Ukraine invasion

[Atilla]

Hi c_v,
Okay, allow me to clarify. . .
Both sides have nuclear weapons and, as I understand it, the general idea is that each is meant to deter the other from ever using them. That said, the U.S. set that precedent in Hiroshima and Nagasaki at the end of World War II, so there's a strong argument to be made that they - not Putin and Russia - would be the first to use them in this conflict. Madness, as you must surely know by now, is endemic among all politicians of every hue and culture, be they left or right and from the east or west. Ergo, I don't believe Putin is any more or less bonkers than BoJo, Biden or anyone else one might care to mention.

The bottom line is this: is your hatred of a leader of another country that bears almost zero threat to our national security so great that you'd be prepared to go to war (which could mean a nuclear war) just to get rid of him? If the answer is yes, please tell us why? Why does it matter to you sooooo much that Putin isn't allowed to remain president of Russia, and what makes you believe whoever replaces him will be any better and will suddenly start kowtowing to the west? Can you provide a single shred of evidence that getting rid of Putin will result any net benefit to us in the west?

As an aside, I went to a local steel supplier yesterday for a price on some steel mesh for the concrete base of the extension I'm building. Guess how long the price they gave me was valid for? Just until the end of the day, that's all! Today it will be higher and higher again on Monday - and so on. All because of this conflict and sanctions against Russia. If getting shot of Putin helps to bring down the price of steel mesh (and timber) - then I'll support you in wanting rid of him - but that's the only vested interest I have in wanting shot of him. But it's hardly worth going to war over!!! In all other respects, it's none of my business who the leader of Russia is: that's entirely a matter for Russian people to decide - not you or me.
Tim.

Excellent post Tim and agree with you 100%. Well considered and thought out with follow through.

I always think if my adversary has a bad system of production, economy or leader, why would I want to change it?

What's it to me. Better they remain in an outmoded and inefficient system of production and democratic selective process.

The reason is of course as seen in Latin America and Africa, corrupt politicians are easier to manipulate, control or even remove by other means. The destabilisation efforts of advanced countries with long intelligence arms can reach all the way to corrupt politicians' scrotums (much like Zelensky) and have them over a barrel.

For example, what options does Zelensky have? I'd be interested to know which country will take him once his useless purpose in Ukraine is settled. Will he be driving around in a tank pelted by civilians hurling flowers at him waving flags or throwing rotten tomatoes and eggs at a comedian who took them on a very foolish and destructive war against old relatives and brothers in arms over course of history?

Sometimes I even wonder if he is a double-spy working to enhance Russia's agenda to take over and divide the productive part of Ukraine once and for all. His actions make no sense to me none what so ever.

This might be a similar strategy to that employed by the US with Al-Qaida and 9/11. Who knows? Just simply that not much of what is happening makes sense.

Then as you rightly point out we have armchair chappies like our two CVs gun-ho cheering the war as justified supporting Ukraine's application to join NATO, dismissing WMD and the integration of the Nazi battalion into NATO and CIA. Crazy old men passed their sell-by date. Consume with caution

Personally, I wouldn't trust Trump with the nuke button. I do believe in Putin being of sane mind and justified however to defend Russia. The attackers and invaders are the West here not Russia.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

For example, what options does Zelensky have? I'd be interested to know which country will take him once his useless purpose in Ukraine is settled.

The attackers and invaders are the West here not Russia.

It seems to be pointless to discuss here.

And Trump 9/11 or Iraq have nothing to do with Ukraine invasion.

 

[Atilla]

It seems to be pointless to discuss here.

And Trump 9/11 or Iraq have nothing to do with Ukraine invasion.

That was an analogy on Zelenzky and Russia being in cahoots. Are your comprehensive faculties failing you old bean?

I feel the same as you seem to totally ignore the reason for the intervention and just repeat the same old - Russia invaded Ukraine line.

Russia has explained her reasons and white lines but you dismiss them and have no due consideration but to further aggravate the situation by backing supporting the very reasons for that intervention.

Yes definitely seems pointless discussing with you here. Your agenda and mindset are pretty clear to me.

 

[timsk]

I think that Russia without kleptocracy would be much better for russians.
I can't predict their next leader but what I see is that with Putin they are going backward not forward.
They have everything: resources and talent, great education and good healthcare.
There is one thing I agree with Lavrov, I don't want a world ruled by US, but neither I want to go back to USSR.

Hi CV,
You quoted a question from my last post but - as far as I can see - haven't answered it? Regarding the points you make: they're all perfectly fair and reasonable, which makes my bewilderment as to why you support the west's involvement in this conflict all the more pronounced. You don't like kleptocrats - nor do I. The difference between us is that I reserve my ire for the kleptocrats that govern us and focus on what we can do about them and leave the Russians to worry about Putin and his pals in the Kremlin.

