t2w being trashed by religious threads

[ppuado]

Best you do some research Hitler was definitely no Christian, the Russian and Chinese opposed all religion, can't see how this doesn't fit into atheism. Start googling and you will find that these dictators are mostly attributed to atheism.

Err ... Hitler was a Christian and the Third Reich was not an atheist putsch. And neither were the Russian and Chinese revolutions. And well, Pol Pot was just insanity in a world of constant death and fear created by American carpet bombing.

 

[dimsdaletraders]

hey i am an atheist.

atheist noun
/ˈeɪ.θi.ɪst/ n [C]
someone who believes that God or gods do not exist


Not interested in attacking options, or anyone else, for their religious beliefs, and not attacking options here for what I perceive to be his misuse of the word "atheist" either (for allI know, he may mean exactly what he said, and he doesn't believe in a god either), but I'd like to clarify that when I described myself as an atheist, I meant exactly the above dictionary definition...no more, no less.

regards
Tess

 

[dcraig1]

Best you do some research Hitler was definitely no Christian, the Russian and Chinese opposed all religion, can't see how this doesn't fit into atheism. Start googling and you will find that these dictators are mostly attributed to atheism.

From Mein Kampf:

"... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work."

You have an exceedingly narrow view of the world where social and political changes just follow from professed religion or lack thereof. The Russian revolution was very much a response to terrible suffering in WWI. The Bolshevik slogan - "Bread, Land and Peace" tells an awful lot of what it was really about. I will remind you that WWI was a war fought by christian powers (all of which had god on their side) including Russia before the revolution.

 

[ppuado]

There is no atheist bible. Atheists do not have a common code of ethics.
No but science is usually their argument, plenty of books on the subject:-0
Atheists do not run around, sending people to third world countries attempting to convert people to atheism.
Ah yes that would be the same people that raise millions of dollars to help these people. Hmm so they get off there comfy backsides, go to deprived countries, live in poverty and a lot of the time under the threat of death to help and they do it for no profit. Most of them are actually doing and living what the bible says and so this is what they share. And you criticise this. At least they are doing something

Atheists do not start wars on religious grounds.
Oh that old chestnut, I think you will find that the majority of wars are actually not religious at all. Religion may be used as a front but war is usually about power. But hey as I mention on another post there have been enough dictators in the 20th century to level out that score

There has been no Atheist crusade.
so the atheists trying to take any religion out of schools banning prayer, trying to change the meaning of Christmas etc etc isn't a crusade. It is just done in a more subtle way.

Atheists do not blow themselves up or fly planes into buildings.
Yeah I am sure there has never been an atheist extremist. Yes that is right lets label all religion based on a small number of brainwashed extremists

Atheism has no 'head', no spiritual leader.
No on the whole I guess it doesn't. (Darwinism, Science, not to mention the odd dictator that crops up from time to time, they lead enough people to these sort of views.

Where are all these atheist extremists you mentions wanting to impose Atheist law on the citizens of the countries in which they reside.
Er did you not read the post, history shows quite a few. In most of the western world you have it, but just because they aren't blowing people up or shouting from the roof tops doesn't mean they don't have extremist views for there cause.

Where are these atheist extremists in the press ?
What the heck has that got to do with anything. So where are all these extremist Christians in the press, staring wars :whistling

Do atheists perhaps control the media and are therefore able to supress news of their misdeeds ?
Well do a little research and find out where the power is and their views. The media is manipulated, they suppress and publicise what ever suits there purpose. Not that I'm saying they are atheists, but control is control, power is power.

 

[ppuado]

My view is not narrow at all, I am open to be corrected, understand the underlying belief and views of the leaders, much can be done under the guise of of something else, we see it happens all the time, just look recent world events. So something starts out as something and ends with something else, all you need to do is look at the result to understand the motives.

So because WW1 was fought by so called Christian based nations was it a Religious war?

The main view I was trying to address was regarding extremism, religion etc etc and how those with an atheist view point seem to think it is a blames ideal. Where clearly it isn't.

From Mein Kampf:

"... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work."

