UBS rogue trader also lost 123K spread betting

D70 - looks like we can add chinabean to the list!
:cool:

He kinda emphasized my point.

He talks of swap, repo and IR desks. What use is anything from them? 99% of retail trader dont know what these products are, and rightly so. Furthermore these products / desks mostly require a completely different approach: spreads and curve trading, assuming they are taking some prop risk, etc. They can probably assist in retail traders risk profile and maths requirements but so can an educated dustman.

But yeah, we can argue the toss all day.
 
Should probably say, I do agree that everyone's opinion should be treated equally.......just some more equally than others lolol (props to Orwell!)

seriously though, I completely get the point being made about listening to everyone, I probably get 50-60% of my calls right (maybe 60-70% of the bigger macro calls) which is enough to make decent p/l with the correct risk/reward structure but it means around half the time I'm wrong and someone else is right.
 
He kinda emphasized my point.

He talks of swap, repo and IR desks. What use is anything from them? 99% of retail trader dont know what these products are, and rightly so. Furthermore these products / desks mostly require a completely different approach: spreads and curve trading, assuming they are taking some prop risk, etc. They can probably assist in retail traders risk profile and maths requirements but so can an educated dustman.

But yeah, we can argue the toss all day.


Dude, we're talking about different things here......

I wasn't acutally arguing against your point about taking in opinions from everyone, I was correcting the statement re investment bank traders not trading for a living. Some of these guys then go on to begin their own fund and that was the crux of what I was getting at, to say that bank traders yield zero interest is a disservice to the good ones, they trade, they live their markets on a daily basis and the have a real passion for what they do......that's all I was saying in my own little prosaic way:innocent:

p.s. i am going to test my dustman tomorrow! :cheesy:
 
We're back to the old argument of the value of un-actionable (to retail tarders) information on markets. Personally, I like it all :)
 
Couple of points . . .
1) A fund manager mate of mine dropped £50k spread-betting the footsie . . . but he's a Bond FM, similarly this guy wasn't directionally trading the footsie . . .
2) UBS must have thought he was making money as when I was there (2000 - 2004) non-disclosure of a trading account (including spread-betting) operated by you or a member of your immediate family, was grounds for immediate dismissal. Any and all p.a. dealing had to be reported and intra-month, let alone intra-day trading was prohibited by a rule saying that you couldn't close out a trade within 60 days
 
lol, that's probably why he lost 50k, style drift ;) Saw them same thing in 08 but on a much bigger scale with one of the funds I was dealing with, they dropped just over £600m on one trade......good work! That combined with a couple of other dud trades saw investors cue up that Bob Marley classic, redemption song!

I agree as well to the other post, even though information may not affect your market directly, it can affect it indirectly or come into play later on. The guys that were analysing US mortgage docs in 05 and saw the crash coming are a good example. A retail trader wouldn't have been able to use that info immediately but when things starting going wrong in 07, that info could have come into play. I read a lot of sh1t most of which doesn't neccessarily help my day to day trading but it helps shape my view of the world which in turn can help my trading overall. I don't sit there analysing the info endlessly but kinda just lock it away at the back of my mind. But..... different horse and all that good stuff lol
 
this guys must have been addicted to winning that he NEVER wanted to lose. so he would have been adding and adding to a losing trade int he hope that he would never lose. until he lost the LOT
 
as one of the market makers in this... we love 'city' traders because there is a disconnect between trading the company money and trading your own....

fear and greed is not so much in evidence with your managed fund but is very much to the fore when trying to 'beat the market' with your own funds.

to be honest i am the same. i am terrible at trading my own cash but have managed to survive for nearly 30 years on managing my employers money.

Simon
 
I attended the trial for the first two week, and got to speak with the Man in Question. A very decent guy who go into banking the hard way of settlements then working his way up. His desk was earning around £15,000,000 per year when he started and over a the next quarter he earn £16,000,000 then the next quarter £45,000,000 for the desk of six traders with increased loss limits of £100,000,00

.All his desk were aware of of his "Umbrella Account" likewise some people in the Back Office and in several echolens of management. NO compliants were made during this massive up trend in profits.