Like I and others keep saying - you have no idea whether getting shot of Putin will result in any net benefit to the west - and the downside risk is completely unknown. Whoever/whatever replaces him could be much worse. This comes full circle back to the question: is your hatred of Putin (who bears almost zero threat to our national security) so great that you'd be prepared to risk nuclear war just to get rid of him? If the answer is yes, please, please tell us why? Seriously, I can't get my head around why anybody thinks this is anything other than completely insane!

Tim.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

This comes full circle back to the question: is your hatred of Putin (who bears almost zero threat to our national security) so great that you'd be prepared to risk nuclear war just to get rid of him?

I think restoring democracy in Russia and the integrity of Ukraine is worth the risk.
I think 130 millions of russians and 40 millions of ukranians deserve the same freedom that we have.
This is the guy that deserved to rule Russia.

Boris Nemtsov - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[timsk]

I think restoring democracy in Russia and the integrity of Ukraine is worth the risk.
I think 130 millions of russians and 40 millions of ukranians deserve the same freedom that we have.
This is the guy that deserved to rule Russia.

Boris Nemtsov - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So CV, to enable others to have the freedoms that you percieve that we have - you're prepared to put your own life and the lives of your family and friends on the line? I can't speak for them, obviously, but if a familiy member or friend of mine took that view, I'd give them the mother of all tongue lashings! Even if this was morally and ethically justifiable (it isn't, btw), the risk of nuclear war with such an approach is real, wheras there's little probability - let alone certainty - that getting rid of Putin will result in the changes you desire. Besides which, isn't it a tad arrogant of you to think you know what's best for Russians (or anyone else for that matter), and that by getting rid of Putin they'll automatically embrace liberal western values? Russians can look after themselves and, if they're unhappy with their lot, they'll do something about it. It's precisely because of this sort of meddling in the affairs of other countries that the world is in such a mess.

Instead of trying to bring about regimne change in some far off land, focus your attention on the injustices and kleptocrats in the west and in our own government who are gradually eroding the same precious freedoms that you're so keen for the Russians and Ukrainians to embrace. A good place to start would be to fight Nadine Dorries' proposed legislation in the Online Safety Bill which, if passed, will result in a serious erosion of our freedoms . . .
We Need to Wake Up to the Dangers of the Online Safety Bill
The Online Safety Act - An Act of Betrayal
Tim.

 

[Atilla]

I think restoring democracy in Russia and the integrity of Ukraine is worth the risk.
I think 130 millions of russians and 40 millions of ukranians deserve the same freedom that we have.
This is the guy that deserved to rule Russia.

Boris Nemtsov - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is indeed very sad news. Reading that link, at the time of his assassination he was going to try and stop the Ukraine intervention and reject Russia helping Russian-pro side in Eastern Ukraine.

That is like objecting to what is of paramount importance to Russia with the expansion of NATO/CIA trained Avoz Battallion and NATO right up to Russia's border alongside killing of Pro-Russian civilians.

Once again I feel very sad and indeed he seems like a very clever man, but without having all the information did he really have a full understanding of the gravity of the situation at hand and what was at stake?

Could one risk bringing him in and educating him in the areas of strategic importance at what the superpowers are playing at?

Whilst I don't condone his assassination, he seemed to have stepped into something much bigger than his brain could digest. It sounds like he stepped in front of a juggernaut.

Now that Russia has fully intervened and nukes are being mentioned sadly he made a big mistake that cost him his life.

I can see why you would like him to be the next leader...

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Ok you like to speak about NATO ...
Why Baltics joined NATO exactly in 2004?
2004 is the year Russia stopped to be a democracy to become Putin's regime.

 

[Atilla]

Well imo membership of NATO back then went hand in hand with the desire to join the EU. The flavour of the moment was more economic than political or military for the baltic states.

Whilst Ukraine might be in the Baltic region, as before given the closer history and the main naval fleet of the Russians being housed in and around Crimea, the size and strategic importance of Ukraine far outweigh those of the other countries.

Moreover, Russia was pretty upset and angry about the other Baltic states joining back then. Giving the benefit of the doubt to the West was obviously the wrong approach. Continued expansion of NATO can no longer be tolerated. Especially more so with Zelensky aggressive attacks on Eastern Ukraine coupled with allowing Ukraine to become WMD hub for US investment.

It would be wrong to compare or treat Ukraine same as the other smaller Baltic states.

 

[counter_violent]

It's going so badly for Russia, it's almost farcical. Russia IS and WILL lose this conflict. The West's ability to bring Russia to it's knees by non nuclear means has not even been set in motion.

The difference between the situation in countries like Afghanistan and Ukraine is that the majority of the people are prepared to fight for their freedom. From the evidence we have seen, the Ukrainians are top of the tree by miles.

Putin is the modern day Hitler and must be dealt with accordingly.

China, North Korea, Iran are all watching this conflict. Any sign that unopposed aggression is allowed to win the day gives every despot dictator the green light to do as they like.

I couldn't give a tuppeny toss about the price of fence panels and reinforcing mesh. Even expressing such views tells us that "self interest" is placed higher than solidarity and empathy for the suffering of humankind.

Putin is not only a threat to his neighbours but also to his own people. At best, Russia is now in the wilderness for decades.

