempt to limit the loss of civilian life.
If they really wanted to limit civilian deaths, they might have avoided shooting these two. But that would have made it harder to have the after-party of drinking and looting.:oops:
russians_killin_civlians_kyiv.gif
 

timsk

Legendary member
But you are not answering my points Tim.
That's an unfair and untrue accusation c_v. If there's anything I've not addressed, it's genuine oversight on my part for which I apologise. Feel free to make any point or ask any question you want and I'll happily answer it. (That offer goes to anyone and everyone - not just c_v.)
What you are doing is projecting a nonsensical wish list on how everyone should behave and deal with the situation.
Pot, kettle black!
The reality is, the West has decided it's course of action based on the resolve of Ukraine in dealing with an unprovoked invasion by an aggressor country run by an authoritarian dictator.
The resolve of Ukraine is determined by tens of billions of dollars being pumped into it, along with mountains of (mostly) redundant kit the west no longer has use for. Ukrainian men of fighting age have no choice but to fight: it's either that or being shot by their own forces. That's the reality. As for the attack being unprovoked, I suggest you go back and look at the background to the conflict. Here's a little refresher for you: Mentioning NATO does not make you a "Putin apologist"
Once you accept these basic facts, you might just come to your senses.
My senses are just fine, thank you. As for facts, you appear to be quite happy to disregard them altogether! By way of example, how are you getting on in finding one - just one - military strategist who says Ukraine can win this war without having control of the air space? That's absolutely essential if Putin is to be repelled. And that's not me saying that, Zelensky himself has been saying it for many weeks and begging everyone he speaks to enforce a no fly zone. That's the basic fact you need to wrap your head around and, when you do, perhaps you'll be the one who comes to his senses.
;)
Tim.
 

CavaliereVerde

Experienced member
My senses are just fine, thank you. As for facts, you appear to be quite happy to disregard them altogether! By way of example, how are you getting on in finding one - just one - military strategist who says Ukraine can win this war without having control of the air space? That's absolutely essential if Putin is to be repelled. And that's not me saying that, Zelensky himself has been saying it for many weeks and begging everyone he speaks to enforce a no fly zone. That's the basic fact you need to wrap your head around and, when you do, perhaps you'll be the one who comes to his senses.
;)
I think you are not so updated about FACTS.
Zelensky was asking a NFZ in the first part of the war, when Kiev was under siege.
At the end of March Russia lost the battle for Kiev and withdraw from the north of Ukraine.
Then we have the sinking of the Moskva warship.
It is at least one month that Zelensky is not asking for a NFZ anymore, only heavy weapons to push back russians in the east and in the south.
 
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Atilla

Legendary member
That's fine c_v - your opinion is as valid as mine.
The difference between us is that I'm happy to answer your points head on, comprehensively. Wheras, you on the other hand completely ignore mine. That tells the casual observer all they need to know.
;-)
Tim.
You are right and I've noticed the same thing Tim. Same goes for I-Cats Paw-I.

We answer their questions and assertions.

They seldom respond to anything we put up but quote some other alternative reality to their false beliefs. By repeating the rubbish they think it'll stick.

I've lost count how many times they've repeated yeah but no but Russia invaded. Whilst repeating this is not about NATO.

THIS IS PURELY ABOUT NATO EXPANSION AND US MEDDLING IN UKRAINE. Russian's said this is their red line.

Blah blah blah Nope that's just a ploy for Russians' expansion. Russia is lying. West is speaking the truth.

FFS you can't discuss anything with nutters like this. NO WONDER RUSSIA HAS SENT IN THE INTERVENTION FORCE. Talking and negotiations not going anywhere.

EU countries already cracking up with differences of opinion.
 

CavaliereVerde

Experienced member
THIS IS PURELY ABOUT NATO EXPANSION AND US MEDDLING IN UKRAINE. Russian's said this is their red line.

Blah blah blah Nope that's just a ploy for Russians' expansion. Russia is lying. West is speaking the truth.
Ok but Russia has no say on other countries joining NATO, Ukraine is not Russia.
Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine are not Russia and do not want to deal with Russia anymore, especially wth Putin's Russia.
 

counter_violent

Legendary member
Ok but Russia has no say on other countries joining NATO, Ukraine is not Russia.
Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine are not Russia and do not want to deal with Russia anymore, especially wth Putin's Russia.

Once countries have escaped the clutches of Russia, the evidence is clear that they prefer to deal with and adopt Western culture. The last thing they want is anything to do with a dictatorial state like Russia.

Tim and At can't even get their heads around the basics of this situation and they point blank refuse to engage with eg, post 1005, 1013, the vid posted where Russian troops shot dead the security guard and his manager.
 

CavaliereVerde

Experienced member
the vid posted where Russian troops shot dead the security guard and his manager.
Every army has criminals, what really matters is bombing cities because that can't be due to single criminals but is something planned, generals ordering to bomb towns because they are not able to defeat the enemy soldiers.
Their strategy is to terrorize civilians and after this there will not be any pro russian sentiment in Ukraine.

At the beginnig everyone was thinking that Russia was holding back but now evey strategist agree that there is just nothing beyond this, russian army is unable to take Ukraine.
Ukraine has not air superiority but neither Russia has full control of the sky.
Ukraine is winning and pushing back but it will be a very slow victory, they don't have cannon fodder and equipment to waste.
 

CavaliereVerde

Experienced member
Ukrainian men of fighting age have no choice but to fight: it's either that or being shot by their own forces. That's the reality.
Young males can't leave the contry but nobody has been forced to fight.
Territorial defense is made by voluteers and their ranks are full.
They accept only experienced fighters, no more militia.
It is Russia that sent conscripts to the battle while Putin was ignoring it.
 
 
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