In the 2nd Qtr of 2011, he decided to be bearish the S&P indice, and loaded up on his position. He believed that the market was not acting right and it was due for a major correction. Over the next few weeks the market edge slightly higher each day, which meant all his desk colleagues and Manager were taking the micky out of his "Bearish" stance, he insisted that the market was due for a correction, but his amigos were all ribbing him and making Cartoons of Adoboli the Bear. Another factor was that his desk manager was more of a scalper than a swing trader and was constantly making loses for the desk, through Adoboli's style of trading and the "umbrella" account it allowed the whole desk to mask their general losses.

Near the end of July he finally gave in to "peer" group pressure and switched his position to Long. Taking the relatively smaller loss on the short side. After that the rest as they say is History. The twin events of Obama care rebellion and the USA downgrade pushed the market to it's lowest lows in one week.

Colleagues agree that he was very active and well studied in the and with the Market to an obessive degree. After discussing his position with with Desk they decided that he should take the rap for the loss, obviously they would not have asked him to take the credit at bonus time had he of stuck to his original decision. He "owned up " as the futures contracts would have had to of been rolled over and that sort of size could not he sweeped under the carpet.

The pressures occured when in 2008 UBS lossed $50 Billion in the sub prime debacle and it was realised that the only department that could possible make it up was through the Sales traders or the Proprietary Traders. The Sales Traders were fleecing thier clients to such a large degree UBS were losing them. This meant the pressure was on the Prop desks to recover the money, hence increased limit sizes and a more embracing attitude to risk.

As Mr Hughes, the ex UBS head of ETF trading desk Adoboli's supervisor mentioned the training consisted of 6 months on the job and a multiple choice test about Derivatives. After that bingo Size for your Eyes.

My own personal views is while he did do some ficticious trades, he did so in an environment that encourged it, I have yet to hear of a Court case of a "Rogue" Trader that make the Bank $ 1 Billion.
 
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Hear Hear!! :)

Definitely agree, plus the fact he got reprimanded for opening a spread betting account shows that he's not that smart!!

That being said, he does also highlight the fact that there are some people that work in front office that really do not merit that position.

Maybe not as a trader but he seems to know the difference between FO, MO and BO.

The full trade cycle in any bank is not that easy to suss or get around.

I think the boy has merit but simply not as a trader.

He will no doubt write a book on how to prevent fraud and become rich advising clients on how to catch out fraudsters like himself.

Funny old world is it not? :cool:
 
"...he believed that the market was not acting right..."

Strewth - people REALLY let this guy trade with their money?
 
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lol the market never right !


For those who have perfect information inside information, the market is always right.

For those who have imperfect ie laggy information, the market is always wrong.
 
The market is neither right nor wrong.

The market just is.

mr-miyagi-karate-kid.jpg
 
Of course, its a bit like saying the weather is wrong? It is what it is and only forecasts and the calculated dynamics that are seen to drive it can be wrong.
 
ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz

The bottom line is that as a trader, he has traded MORE size and made MORE money over a Period of Two years and Of course, Lost More money than anyone on this so called "Traders" Forum.

Following Kwickwools anogly (sp) it like each day carrying an Umbrella (pun included) each and every day while camping in in July feeling that it's going there's going to be a very BIG down pour, only to be mocked by peers due to the appearent sunshine, relenting and then walking about without said Umbrella only for it to be raining cats and dogs for the next two weeks.
 
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ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz

The bottom line is that as a trader, he has traded MORE size and made MORE money over a Period of Two years and Of course, Lost More money than anyone on this so called "Traders" Forum.
.

Sorry but based on what ?
 
The weather analogy used on here is a good one.

We British are terrific at moaning about the weather. We should know better. It does what it does.

I'd be doing this guy a kindness in describing him as naive, but to be honest his view that the market wasn't doing what it should has shown him up for what he really is.

As thick as pig****, that's what.

His employers need to take a long hard look at themselves for putting him in a position with that much repsonsibility.
 
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