Zenda
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Gandoo makes between 20 and 50 points a day - well done - now is that at 1p per point or £50 per point - as the latter would impress me!!! - if only these posts were not so vague and meaningless, is that a dummy account or a real account - is it............ I could carry on!!
Gordon Gekko
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stevet said:
TheBramble
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Doesn't really matter if it's 1p or £50 per point - 20-50pts/day is impressive all by itself - whatever your trading capital.Zenda said:
CityTrader
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coming from someone who can't even spell Manhattan I actually agree 100% with what you say- pretty much exactly my argument of a few months ago ( think i used " learn to be a dentist" as an example!!)
Gordon Gekko said:
PurplePerson
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"...is there anyone here who does actually make a living from spreadbetting? If so, i'd love to know how they do it..."
Yes. Sort of.
Since quitting the day job 6+ years ago and trading UK shares for a living, about half-to-two-thirds of my income comes from trading shares (mostly mid-sized ones) and one-third-to-half comes from s/bets on similar stocks. The trading/betting mix varies.
Creech - I am concerned that you believe you know why you lost. You are probably wrong! Unfortunately it is always possible to assume the reason was identifiable. But when you fix the known fault and it still fails - that's when you realise there are several other reasons involved. There is no substitute for actually doing it for real - but with a scaled-down stake. I started at £2pt for several months. Then £10pt max for a year. And kept very very detailed daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly analyses of every aspect, so I could see if I was getting better or worse and could tweak things.
As others have said, you won't grasp what it is that bookies do to make life awkward unless you actually do it for real. But the asymmetric skewing of quotes and the 'surprise' triggering of stops will soon register!
The onscreen demo always shows their quote symetrically straddling the market price, at the opening and the closing of your bet. In real life their quote will almost always be skewed off-centre in the direction the market is moving, and if the market reverses their skew will shift the other way. The market may only have swung 1p, but if they were quoting say 2p 'upstream' and now reverse to 2p downstream, their quote wil have moved several pence more than the market, losing you more than you expected. Their quotes can be annoyingly skewed far enough to trigger your stop if it's close by (and price spikes can be engineered to catch wider stops). Electronic trading platforms can inexplicablty fail at vital moments (doesn't affect me - neither do house stops because I don't use them). For a year I ran a series of bets in parallel for a while - half of each bet with a house stop, and half without. Omitting stops saved me £4600 in a year! That is a big enough saving to help compensate for getting caught occasionally by a non-stopped bet (though I am not advocating anyone do the same - it just suits me).
And don't forget that when they boast how narrow their added spread might be, they are usually adding that to the full market spread - whereas most share traders expect to get inside market spread. So it's not always a good comparison.
I reached a stage where, at £10pt and up to 30+ trades open, I banked £19k in as many weeks (ie an average gain of 100 points per week) and was sure I had cracked it. I hadn't. It was just a good run, and my overconfidence caught me out in the weeks that followed. It takes yonks to fathom the most appropriate stake-sizing and other ratios, and to deduce which timescales best suits your personality. (My mind doesn't tick over fast enough to do serious daytrading or scalping live with big stakes - I need something slower that I don't feel rushed by. Most of my bets are quarterlies and a few weeklies (though most are closed before expiry). I don't touch indices, nor foreign stocks. I do occasionally scalp the odd £50 with a bet (or a share trade) lasting minutes or hours - but very rarely.
Nobody else's system suits me. And only your system will suit you, because personality is a vital ingredient and we all differ. Even the best readymade system will need customising.
My old P2/W95 PC with modem isp dialup and cutoffs is not up to handling the best platforms - so I trade by phone (and that's no problem to me).
What I do is likely to sound utterly unsuitable to many. But it suits me. I make nearly half my living from it, and if I was prepared to watch the screen fulltime (which I prefer not to) I could use s/bets for my whole income.
Yes. Sort of.
Since quitting the day job 6+ years ago and trading UK shares for a living, about half-to-two-thirds of my income comes from trading shares (mostly mid-sized ones) and one-third-to-half comes from s/bets on similar stocks. The trading/betting mix varies.
