Price

Someone commented that this is not necessarily the case. The instrument might matter a lot. So how does it? Are the people who trade the EUR/USD any different from those who trade the ES? Or those who trade the GBP/JPY? Isn't human psychology (which basically drives the markets) the same? Why would the instrument make a difference, or are their specifics to each market?

Those in favour and those against, let me hear your arguments :)

My view is that there are a few different drivers of potential price action (ppa) that traders and investors would react to.

For example, the ES may move on the reaction to above/below earnings estimates or like today on the Microsoft/Yahoo news.

This reaction may not necessarily be fully reflected in the relevant FX crosses, STIR, Bond Futures, PM or Commodity Futures.

Similarly, there are specific drivers of ppa in the ags eg crop damage that may not be reflected in other markets.
 
EURUSD - 60mins - my thoughts.
 

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Wasp said:
Certainly did and the HrH and HrL certainly helped ascertain direction although that is also lagging to a degree. How does one decipher, in real time, just how likely the R will hold?



I believe working with time would help allot. In the case of the chart "cable2" we know that 24 is a solid time pivot.
Take a look at the chart again.
 

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That's amazing how that works out and it's not something I've even thought about before. How did you come about it and, more importantly, is it working out?

Well it is working out with paper trading. I wish I could say I was trading with real money but I am going trough a divorce right now and all money I did have in my accounts got used for "stuff" to do with the divorce.
Funny thing is I didn't trade well before all of the marriage problems. Going through what I did from it I had to learn LOTS and LOTS of patients. When my head started to clear I decided I would continue to learn as much as I could about trading before starting to paper trade again.
After about a year I started to paper trade again. Turns out that learning about "timing" the market and using my new found patients worked wonders for me. I no longer over trade and from March to June this year a had 27 out of 29 good trades in the forex for an 800% return. Not bragging as it was only on paper. Then again from July to September almost as good. 23 of 27 600% return. I hope very much to be in a place where I can start trading live again by the first of the year.

Now the question is where did I learn about timing the market?
Simple answer: Gann

Long answer: Before when I was trading not so well, i just about worshipped Gann. After getting back to learning about trading I started going back over things I had learned and looking deeper into "Gann" and other stuff. I started to understand that no matter how good Gann or any one else was I had to put the time and EFFORT into learning all on my own. When that happened I decided to stop learning about how other people trade and or traded, and learn about myself. No more Gann or anyone else just me and ideas I got from looking at charts. Now when I get an idea I will see how it works on as much price history as I can get my hands on. If I like it then I start working it into a trading plan. Then I start paper trading it, and then God willing, I will start trading it in my live account.
The only true hold over from Gann is that I believe that TIME is more important than price. As such I spend much more time looking at "time" on charts than price.

Funny thing is I can't find a whole lot here at Trade2Win about how I time the markets so I am thinking about starting a thread just to explain how I personally look at timing.
 
Well it is working out with paper trading. I wish I could say I was trading with real money but I am going trough a divorce right now and all money I did have in my accounts got used for "stuff" to do with the divorce.
Funny thing is I didn't trade well before all of the marriage problems. Going through what I did from it I had to learn LOTS and LOTS of patients. When my head started to clear I decided I would continue to learn as much as I could about trading before starting to paper trade again.
After about a year I started to paper trade again. Turns out that learning about "timing" the market and using my new found patients worked wonders for me. I no longer over trade and from March to June this year a had 27 out of 29 good trades in the forex for an 800% return. Not bragging as it was only on paper. Then again from July to September almost as good. 23 of 27 600% return. I hope very much to be in a place where I can start trading live again by the first of the year.

Now the question is where did I learn about timing the market?
Simple answer: Gann

Long answer: Before when I was trading not so well, i just about worshipped Gann. After getting back to learning about trading I started going back over things I had learned and looking deeper into "Gann" and other stuff. I started to understand that no matter how good Gann or any one else was I had to put the time and EFFORT into learning all on my own. When that happened I decided to stop learning about how other people trade and or traded, and learn about myself. No more Gann or anyone else just me and ideas I got from looking at charts. Now when I get an idea I will see how it works on as much price history as I can get my hands on. If I like it then I start working it into a trading plan. Then I start paper trading it, and then God willing, I will start trading it in my live account.
The only true hold over from Gann is that I believe that TIME is more important than price. As such I spend much more time looking at "time" on charts than price.

Funny thing is I can't find a whole lot here at Trade2Win about how I time the markets so I am thinking about starting a thread just to explain how I personally look at timing.


