firewalker99
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firewalker99
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as for learning what we are taught... I think the things we are taught in school (during childhood) are of very little use in later life. Gatto's work is interesting for that matter (An Underground Education).
Adilbhai,
So what is “proper knowledge”?
I assume, given the general context if this forum, you consider there is a relevance between God, religion, gambling/speculating/trading?
As Firewalker says, there is a contradiction between faith and intelligence; the former is independent of - indeed, irrelevant to – the latter. Unless one is trying to develop an intellectual basis/justification for religious belief.
Grant.
So what is “proper knowledge”?
I assume, given the general context if this forum, you consider there is a relevance between God, religion, gambling/speculating/trading?
As Firewalker says, there is a contradiction between faith and intelligence; the former is independent of - indeed, irrelevant to – the latter. Unless one is trying to develop an intellectual basis/justification for religious belief.
Grant.
new_trader
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Intelligence and knowledge are two very different things. We are as intelligent today as the humans who walked the earth 5,000 years ago. Our ideas and knowledge have evolved but we haven't changed very much biologically, if at all.
Actually, there is no contradiction between Intelligence and faith. With one caveat of
course; being that the article of faith is not held in the face of evidence to the contrary. In fact the two are not even related.
From Wilipedia.......
Intelligence is a property of mind that encompasses many related abilities, such as the capacities to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn.
No where in there is the word or idea of faith mentioned. Faith can exist independantly to intelligence. To simplify, faith picks up where evidence leaves off. Some of the most highly intelligent people of the human race have displayed "faith". Einstein for example; would you like to suggest he was not intelligent simply because he professed a faith in a higher power?
The idea faith is contradictory to intelligence is a common misconception those who profess an absence of faith in anything not scientifically "proven" seem to be under.
One must wonder why so many seemingly intelligent people fall victim to the same simple misconception?
Cheers,
PKFFW
PKFFW,
“being that the article of faith is not held in the face of evidence to the contrary”. What about an absence of evidence?
Re the Wikipedia definition: “No where in there is the word or idea of faith mentioned”. Why should faith be mentioned – it may be relevant to this discussion but it’s irrelevant to the definition of intelligence.
“The idea faith is contradictory to intelligence is a common misconception”
The difficulty I have is with how a scientist can simultaneously assume two contradictory positions - scientific rationalism and faith. What is the basis for their faith, and how do they justify it to themselves?
Grant.
“being that the article of faith is not held in the face of evidence to the contrary”. What about an absence of evidence?
Re the Wikipedia definition: “No where in there is the word or idea of faith mentioned”. Why should faith be mentioned – it may be relevant to this discussion but it’s irrelevant to the definition of intelligence.
“The idea faith is contradictory to intelligence is a common misconception”
The difficulty I have is with how a scientist can simultaneously assume two contradictory positions - scientific rationalism and faith. What is the basis for their faith, and how do they justify it to themselves?
Grant.
That is my point. Faith is the choice to believe something in the absence of evidence. Making this choice has nothing to do with one's intelligence. Faith and intelligence are not related and hence having faith and being intelligent is not a contradiction as has been suggested.
Again, exactly my point. Faith is irrelevant to the definition of intelligence. Hence, having faith in something does not in any way suggest a lack of intelligence.
What difficulty you have with their position and their justification with that position is a reflection of your idea and position and not a basis for making the judgement that someone holding said position lacks intelligence. If you are suggesting they do lack intelligence by holding said position, you are a making an assertion that there is no evidence for. Hence you are displaying a faith in your own unproven judgement and therefore should consider that you yourself lack intelligence.
As for a scientist holding two contradictory positions.....can you say you have never made decisions or come to conclusions about different things in your life based upon two different modalities? For example decisions about your worklife and decisions about your lovelife being based on two different frames of reference. That is all the scientist in your example is doing. In one area of his life he displays and operates under scientific rationalism and in others he operates under faith. I would put it to you that the areas he displays faith are ones that at this time science can not rationalise. Thus he has no option but to make a decision based on his own ideas or to make no decision at all.
My point is that to choose to believe in no way indicates a lack of intelligence. Faith and itelligence are not related at all. Further, I wonder why it is that so many of those who choose not to believe are so convinced there is a link or relation between faith and intelligence and that those of faith must lack intelligence? In fact the opposite is true, those suggesting people of "faith" must lack intelligence are displaying a distinct lack of intelligence by not comprehending the simple fact there isn't a relation between the two.
Cheers,
PKFFW
TWI
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I have yet to hear an intelligent argument that convinces me faith is anything other than a result of circumstantial or environmental brainwashing.
To me institutionalised religion, that is the root of most peoples faith, is violent, irrational, intolerant, racist and just another tool for meglamaniacal lunatics to exert influence over a brainwashed mass.
Of course there are many good people who have misguided faith and who do not fall into this category but unfortunately we would be better off if Religion could be eradicated as the maniacs I mentioned do far more to damage to our society than the good elements of religion improve it.
It does not take faith to be a good and compassionate human being but many of those with faith would have you believe it does. They, as far as I am concerned, can go to hell.
To me institutionalised religion, that is the root of most peoples faith, is violent, irrational, intolerant, racist and just another tool for meglamaniacal lunatics to exert influence over a brainwashed mass.
Of course there are many good people who have misguided faith and who do not fall into this category but unfortunately we would be better off if Religion could be eradicated as the maniacs I mentioned do far more to damage to our society than the good elements of religion improve it.
It does not take faith to be a good and compassionate human being but many of those with faith would have you believe it does. They, as far as I am concerned, can go to hell.