Creech - I am concerned that you believe you know why you lost. You are probably wrong! Unfortunately it is always possible to assume the reason was identifiable. But when you fix the known fault and it still fails - that's when you realise there are several other reasons involved. There is no substitute for actually doing it for real - but with a scaled-down stake. I started at £2pt for several months. Then £10pt max for a year. And kept very very detailed daily/weekly/monthly/quarterly analyses of every aspect, so I could see if I was getting better or worse and could tweak things.
As others have said, you won't grasp what it is that bookies do to make life awkward unless you actually do it for real. But the asymmetric skewing of quotes and the 'surprise' triggering of stops will soon register!
The onscreen demo always shows their quote symetrically straddling the market price, at the opening and the closing of your bet. In real life their quote will almost always be skewed off-centre in the direction the market is moving, and if the market reverses their skew will shift the other way. The market may only have swung 1p, but if they were quoting say 2p 'upstream' and now reverse to 2p downstream, their quote wil have moved several pence more than the market, losing you more than you expected. Their quotes can be annoyingly skewed far enough to trigger your stop if it's close by (and price spikes can be engineered to catch wider stops). Electronic trading platforms can inexplicablty fail at vital moments (doesn't affect me - neither do house stops because I don't use them). For a year I ran a series of bets in parallel for a while - half of each bet with a house stop, and half without. Omitting stops saved me £4600 in a year! That is a big enough saving to help compensate for getting caught occasionally by a non-stopped bet (though I am not advocating anyone do the same - it just suits me).
And don't forget that when they boast how narrow their added spread might be, they are usually adding that to the full market spread - whereas most share traders expect to get inside market spread. So it's not always a good comparison.
I reached a stage where, at £10pt and up to 30+ trades open, I banked £19k in as many weeks (ie an average gain of 100 points per week) and was sure I had cracked it. I hadn't. It was just a good run, and my overconfidence caught me out in the weeks that followed. It takes yonks to fathom the most appropriate stake-sizing and other ratios, and to deduce which timescales best suits your personality. (My mind doesn't tick over fast enough to do serious daytrading or scalping live with big stakes - I need something slower that I don't feel rushed by. Most of my bets are quarterlies and a few weeklies (though most are closed before expiry). I don't touch indices, nor foreign stocks. I do occasionally scalp the odd £50 with a bet (or a share trade) lasting minutes or hours - but very rarely.
Nobody else's system suits me. And only your system will suit you, because personality is a vital ingredient and we all differ. Even the best readymade system will need customising.
My old P2/W95 PC with modem isp dialup and cutoffs is not up to handling the best platforms - so I trade by phone (and that's no problem to me).
What I do is likely to sound utterly unsuitable to many. But it suits me. I make nearly half my living from it, and if I was prepared to watch the screen fulltime (which I prefer not to) I could use s/bets for my whole income.
TheBramble
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Purple - what a great post!
Brilliantly outlines how trading styles can be so different and just how important it is to get one that fits your own style.
I'm glad one of the few who is making profits on a consistent basis from SBing has be so open with how they do it and also simply described the pitfalls of 'added skewness' and 'stop running' shenanigans - and a way (albeit that wouldn't suit every trader) of avoiding the latter.
I suspect Creech, the thread starter, will be a little dismayed at the length of time it's taken to get where you are today, but from a poll earlier this year, I think that's about average.
Good stuff!
Brilliantly outlines how trading styles can be so different and just how important it is to get one that fits your own style.
I'm glad one of the few who is making profits on a consistent basis from SBing has be so open with how they do it and also simply described the pitfalls of 'added skewness' and 'stop running' shenanigans - and a way (albeit that wouldn't suit every trader) of avoiding the latter.
I suspect Creech, the thread starter, will be a little dismayed at the length of time it's taken to get where you are today, but from a poll earlier this year, I think that's about average.
Good stuff!
Trader333
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A couple of people I know who Spreadbet have also told me that having an independant datafeed is of vital importance. In the cases where they have been stopped out by a SB spike, they have then checked their own datafeed and if it is not confirmed they call up and get the stop out removed. This requires taking a screenshot of the live feed but if you have the evidence in front of you they are in a pretty poor position to counter the argument.
Paul
Paul
Zenda
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I second that - Brilliant Post - one of the most sensible appraisals of trading I've read and relate too! As Edwin Lefevre describedit in "Reminiscences of a Stock Operator" - Sitting and holding made the Big Money - not darting in and out." Men who can both be right and sit tight are uncommon. I found it one of the hardest things to learn."