I think time or timing plays a hell of a big part in PA on all TFs. I personally think this relates back to order flow. Logic tells me that order flow/L11/DOM are the essence of the chart, this is where the real story of the chart is unfolding.

I'm no expert in flow matters, i remember on ET, Jack Hershay uploaded a questionaire about the DOM, there were about 10 questions about various tactics played out on the DOM......i didn't know the answer to one of them, i need to learn more.


Edit: Just to put you in the picture and make myself feel better, nobody answered them. He he he.
 
I started to understand that no matter how good Gann or any one else was I had to put the time and EFFORT into learning all on my own. When that happened I decided to stop learning about how other people trade and or traded, and learn about myself. No more Gann or anyone else just me and ideas I got from looking at charts.

Well said. (y) Frame it and send it to all the newbies here!

The only true hold over from Gann is that I believe that TIME is more important than price. As such I spend much more time looking at "time" on charts than price.

Thought-provoking to say the least...

Funny thing is I can't find a whole lot here at Trade2Win about how I time the markets so I am thinking about starting a thread just to explain how I personally look at timing.

Yeah, good point. But there isn't much to be found elsewhere neither afaik...
 
You have definitely got me interested so a thread on it would get my viewing.

Agreed. Can i just put one suggestion forward, it would be ashame to spoil the flow of this thread, so let this thread flow into the subject of price/time related trading. What does one think?:)
 
Well said. (y) Frame it and send it to all the newbies here!



Thought-provoking to say the least...



Yeah, good point. But there isn't much to be found elsewhere neither afaik...



FW, you are correct in what you said about being dumb money. I did think about the statement after i posted it, how could i have ever thought anything else.:)

Cheers.

PS. I feel so much more vunerable and insecure about my trading today. He he he.
 
For anyone who doesn't think S/R works in forex. Get a M5 or M15 or M30 etc. EURUSD chart for example, and draw horizontal lines from the close price of a candle from which price turns direction.

Extend these lines to the point that a candle closes above or below these lines, and then start a new horizontal line from the next/new point that a candle closes and price changes direction from this point.
It is surprising how often price makes a full retrace to the last S or R level, even after a sudden trend in one direction.

The sticky points tend to be at S or R, as price struggles to decide whether to go up or down, as the battle between shorters & longers rages. If there is no S or R inbetween an up or down move, a full retracement can be quite quick and struggle free.

And when a S or R level falls, see how quickly price will often rush on to test the next one.
 
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Agreed. Can i just put one suggestion forward, it would be ashame to spoil the flow of this thread, so let this thread flow into the subject of price/time related trading. What does one think?:)

I am happy with that, its an interesting road and moreso than buy at X and the usual fluff... continue! :smart:
 
Now that makes me feel like 'dumb' money.

No you are not dumb and the word PRO's should be replaced with BIG HITTERS.

if it was not because of access to first hand INFO many of so called pro's would fail to outperform the dumb money as you put it .
Donot give too much credibility to BIG HITTERS till you know more about their P/L. Grey1
 
I spotted this one last night. wish I had posted it then. I know wasp likes GJ.
there are 2 components to S/R. recognising the correct levels, then assessing whether it holds or breaks.

EDIT: when did you revert back to wasp from swee-pylon-thingummy? (rhetorical; dont want to take off-topic)
 

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... I believe that TIME is more important than price. As such I spend much more time looking at "time" on charts than price.

This intrigues and amazes me. I know the 24 candle distance on cable over last 2 weeks has played in tune with the rejections of resistance and again at a temporary swing point in conjunction with LrH, but it also comfortably just coincides well with US opening so the blend of the EU/UK/US bank traders, thus making it a busy time.

Another thing, is 24 the key or does it change, and if so, how do you know when early enough to take advantage from it? I know you said you look at time more than price but one without solid info from the other seems to be shooting oneself in the foot.

Sorry, but I am just a sceptical git at times but not to say not interested.
 
FW, you are correct in what you said about being dumb money. I did think about the statement after i posted it, how could i have ever thought anything else.:)

Cheers.

PS. I feel so much more vunerable and insecure about my trading today. He he he.

No need to feel like "dumb money". The public has one major advantage over the pros - the public doesn't HAVE to trade.

If a currency is threatening economic conditions or the markets are in freefall, a government or country HAS to intervene. They have no option in serious cases but to come in as a buyer or seller.