Anyone who says the Putin is not a threat has simply not been paying attention.
I'll leave ya all with this.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

 

[CavaliereVerde]

China, North Korea, Iran are all watching this conflict. Any sign that unopposed aggression is allowed to win the day gives every despot dictator the green light to do as they like.

You forgot Turkey.
Erdogan just opposed Finland joining NATO.
BTW he is playing very well: drones to Ukraine but no sanction to Russia, this summer will be spectacular for tourism in Turkey.
Turkey is becoming a new Switzerland.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

I couldn't give a tuppeny toss about the price of fence panels and reinforcing mesh. Even expressing such views tells us that "self interest" is placed higher than solidarity and empathy for the suffering of humankind.

👍
Exact!
I am happy to pay more for fuel and and pasta to penalyze a dictator.

 

[Atilla]

👍
Exact!
I am happy to pay more for fuel and and pasta to penalyze a dictator.

So much tosh coming from governments that interfere in other nations' interests 000s of miles away.

It's always about national interest and security.

As for the price hikes they are the consequence of our politicians choosing to set up embargoes on the exchange of goods and services. Russia poses no threat to the UK or the US.

As for fine words they are selective. Why isn't anyone supporting the overthrow of MBS then. Blood curdling killer that he is. Likes to listen to his victim's cries of pain whilst they are being dissected.

The hypocrisy of some people! Really...

 

[CavaliereVerde]

As for the price hikes they are the consequence of our politicians choosing to set up embargoes on the exchange of goods and services. Russia poses no threat to the UK or the US.

Yes and it is to punish a dictator that started a war.
Ukraine and Russia are not so far from Italy, 1600 km.

 

[CavaliereVerde]

Why isn't anyone supporting the overthrow of MBS then.

Fully agree, before this war Russia was a better place to be than Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia is middle ages, they would deserve to be nuked.

 

[timsk]

I couldn't give a tuppeny toss about the price of fence panels and reinforcing mesh. Even expressing such views tells us that "self interest" is placed higher than solidarity and empathy for the suffering of humankind.

Arse about face c_v.
I'm the one that wants the war to stop. NOW! You're the one that wants to keep it going until Putin is defeated (although you refuse to say why), and that won't happen for the reasons I've articulated and you've conveniently ignored. I'm amazed that you can't see - or don't want to see - that self interest is what drives this war. Not mine, but that of western politicians and the military industrial complex who all profit from it one way or another. As for Putin and Russia losing - you're just listenning to what you want to hear from the BBC and not looking at credible OSINT sources for a balanced view. Find me one - just one military strategist who says the west/Ukraine can win the war while Russia has complete dominance in the skies and you'll have the bare bones of an argument that victory for Zelensky isn't just fantasy. As things currently stand, it's neither conceivable, believable or achievable.
Tim.

 

[counter_violent]

Fully agree, before this war Russia was a better place to be than Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia is middle ages, they would deserve to be nuked.

They will have company soon enough. Russia under Putin seems hell bent on joining them in the middle ages.

 

[counter_violent]

Arse about face c_v.
I'm the one that wants the war to stop. NOW! You're the one that wants to keep it going until Putin is defeated (although you refuse to say why), and that won't happen for the reasons I've articulated and you've conveniently ignored. I'm amazed that you can't see - or don't want to see - that self interest is what drives this war. Not mine, but that of western politicians and the military industrial complex who all profit from it one way or another. As for Putin and Russia losing - you're just listenning to what you want to hear from the BBC and not looking at credible OSINT sources for a balanced view. Find me one - just one military strategist who says the west/Ukraine can win the war while Russia has complete dominance in the skies and you'll have the bare bones of an argument that victory for Zelensky isn't just fantasy. As things currently stand, it's neither conceivable, believable or achievable.
Tim.

No, you want the war to stop by appeasing Putin. Not One consideration for what the Ukrainians want under Zelensky, their freely elected leader.

How many times do I have to spell it out. Putin the self appointed dictator has to be stopped. It matters not what means are employed. Everyone is at risk for as long as he's in power.

Putin is part of the military industrial complex. He has some resources and plays the game as well as anyone else who controls them.

There are 2 reasons why your fence panels and steel mesh prices are so high.

1) Biden (total clown) has somehow managed to take the US back from being energy independent under the last administration, by pandering to the lefties, climate activists etc.
2) Putin playing power politics with energy.

Energy cost is the number one reason why we have rampant inflation.

Of course Ukraine wins this war. How do you imagine Putin can control Ukraine when the Ukrainians reject absolutely, any interference from Russia. Then there's the small matter of the West fully supporting the Ukrainian cause.

Putin is fkt. Every realist knows this. We don't need any analysts to tell us what the outcome will be.

Russia is not dominating the skies. If they were, this invasion would not have lasted 3 months already.

 

[Atilla]

I'm giving up on this thread honestly...

 

[counter_violent]

I'm giving up on this thread honestly...

OK, that will be One less "wrong think" to correct.