Creech
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Yeah good post Purple. Yes im sure there are aspects that i still have to learn and conquer but I have learnt from my biggest mistake which was my state of mind. Although ive taken time out to read up on the subject i still have alot to learn.
No im dismayed, but i think if you tell anyone contemplating day trading that it'll take you 6 years to make a living from it it would worry them. Besides, Purple states that he doesnt do it fulltime anyway!
No im dismayed, but i think if you tell anyone contemplating day trading that it'll take you 6 years to make a living from it it would worry them. Besides, Purple states that he doesnt do it fulltime anyway!
in all professional occupations, a lengthy apprenticeship is necessary to aquire the skills & experience necessary to obtain & maintain a consistant level of application....unfortunately, trading, unlike other professions, is (to a large degree) a lone, personal individual learning curve which tests the resolve of the most hardened mindset!!....some will adapt quicker than others, but there's no 'short cut/easy ride' in the journey....some will say, you never actually arrive at the 'destination' merely co-exist with the market, playing cat & mouse with each others money!!
Trader333 said:
I've found it essential to have a live feed when SB'ing. As recommended elsewhere I use the live feed (esignal) for TA and trade using the SB platform, the only issue is what to do with stops. I've just opened a CFD account (not yet funded) to see if theres a difference.
Six years to consistency earn sounds a long time to me,
Enzo
Gordon Gekko
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CityTrader said:
Well for someone with as many stars as you I might just well change the spelling. But then again I can't really be bothered to do it for a pompous ex-city guy who couldn't cut the mustard and now "spread bets" for a living.
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Airthrey Capital
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Gordon Gekko said:
TheBramble
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I like that!Trendie said:
I can see a market developing - "Insult Futures".
PurplePerson
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I see some alarm at the notion of taking six years to get it right. Don't despair - that's not what I meant!
I'm sure folk can get there twice as fast. I just meant I've been making a living from shares for that long. Still learning though. Still making modifications.
There is a book out at the moment called "In Praise Of Slow" which I've not seen, but the title tallies with my preferred easy-does-it lowest-tech lifestyle. I frequently log off and wander away, checking positions every 2-3 hours - which would be fatal for the daytrader of course. I vary my stake size according to how much attention the position is going to get or require from me.
And as for being fulltime - it is my sole source of wealth/income. Part of the learning curve involves becoming more efficient. Most people would understandably choose to use that improved efficiency to squeeze greater returns from the same working week. My lazier instinct has always been to reduce my working week, as long as I make enough to live on. Initially I worked every available hour of every day at it, but eventually found I could condense my trading into about a third of the time.
The choice then was whether to trade a third of each day, or of each week, each month, each year. Having tried each, I prefer the third-of-each-year pattern, in which I work intensively at it for the 4 winter months Nov-Dec-Jan-Feb, with the intention of making enough to tide me over Mar-Oct with minimal activity. Last winter my time was interrupted and I fell short, so I'm indoors trading when it rains, and logging on enough to keep in touch with others.
This month's lousy weather means I am trading/betting most of each day. Must go check my positions now..
I'm sure folk can get there twice as fast. I just meant I've been making a living from shares for that long. Still learning though. Still making modifications.
There is a book out at the moment called "In Praise Of Slow" which I've not seen, but the title tallies with my preferred easy-does-it lowest-tech lifestyle. I frequently log off and wander away, checking positions every 2-3 hours - which would be fatal for the daytrader of course. I vary my stake size according to how much attention the position is going to get or require from me.
And as for being fulltime - it is my sole source of wealth/income. Part of the learning curve involves becoming more efficient. Most people would understandably choose to use that improved efficiency to squeeze greater returns from the same working week. My lazier instinct has always been to reduce my working week, as long as I make enough to live on. Initially I worked every available hour of every day at it, but eventually found I could condense my trading into about a third of the time.
The choice then was whether to trade a third of each day, or of each week, each month, each year. Having tried each, I prefer the third-of-each-year pattern, in which I work intensively at it for the 4 winter months Nov-Dec-Jan-Feb, with the intention of making enough to tide me over Mar-Oct with minimal activity. Last winter my time was interrupted and I fell short, so I'm indoors trading when it rains, and logging on enough to keep in touch with others.
This month's lousy weather means I am trading/betting most of each day. Must go check my positions now..
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