Likewise with producers. They have to hedge their inventory to offset their risk.

The same with dealers and floor traders. They HAVE to take the other side of customer orders. And they don't always get it right.

In 1980 many producers and floor traders went belly up during the massive rise in Gold and Silver. Producers who had the physical metal and went short futures, were screwed as the more the prices moved up, the more margin they needed and to make matters worse, they receive no credit for holding their physical goods. This is a very serious problem.

Imagine you had £1m in Gold to sell and I agreed to buy it off you in 3 months time. So the only logical thing to do if you are happy with £1m for your holding is to sell the futures so that the price you will get is fixed (or as close as can be).

If the futures go down, you will make money on the short side to offset the lower price you will get when you come to sell your physical holding.

However, if gold starts to go up massively, although you will get more money when you sell, you suddenly have a broker (via the exchange) demanding money to keep your short position going. One big hedger of gold in the run up, had to pay $10m PER DAY just to hold his short position. Now if you don't have the capital, you are in a whole lot of trouble.

But forget even the hedgers. The locals on the floor at the time were also massively caught as prices went up so fast they never had time to get out of their short positions at a profit.

So what I am trying to say is that even the pros that are right in the thick of the action cannot safeguard against everything and are not always right. They just have TRICKS.

It amazes me that the biggest advantage that the public has is this ability not to have to trade and to wait for only the best opportunities before making there commitment and yet they squander this by over trading in order to make money faster. With the net result that they lose money faster.

Its interesting that we have mentioned time because my favourite quote is from Jesse Livermore: "Time is not money. Time is time and money is money".

We are ingrained from an early age that the more time you spend working at something the more money you make. The more hours you work the more you get paid etc.

When I teach new traders they are always dismayed at how few and far between the really good signals are. "What?!", they say, "you mean I have to sit here for a few days just waiting?! But there are massive moves every day...just look at gbp/jpy it's gone up 200 pips and then back down 200 while we've been talking..."

This concept is totally wrong in trading. Yes you do have to put many hours in at the beginning but once you know what you are doing, you can make a years salary in 10 minutes. Then sit back and do nothing for days, weeks, months until the next opportunity strikes.

Time is just the interval until the next trade. It has nothing to do with how much you will earn.
 
No you are not dumb and the word PRO's should be replaced with BIG HITTERS.

if it was not because of access to first hand INFO many of so called pro's would fail to outperform the dumb money as you put it .
Donot give too much credibility to BIG HITTERS till you know more about their P/L. Grey1

I agree PROS is the wrong word, they are just people with more money than us and thus have more impact on the market. To say they are better or outsmarting others is misinformed. (just look at gammajammer!! ;)) plus all the reasons trade_dante just posted much better than I!
 
No you are not dumb and the word PRO's should be replaced with BIG HITTERS.

if it was not because of access to first hand INFO many of so called pro's would fail to outperform the dumb money as you put it .
Donot give too much credibility to BIG HITTERS till you know more about their P/L. Grey1


Yes, i think it made me think about all the information i don't know or can't get hold of. But i suppose good trading can be done through just being able to adapt to the simplest forms of imformation.
 
I know Gammajammer constantly goes on about the huge amount of information he has at his fingertips which dwarfs the info retailers can access... Does it make him a better trader? Does he always profit and succeed more than most? Is having more information an advantage?

I think we will always be on their tails because of this and the huge amounts of capital at their disposal but not to say we can't use what we have (the chart and understanding of the participants actions as they unfold) to our advantage still and be in tune with the market.

True order flow and volume would help but I have read a lot recently about volume trickery?
 
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Trying to compare "institutional" with "retail" traders is a lost cause IMO

Different objectives, skillsets, all sorts. Both buy and sell instruments with the intention of making a profit, that is about all they have in common.
 
Trying to compare "institutional" with "retail" traders is a lost cause IMO

Different objectives, skillsets, all sorts. Both buy and sell instruments with the intention of making a profit, that is about all they have in common.

Maybe so and yes, goals are different but as they are part of those that move the market, their goals, behavior and psychology is paramount to understand in order to be more 'in tune'.
 
Maybe so and yes, goals are different but as they are part of those that move the market, their goals, behavior and psychology is paramount to understand in order to be more 'in tune'.


Agreed. Ok, all the market info a trader could ever get his hands on, an apparent aladins cave, but, do think some smarty pants could just turn round and say...."so what, you have all this info, but look at the chart.....it's all there, being played out right in front of your eyes."?
 
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