You have an exceedingly narrow view of the world where social and political changes just follow from professed religion or lack thereof. The Russian revolution was very much a response to terrible suffering in WWI. The Bolshevik slogan - "Bread, Land and Peace" tells an awful lot of what it was really about. I will remind you that WWI was a war fought by christian powers (all of which had god on their side) including Russia before the revolution.

 

[DionysusToast]

There is no atheist bible. Atheists do not have a common code of ethics.
No but science is usually their argument, plenty of books on the subject:-0

That's a total strawman of an argument. There are plenty of scientists that are religious. Your implication is that all books on science are atheist,which of course is ridiculous. I maintain that there is no religious bible.

Atheists do not run around, sending people to third world countries attempting to convert people to atheism.
Ah yes that would be the same people that raise millions of dollars to help these people. Hmm so they get off there comfy backsides, go to deprived countries, live in poverty and a lot of the time under the threat of death to help and they do it for no profit. Most of them are actually doing and living what the bible says and so this is what they share. And you criticise this. At least they are doing something

I am not sure how much you donated to Haiti - but I gave. I have done charity work. 2 weeks ago I spent the day in an Aids hospice for children. At no point did I feel the need to ram my point of view down their throats whislt helping out. There are plenty of people that help others without the need to involve changing their world view. I live in in a country where we still have Mormon missionaries trying to convert Buddhists. to 'save them'

Atheists do not start wars on religious grounds.
Oh that old chestnut, I think you will find that the majority of wars are actually not religious at all. Religion may be used as a front but war is usually about power. But hey as I mention on another post there have been enough dictators in the 20th century to level out that score

Well, that's history re-written then. You MUST be a Christian

There has been no Atheist crusade.
so the atheists trying to take any religion out of schools banning prayer, trying to change the meaning of Christmas etc etc isn't a crusade. It is just done in a more subtle way.

You would do well to educate yourself on the Crusades so that you actually know what a crusade is before talking about people 'trying to change the meaning of Christmas'

Atheists do not blow themselves up or fly planes into buildings.
Yeah I am sure there has never been an atheist extremist. Yes that is right lets label all religion based on a small number of brainwashed extremists

With no religion, these people would not be doing what they do. It's just another symptom of the illness

Atheism has no 'head', no spiritual leader.
No on the whole I guess it doesn't. (Darwinism, Science, not to mention the odd dictator that crops up from time to time, they lead enough people to these sort of views.


So - basically Darwin and Science are all atheist concepts then. You must follow quite an extreme sect.

Where are all these atheist extremists you mentions wanting to impose Atheist law on the citizens of the countries in which they reside.
Er did you not read the post, history shows quite a few. In most of the western world you have it, but just because they aren't blowing people up or shouting from the roof tops doesn't mean they don't have extremist views for there cause.


Well - you seem to have Hitler and Stalin figured wrong. I don't see you providing other evidence for your strawmen arguments

Where are these atheist extremists in the press ?
What the heck has that got to do with anything. So where are all these extremist Christians in the press, staring wars :whistling

SImply put that if there was a large, organised Atheist religion, their activites would probably be reported in the media

Do atheists perhaps control the media and are therefore able to supress news of their misdeeds ?
Well do a little research and find out where the power is and their views. The media is manipulated, they suppress and publicise what ever suits there purpose. Not that I'm saying they are atheists, but control is control, power is power.

You are correct - they aren't atheists. Most of the owners of big media are Zionists. There you go - religion again.

 

[DionysusToast]

My view is not narrow at all, I am open to be corrected, understand the underlying belief and views of the leaders, much can be done under the guise of of something else, we see it happens all the time, just look recent world events. So something starts out as something and ends with something else, all you need to do is look at the result to understand the motives.

Using this argument, you could argue that the Taliban aren't really motivated by religion.

Of course, you can't prove your point but it does conveniently give you an 'out' for religion being the real reason for problems.

Closer to home of course, we had religious problems in Northern Ireland for many years - people blowing each other up all in the name of Christianity.

 

[dcraig1]

The main view I was trying to address was regarding extremism, religion etc etc and how those with an atheist view point seem to think it is a blames ideal. Where clearly it isn't.

The point is really that the Bolshevik leaders were not motivated by atheism - it's really got nothing to do with it. They were Marxists or more accurately Marxist-Leninists, some of who were also also happened to be atheists. The revolution was not driven by atheism and the aftermath right up to modern times was not driven by atheism. If some Christians ended up in the firing line it was because of their opposition to the revolution, and the general environment of chaos and suffering and civil war rather than because of their religion.