JTrader
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Nothing to do with gambling or trading, but here's a couple of interesting (comedian) George Carlin quotes on Religion............
George Carlin on religion -
http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm
George Carlin on religion -
http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm
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free4440273
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...such people tend to be the biggest hypocrites in life also in my opinion. and when i mean hypocrisy, i mean hypocrisy - writ large.
Crap Buddist
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hmm, on reading this post heres what popped into my head.
No need to have faith, just believe in yourself.
I keep on banging on, but humans have free will. Now ask yourself this, who is trying to control that or take that away from you? If there is a God, God figure, superior entity, then there can be no judgements of how a human lives his/her life, because of free will given. Sure stacks of other humans will judge you, but maybe thats their JOB. Maybe they are jealous or insecure or angry that you may actually want to exercise you free will to do as you choose.
hmm, I guess what people need to be aware of is manipulation of other peoples(our) free will. Exploitation of it, using of it to fulfill their (the manipulators )own free wills desire to get a result for themselves.
The solution to dealing with this, is this. Up yours, no choose to do. A polite, thank you, no, could also be given. Again the choice is yours. Aint that cool.
Upon declining you may notice the appearance of shock on the manipulator, or his/her face may resemble that of a babies smacked A.rse. Fundamentalist manipulators ,true to the cause, will get a hard on. A challenge and they may result to phase 2, violence to manipulate anothers free will.
Crikey but what about the herding instinct of humans? Even general Custer in his last stand ,being surrounded by Indians, they all huddled together and were butchered quickly. hmm evolution. OK ive turned this "united we stand divided we fall."
To - divided we stand ,united we fall. Humans *need to be individuals and recognise that everyone else is an individual with free will.
I dunno. Theres conflicts, individuals and control of the masses. hmm a toughie. Where will it all end or begin.
* no dictatorship
, maybe recognise they have a choice.ksmith9472
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Contradictory?
How is intelligence contradictory of faith? If you have the ability to interpret the world to the point of comprehending that there is no higher power, and that is the most logical way to view the physical world, must you also be able to encompass a world in which one exists? Isn't intelligence the ability to see different scenarios given consistent standards with differing variables? A truly open mind is a sign of intelligence. Just playing devil's advocate.....
I think that's a contradictio in terminis.
Highly intelligent and faith/religion/God
How is intelligence contradictory of faith? If you have the ability to interpret the world to the point of comprehending that there is no higher power, and that is the most logical way to view the physical world, must you also be able to encompass a world in which one exists? Isn't intelligence the ability to see different scenarios given consistent standards with differing variables? A truly open mind is a sign of intelligence. Just playing devil's advocate.....
firewalker99
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Well first of all it was a tongue in cheek comment.
But second, studies show an inverse correlation between intelligence and belief in "a higher power". This doesn't mean both are contradictory obviously, but you'll find that the world of academics consists mostly of atheist people.
However, the point is not about what one can encompass or envision a world where such being exists, but which one makes most sense from a logical, rational point of view. But Richard Dawkins is much better suited to answer that, than I am
And as for "an open mind"... the disbelief in something non-scientific does not mean you are closedminded, in fact the belief in non-scientific concepts may actually be a result of closedmindness. See this very interesting video:
Dailymotion - Open-mindedness - a Hi-Tech et Science video
Technically Fundamental
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This is all nonesense. The church holding back the pursuit of knowledge based on sacreligious scientific practices (e.g. autopsy) and theorems (most of which were disproved) has lead to a classic black and white division which does neither side any good.
IMO a belief in a creator of all things in this barrel of cosmic absudities and naturally (re)occuring patterns and mechanics that we call a universe/really is not that irrational. How is it any more rational than for example an animal having an offspring that by statistical probability, undergoes sudden and inexplicable genetic change which is actually beneficial to its survival as opposed to turning it into some sort of retarded mong as has happened in every other recorded instance. Multipy that by the probability that not only does this creature flourish and spread, it the finds a suitable mate and despite mixing genes with a less superior creature (unless it happened twice in the same georaphical area), this gene is not diluted (incest? nope.) and the new species continues on.
Point is I think its naieve to place yourself on either side of the fence that was drawn up by two bunches of idiots years ago. Make your own mind up and don't be swayed by the masses or by stereotypes.
IMO a belief in a creator of all things in this barrel of cosmic absudities and naturally (re)occuring patterns and mechanics that we call a universe/really is not that irrational. How is it any more rational than for example an animal having an offspring that by statistical probability, undergoes sudden and inexplicable genetic change which is actually beneficial to its survival as opposed to turning it into some sort of retarded mong as has happened in every other recorded instance. Multipy that by the probability that not only does this creature flourish and spread, it the finds a suitable mate and despite mixing genes with a less superior creature (unless it happened twice in the same georaphical area), this gene is not diluted (incest? nope.) and the new species continues on.
Point is I think its naieve to place yourself on either side of the fence that was drawn up by two bunches of idiots years ago. Make your own mind up and don't be swayed by the masses or by stereotypes.
firewalker99
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Trying to explain something "inexplicable" by something even more far-fetched, thàt is naivety. Besides there is nothing "inexplicable" about a statistical aberration. What would be more inexplicable is the fact that no such events exist or have existed...
Technically Fundamental
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If you're talking about models I'd agree but this is the real 4d world.
now maybe but not before the universe existed. Then the probability was 1 lol.
arabianights
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Never heard the anthropogenic principle expressed with a lol on the end
Technically Fundamental
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I've never heard of the anthropogenic principle.
Have you found me a job yet?
Have you found me a job yet?