Of course as things degenerated into the madness of Stalinism, just about anybody, religious or not ended up in the firing line.

 

[ppuado]

I never said that religion is blames, any group of people that are like minded can cause ills to promote their cause.

Just seems you are incapable to accept

1. That atheists have also been the cause of many atrocities and aren't complete blameless
2. That there is also good that comes out of religion or more to the point religious beliefs.

There is good and bad in every belief system or people that use it for good or bad.

I am not trying to convert you to any belief. What you believe is completely up to you. All I have done is point out an opposite view as you have, just seems you are unable to concede to any point unless they meet your extreme atheist views. Pity.

In the end we will all find out if we are right or wrong, if there is no God then fine, I have lived a good life and done no ills, but if there is then I won't be worried, but you will

Using this argument, you could argue that the Taliban aren't really motivated by religion.

Of course, you can't prove your point but it does conveniently give you an 'out' for religion being the real reason for problems.

Closer to home of course, we had religious problems in Northern Ireland for many years - people blowing each other up all in the name of Christianity.

 

[dcraig1]

I never said that religion is blames, any group of people that are like minded can cause ills to promote their cause.

Just seems you are incapable to accept

1. That atheists have also been the cause of many atrocities and aren't complete blameless
2. That there is also good that comes out of religion or more to the point religious beliefs.

There is good and bad in every belief system or people that use it for good or bad.

I am not trying to convert you to any belief. What you believe is completely up to you. All I have done is point out an opposite view as you have, just seems you are unable to concede to any point unless they meet your extreme atheist views. Pity.

In the end we will all find out if we are right or wrong, if there is no God then fine, I have lived a good life and done no ills, but if there is then I won't be worried, but you will

I've no doubt that persons of just about any religion you care to name, and people of no religion and atheists have all committed atrocities throughout history. However, you will find it exceedingly difficult to point an instance of something called "The Atheist Party" or such like doing so. Not so for organized religion. The history of religion is littered with religious wars. The history of atheism? Now why is that - maybe atheists don't think imaginary friends are worth killing each other for.

And actually I'm not an extreme atheist. If somebody thinks that some god wanted to have a bit of fun, invented some damed cleaver physical laws and a universe for them to govern and then sat back and watched it take it's course, I find that not particularly silly though I don't subscribe to to it. It is the compulsive-obsessive micro managing gods that I find a bit objectionable.

 

[DionysusToast]

I never said that religion is blames, any group of people that are like minded can cause ills to promote their cause.

Just seems you are incapable to accept

1. That atheists have also been the cause of many atrocities and aren't complete blameless
2. That there is also good that comes out of religion or more to the point religious beliefs.

There is good and bad in every belief system or people that use it for good or bad.

I am not trying to convert you to any belief. What you believe is completely up to you. All I have done is point out an opposite view as you have, just seems you are unable to concede to any point unless they meet your extreme atheist views. Pity.

In the end we will all find out if we are right or wrong, if there is no God then fine, I have lived a good life and done no ills, but if there is then I won't be worried, but you will

If there is a God, why exactly should I be worried ?

Are you that brainwashed to think that only Christians lead good lives ? That only Christians would experience an afterlife if such a thing exists ?

You have been conditioned to live your life in fear of what happens after life.

I have to presume you are Catholic.

I would much prefer to live my life doing the right thing because I believe it is right than doing the right thing because I fear the pearly gates may be locked to me.

 

[ppuado]

Crickey, still going, obviously you missed the points of my response and focused on the last sentence, must be because it had the word God in it.

For one I have not been brainwashed by anybody. I never said or believe only Christians live good lives. I actually said there is good and bad in all beliefs.

I am not in fear or ever have been as you suggest with your pearly gates statement.

Yes I am a Christian, I am not a Catholic (not that there is anything wrong with that) and no I wasn't brain washed. I read the Bible for myself starting with the new testament because I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I made my own decision based on what the book taught me and not fear of the afterlife as you suggest. I have never rammed my own views on others.

So as this being the bases of my last statement of the previous post, I am referring to the God of the bible.

So if the God of the bible does not exist then no big deal, I as you have lived good right lives. But if the God of the bible does exist then.....

If there is a God, why exactly should I be worried ?

Are you that brainwashed to think that only Christians lead good lives ? That only Christians would experience an afterlife if such a thing exists ?

You have been conditioned to live your life in fear of what happens after life.

I have to presume you are Catholic.

I would much prefer to live my life doing the right thing because I believe it is right than doing the right thing because I fear the pearly gates may be locked to me.

 

[ppuado]

I've no doubt that persons of just about any religion you care to name, and people of no religion and atheists have all committed atrocities throughout history. However, you will find it exceedingly difficult to point an instance of something called "The Atheist Party" or such like doing so. Not so for organized religion. The history of religion is littered with religious wars. The history of atheism? Now why is that - maybe atheists don't think imaginary friends are worth killing each other for.

And actually I'm not an extreme atheist. If somebody thinks that some god wanted to have a bit of fun, invented some damed cleaver physical laws and a universe for them to govern and then sat back and watched it take it's course, I find that not particularly silly though I don't subscribe to to it. It is the compulsive-obsessive micro managing gods that I find a bit objectionable.

 

[ppuado]

Ok so granted that this is correct then you could say as a result of an extreme ideology 10's of millions have been slaughtered which has nothing to do with religion.

So the points raised that with no religion the world would be a fine and dandy place as offered by Toast and others is just purely delusional.

The point is really that the Bolshevik leaders were not motivated by atheism - it's really got nothing to do with it. They were Marxists or more accurately Marxist-Leninists, some of who were also also happened to be atheists. The revolution was not driven by atheism and the aftermath right up to modern times was not driven by atheism. If some Christians ended up in the firing line it was because of their opposition to the revolution, and the general environment of chaos and suffering and civil war rather than because of their religion.

Of course as things degenerated into the madness of Stalinism, just about anybody, religious or not ended up in the firing line.

 

[DionysusToast]

In the end we will all find out if we are right or wrong, if there is no God then fine, I have lived a good life and done no ills, but if there is then I won't be worried, but you will

OK - one more time. Why should I be worried ?

 

[DionysusToast]

So the points raised that with no religion the world would be a fine and dandy place as offered by Toast and others is just purely delusional.

No-one said that - it's just that there would be a lot more people on the planet.

1 - Not so many killed by religious wars i.e. the 6 million Jews in the 2nd world war, those killed by Muslim extremists and those in the crusades for a start.
2 - Not so many Africans dying of HIV because the pope tells them not to wear condoms

Perhaps we need less people anyway. Perhaps another Christian inspired cull is needed.

 

[ppuado]

Well if we are talking about God of the bible If the God of the bible exists, and used the prophet to communicate with Jews and to record it, gave us Jesus for who brought the good news, again all recorded, then it stands to reason that it tells us about who God is, what is acceptable and unacceptable, his nature and about heaven and hell. It ain't that difficult, you could always read it for yourself :-0

So like I said, if I'm wrong big deal, but if I'm not, well....

OK - one more time. Why should I be worried ?

 

[DionysusToast]

So like I said, if I'm wrong big deal, but if I'm not, well....

Go on, finish the sentence. What happens to people that don't believe? Do they go to hell?

 

[options]

Err ... Hitler was a Christian and the Third Reich was not an atheist putsch. And neither were the Russian and Chinese revolutions. And well, Pol Pot was just insanity in a world of constant death and fear created by American carpet bombing.

Vast difference between Christians and Catholics. AND. "By 1919, a key protégé of Pope Pius, Eugenio Pacelli, had already selected a suitable candidate for the church in Germany ---a young fiercely Catholic intelligence officer named Adolf Hitler who Pacelli meet at least once a week during the early years in Munich as both Hitler’s patron and financier as well as his controller." http://one-evil.org/acts_holocaust/acts_vatican_holocaust.htm

 

[dcraig1]

Vast difference between Christians and Catholics.

I've suspected this from time to time. I've always found the best repellent for religious kooks knocking on your door is to tell 'em you're a Catholic - works every time without fail. That copy of Watchtower is stowed quicker than you can say 'salvation'.